Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Jippy

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Just the CCJ, the 15k holiday expense report, and enquiry into cronyism this week then for Boris.
It's remarkable, but then I guess he has his own iron dome in the form of the media, who've been on all-out attack mode on Starmer for the past week or so.

The Cameron/Greensill grubbiness has not stuck at all as yet more Tory sleaze.
 

Sweet Square

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Just the CCJ, the 15k holiday expense report, and enquiry into cronyism this week then for Boris.
It's remarkable, but then I guess he has his own iron dome in the form of the media, who've been on all-out attack mode on Starmer for the past week or so.

The Cameron/Greensill grubbiness has not stuck at all as yet more Tory sleaze.
Replace life threatening diseases with tory sleaze.



still the vaccine bounce.:nervous:
:lol:
 

villain

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It's remarkable, but then I guess he has his own iron dome in the form of the media, who've been on all-out attack mode on Starmer for the past week or so.

The Cameron/Greensill grubbiness has not stuck at all as yet more Tory sleaze.
That's a good metaphor, the media in this country is ridiculously biased.
I'm no fan of Starmer but the fact he is so far behind this government is inexplicable without external factors such as the media.

The country is broken.
 

Jippy

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That's a good metaphor, the media in this country is ridiculously biased.
I'm no fan of Starmer but the fact he is so far behind this government is inexplicable without external factors such as the media.

The country is broken.
The media attacks are clearly working, but Starmer is making it too easy for them. The Corbyn hatchet jobs were so often hysterical, with him pictured next to an ex-IRA guy or 'dancing' on way to the Cenotaph etc, but with Starmer's blandness and apparent lack of policies, the likes of the DM can slay him with more balanced pieces, at least on the face of it. It's a more insidious chipping away at his support, like this in the DM today.

JANET STREET-PORTER: I've backed Labour all my life but like a lot of decent people in the middle I now have nobody to vote for
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...T-PORTER-Ive-backed-Labour-life-vote-for.html
 

villain

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The media attacks are clearly working, but Starmer is making it too easy for them. The Corbyn hatchet jobs were so often hysterical, with him pictured next to an ex-IRA guy or 'dancing' on way to the Cenotaph etc, but with Starmer's blandness and apparent lack of policies, the likes of the DM can slay him with more balanced pieces, at least on the face of it. It's a more insidious chipping away at his support, like this in the DM today.

JANET STREET-PORTER: I've backed Labour all my life but like a lot of decent people in the middle I now have nobody to vote for
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...T-PORTER-Ive-backed-Labour-life-vote-for.html
It's a truly disastrous strategy because he's actively worked to cast out the left in order to cater to what he & his team perceive as 'working class votes' (there's overlap there, but no point getting into that discussion) and he's not exactly courted those in a higher social class either, apparently wearing a good suit isn't enough despite what we heard about Corbyn.

I can't see what the end goal is, or the purpose.
 

Fluctuation0161

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That's a good metaphor, the media in this country is ridiculously biased.
I'm no fan of Starmer but the fact he is so far behind this government is inexplicable without external factors such as the media.

The country is broken.
This is true. I just wish more Labour members/supporters/MPs understood this before Starmer.

Rather than sabotaging their own campaign under Corbyn.
 

villain

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This is true. I just wish more Labour members/supporters/MPs understood this before Starmer.

Rather than sabotaging their own campaign under Corbyn.
We could see it with Miliband even, his momentum was halted by the way he ate a sandwich ffs. The warning signs were there 6/7 years ago.
It became relentless under Corbyn for multiple reasons, and shows no signs of stopping under Starmer.

I was hoping the tide would turn whenever Murdoch finally dies, but the Heads of a lot of these institutions just coincidently happen to be heavily involved with the Tory party too, so this will just continue. Or perhaps the electorate will somehow educate themselves, but that seems even less likely.
 

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We could see it with Miliband even, his momentum was halted by the way he ate a sandwich ffs. The warning signs were there 6/7 years ago.
It became relentless under Corbyn for multiple reasons, and shows no signs of stopping under Starmer.

