Kobe Bryant - What’s his legacy?

[oates]

That is true, and it is very possible that this could have gone to trial had Kobe been represented by a shitty public defender (criminal charges are almost always prosecuted by a public prosecutor on behalf of the state and they are very good at what they do). It is a shame that wealth guarantees good representation; both parties should be represented in court with excellent counsel.

Where I continue to stumble, is that if he was caught dead to rights, then no amount of wealth would have saved the Eagle County prosecutors office from nailing him to a post and riding that high profile conviction to a lucrative federal prosecutors position. That the case didn't even go to trial says something about how solid the case was. If the forensic evidence was overwhelming, the only negotiation that would have occurred would have been the length of Kobe's sentence.

I say this as someone who loved to hate on Kobe while he was alive.

It's a good answer but I'd just like to add that we have no clue what went on during the phase after he was accused. There could be many reasons why the DA didn't take the case to court but I focus I'm afraid on the victim - I feel she was so but that's alleged in some minds - but she began to face some terrible, truly horrible hate, social media, mail, in public and in the media that was led by the defence team's PR team and arm twisting.

Normally it is an horrendous thing to face your rapist in court let alone the hatred of so many fans and the press. That's something that those responsible will never pay for but should feel some guilt over but we know how the world works. Rape cases must have success/failure stats without the pressure all around and who knows how much if at all it pressured the prosecution and victim?

So, he was never found guilty in a law court but you simply cannot have half-consent not being rape and yet pay through the nose not to have a criminal record, you cannot be half-pregnant. You are pregnant at any point of the process.

 

[adexkola]

None of those guys had remotely the stature Kobe did.

I concede that point, and if this trial happened in Southern California instead of rural Colorado, I would also concede the possibility of a prosecutor team declining to go too hard on a local sport hero.

 

[Sara125]

It's a resume booster for lack of a better term, if I'm stuck in a lower profile county prosecutor office I'm begging for the chance to put Kobe away, I'm riding that conviction to a prestigious state or federal prosecutor office.

Many athletes have been prosecuted in the past, for crimes both sexual and non-sexual. Darren Sharper comes to mind immediately. Plaxico Burress got jailed in NY for shooting himself in the leg, if ever there was a case that warranted looking the other way...

And yes I was being sarcastic, but dropping the sarcasm I don't understand why with substantial evidence, a prosecutor would actually decline to prosecute. That's not even considering that this is a country that doesn't hesitate to truck black men through the criminal justice system.

Umm, the actual charge was illegal possession of a firearm...

 

[Jippy]

Obviously this is aimed at me, and I think it's nonsense. I initially asked for people's opinions on the topic, given how many people were claiming him to be the ultimate role model and all round do-gooder. That descended into tit for tat with people quoting me, instead of just ignoring my post(I now understand it's hard to think straight in the depths of grief).

I would hope that anyone that reads the article posted, and other sources, would come to the same conclusion as me, but it seems, as with most celebs, people are willing to just disregard serious things like this when they had some sort of admiration for the accused. I don't have any problem with people talking up him as a player etc., but do you not find it a bit strange having people proclaim him as the ultimate role model, given what you've(I assume) read?

Most people I saw were just hailing him as a basketball great, not a saint.

 

[Jippy]

Obviously this is aimed at me, and I think it's nonsense. I initially asked for people's opinions on the topic, given how many people were claiming him to be the ultimate role model and all round do-gooder. That descended into tit for tat with people quoting me, instead of just ignoring my post(I now understand it's hard to think straight in the depths of grief).

I would hope that anyone that reads the article posted, and other sources, would come to the same conclusion as me, but it seems, as with most celebs, people are willing to just disregard serious things like this when they had some sort of admiration for the accused. I don't have any problem with people talking up him as a player etc., but do you not find it a bit strange having people proclaim him as the ultimate role model, given what you've(I assume) read?

You can give over with the patronising nonsense too.

 

[Ødegaard]

Having read the links provided, I believe the rape accusation to be true.

But his legacy?
I don't follow basketball, but there are some players that even I have heard of: MJ, Iverson, Shaq, James, Magic & Kobe.
I manage to remember that I've read tons of stories about MJ being a absolute asshole.
I remember having read that James has a insanely good reputation on and off the field.

I doubt I'll be able to remember the rape-allegations surrounding Kobe, despite believing them to be true at the moment. But who knows, it might be brought up enough times for it to stick to my memory.

By the looks of things, his legacy will for the most part be untarnished to those who don't follow the sport closely, and a lot of those who follow it don't seem to think they are credible or even appropriate to discuss now when his legacy for most (I assume) will be set. Personally I think things like this should have a effect on views people have of him or anyone in a similar situation. Even if it is just an asterisk for some that don't find it believable.