I was hoping the tide would turn whenever Murdoch finally dies, but the Heads of a lot of these institutions just coincidently happen to be heavily involved with the Tory party too, so this will just continue. Or perhaps the electorate will somehow educate themselves, but that seems even less likely.
The irony of Jewish Labour leader Ed Milliband being slaughtered in the press for eating a bacon sandwich wrong. Then under the next leader the same press slaughter Labour for being "anti semitic".

It is a sick joke that everyone doesn't see the UK media are in bed with the Tories.
 

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Nothing, they're just letting their bias against the left mean the answer to every question is purge the left, it's cutein a way. Centrism is in a bad way the last week they're all very confused about what nonsense position to take so they can get back to their apparent intellectual high ground.

The votes are in that magical place where you pretend to be from neither the left or right as if political leaning is more important than the popularity of actual policy.
Thats lovely but actually the winning votes are in places where you have to attract a broad coalition of people, which has to include people who may not usually have a great allegiance to your party or ideology.
 

Smores

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Thats lovely but actually the winning votes are in places where you have to attract a broad coalition of people, which has to include people who may not usually have a great allegiance to your party or ideology.
Yeah you miss the point, you don't win their vote by pretending (and transparently so) to be the embodiment of triangulation you win it by presenting policy that has wide appeal.

No one likes the empty suit led by focus groups.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Yeah you miss the point, you don't win their vote by pretending (and transparently so) to be the embodiment of triangulation you win it by presenting policy that has wide appeal.

No one likes the empty suit led by focus groups.
Agreed.

Although I'm fairly sure @nickm votes Tory. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

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for the interminable "working class" vote debate, some excellent and comprehensive new data -


 

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Guarantee that Starmer is going to use it to separate himself from the “woke” crowd because he knows Piers will be frothing at the fanny to bring it up.
 

nickm

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Why do you even support Labour? Why don't you just join the Tories or the lib dems, you're clearly not in any way left wing so why be a part of an inherently left wing movement?
Can't fecking stand the Tories, I don't like inherited power and I would like a decent alternative that gives more people a decent shot in life. I'm suspicious of ideology in general, it can be as much a straitjacket as means of understanding. Fact is, there are lots of people like myself that you need to vote for you.
 

nickm

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Yeah you miss the point, you don't win their vote by pretending (and transparently so) to be the embodiment of triangulation you win it by presenting policy that has wide appeal.

No one likes the empty suit led by focus groups.
You don't need lots of detailed policy at this point in the electoral cycle and getting hung up on specific policy now, is a mistake. But I grant you, people do need to understand what the party stands for, the values that will shape the policies that will come later, and Labour are a million miles from that at the moment.
 

nickm

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Agreed.

Although I'm fairly sure @nickm votes Tory. Correct me if I am wrong.
You may stand corrected, I don't. Although I do unfortunately live in a heavily Tory area, so my vote is more symbolic than useful.

I might add, just because I think I sometimes understand why the Tories win, doesn't make me a Tory. I'd suggest if more people on the left spent a bit more time trying to unpack why Tories win, and Labour loses, rather than whining about how unfair everything is, then maybe they'd start to make some progress.
 

nickm

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It seems fairly clear this is an ideological disagreement, which is fine, but I can't see us finding much common ground.

You admit that you're happy for Starmer to serve a similar role to Kinnock and basically sacrifice short term electoral success to wage an internal war on the left of his own party. You justify this because you believe there is no other path to electoral success than to purge the left and set the groundwork for a charismatic centrist leader to take advantage when the economic and political climate allows.
What I think is there is an element of the left that is and has always been electoral kryptonite, and for the sake of Labour's prospects as a whole, needs to be kept in some kind of check. When that element of the party defines labour, as it did at the start of Kinnock's leadership, and throughout Corbyn's, Labour becomes unelectable. This is an evidence based position.

Whilst I agree that there isn't currently any leadership candidates that seem viable and electoral success in the short term for a left of centre party wouldn't be easy, I don't see any merit electorally or morally for Starmer's current internal war with the left. I also think it's morally bankrupt when you consider that Starmer was elected by Labour members and given a mandate based on his 10 pledges, with party unity being at the forefront of his campaign. Even if I did agree that purging the left was the only way to electability, as a believer in democracy I would still be against doing that without a mandate from the members.
Well maybe. I guess the alternative argument is that it's do or die for Labour as demographics change. This may not be just a battle for electability, this may be a battle about whether there is going to a Labour Party at all. That should be focusing minds.

Anyway I think we fundamentally disagree on the merits of centrism and I don't think either of us will change the other's mind. Fundamentally I'm not prepared for the Labour party's position to be calibrated to wherever the Conservatives and their supporting media class happen to he at the time, because there's too much at stake. I also think that in the period of climate emergency and late stage capitalism that we're living through, finding a mythical centre ground is impossible when real conditions for an increasing size of the population continue to get worse.

To end on a note of agreement, at least we (and the electorate) both agree that Starmer is fairly useless.
I get you want something super inspirational and idealistic that rallies people to the cause and I understand why you are suspicious of centrism as a result. I'm just not sure there are enough voters who agree. I'd add I think critics of "centrism" (whatever that is really) mostly confuse aims and means but that's another discussion.
 

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Can't fecking stand the Tories, I don't like inherited power and I would like a decent alternative that gives more people a decent shot in life. I'm suspicious of ideology in general, it can be as much a straitjacket as means of understanding. Fact is, there are lots of people like myself that you need to vote for you.
Nah, you should vote lib dems. Stop trying to wreck the Labour party with your nasty neo lib views and move on.
 

nickm

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Nah, you should vote lib dems. Stop trying to wreck the Labour party with your nasty neo lib views and move on.
Oh man. Telling people who have voted for you, and would like to vote for you again, to feck off... Absolutely priceless. Thanks for illustrating beautifully why attitudes like yours are such a problem.

Truth is, the last election wrecked labour but no, the problem is there isn't enough of the more of the same, apparently.
 
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nickm

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Based on his tweet, Starmer's borrowing Biden's plan to halve child poverty. Hopefully he'll make a speech in the next few weeks explaining which half of child poverty he plans to keep.
Since labour won't be in power to reduce child poverty by 1% let along 50%, rest assured the party's moral purity will remain uncompromised.
 

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"You and your paper can feck off."
Starmer's third relaunch of his first year as leader is titled Progressive Britain.

The 10 pledges have been officially binned and the first proposed policy is to means test Universal Basic Income.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Starmer's third relaunch of his first year as leader is titled Progressive Britain.

The 10 pledges have been officially binned and the first proposed policy is to means test Universal Basic Income.
It has taken over a year of covertly breaking those pledges. Now he is officially breaking his promise to the Labour membership.
 

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You have to judge each manifesto in its own right and it's definitely true that while Labour's policies seemed to be popular there's still a big difference between a list of popular policies and a plan the electorate feel is credible.

All that said, seeing Labour completely abandon a progressive platform that quickly would be extremely disheartening. Especially as I don't even think it will actually make them more electable.
 

Boycott

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Nah, you should vote lib dems. Stop trying to wreck the Labour party with your nasty neo lib views and move on.
Go out in the real world and start attacking people like that and see how it gets you. Nobody uses these cringe political compass terms like to win an argument besides online echo chambers.

The Labour Party has been elected once in 40 years. This country is socially conservative. That's just the fact of the matter. That's one of the problems with young left-wing activists now is I notice they have this fetish for a 20th century class struggle among the 'working class' which was staunchly economically left-wing but also overwhelmingly white and male. Even when Labour was proudly economic left-wing, their 'working class' as it was in those days (older industrial workers) were a lot more socially conservative than the average Labour voter now. Economics mattered exponentially more then when socially people weren't separated much in their views in spite of class. As Labour have shifted to more inclusive social policies they have subsequently lost ground among their former strongholds. It's that which has lost Labour their heartlands to the Tories, not economics. I don't believe a regression from Labour in social policy will change anything either, nor do I want it.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Wins leadership contest promising to build on the 2017 manifesto.

After an appalling council and local election results, ran with no policies, within 1 year state that the manifesto everyone is still waiting for will not be based on anything from 2017.

Electable?