I'm normally on the side that finds it annoying when someone relatively normal dies and I see some people talk shit about them as quick as possible, so I understand why the decision was made to not allow it to pollute the thread surrounding his death.
I do however sit with a feeling that doing it had been argued for in bad faith (not necessarily the correct term) by some.
To me it has come across as if some, like @Florida Man for example are too touched by the player to accept people genuinely believing and advocating for others to see reasons for Kobe Bryant's alleged wrongdoings. It has even gone as far as mocking peoples reasons to even talking about it, instead of focusing on the severity of the case itself.

I honestly think @DiseaseOfTheAge have a great counter-argument to those who appear to want the discussion of the case shoved under the rug when he wrote:

Protecting people shocked by a famous and beloved person dying from seeing negative things about the person should not take precedent over protecting people, in this case specifically sexual assault survivors, from seeing universal acclaim heaped upon them and nothing about them being credibly accused of raping someone.

The most appropriate time to remind people of the allegation and evidence against Bryant is when people are all talking about him as if it never happened.

To add to this I believe not only the time matters, but the place as well. Which is why I mentioned having it in its own thread feeling as if it is swept under the rug. But I suppose it is easier to moderate it if it is confined to its own topic so I don't think the decision is without reason.

I've tried to go over my post to remove some autocorrect feckups, but I'm not sure if I managed to get them all. I'm also drugged so I might not have been able to articulate my views or thought them through properly.

 

[Conor]

And to miss your snide comments fest?
No.

You are honestly one of the shittest posters on any forum I've been a part of, I don't think I've ever seen a meaningful post from you in 5 years.

 

[momo83]

Because in the end the accuser refused to testify, after receiving hate mail, death threats and had her character and reputation questioned in public by Bryant's legal team.

This goes both ways. Both accusers and accused get their personality and character attacked be defence and prosecution. The accused usually have it made public. In the end one deserves it, one doesn’t. Usually we find out who when the case runs its course.

We can’t believe in innocent until proven guilty only when it suits us.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I doubt I'll be able to remember the rape-allegations surrounding Kobe, despite believing them to be true at the moment. But who knows, it might be brought up enough times for it to stick to my memory.

Isn't this because he is so protected by the public? I do not agree with that reporter being suspended, it was only because of the huge public outcry. Insensitive? Maybe a little bit. But more to do with how she went practically alone against the grain imo.

 

[Ban]

You are honestly one of the shittest posters on any forum I've been a part of, I don't think I've ever seen a meaningful post from you in 5 years.

That strikes my heart. You dont know how much that hurts.


I'm lying, I dont give a slightest damn what you think about me. Actually today's the first time I noticed you exist.

 

[Eboue]

This goes both ways. Both accusers and accused get their personality and character attacked be defence and prosecution. The accused usually have it made public. In the end one deserves it, one doesn’t. Usually we find out who when the case runs its course.

We can’t believe in innocent until proven guilty only when it suits us.

Innocent until proven guilty is for the courts. Obviously the public can form their own opinions.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

It makes the prosecutor's case more difficult, but it is possible to go to trial even if the victim refuses to testify, depending on how strong the evidence is.

So it's feasible that in this case the prosecution knew she wouldn't testify, making their case harder and, as we know how DAs operate, declining to pursue because it would negatively impact their win/loss rate.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Are you someone who judges who should post where?

Are you ever able to form an argument beyond one single sentence? Why can't you debate what you said?

 

[ivaldo]

You are honestly one of the shittest posters on any forum I've been a part of, I don't think I've ever seen a meaningful post from you in 5 years.

Yeah, he's not the one coming across as the shit poster here. You seem intent on rubbing people up the wrong way.

 

[Jim Beam]

What’s interesting to me is that he released a statement in 2003 accepting that she believed she was raped but he believed that to be false. In the modern climate isn’t that accepted as rape, as in its not really for him to decide if it was consensual?

I‘d guess that no lawyer would agree to such a statement today because it wouldn’t wash in the court of public opinion.

He didn't admit it though "I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual ", so that can't be used as any kind of evidence and it would still be on the jury to prove it. Then without her testimony they really don't have anything and that has been presented in the article like a condition before such statement. The woman had filed a separate civil suit against Bryant, and had agreed to dismissal of the sexual-assault charge against him provided the athlete issued the following apology...

I actually liked his persona. And not so much the one during his playing time, but the one that appeared after his basketball career when he looked very content and moving in various directions (something many athletes aren't able to do and I find it a bit pathetic tbh). But yeah, if we do talk about this specific incident, it does look very dodgy considering all the legal and court documents that were leaked.

Correct. Clearly the evidence could not have been that strong or else they would have taken the chance to take it to court and convict him, and would have got her to testify.

Tbf, you will not find many prosecutions in the world who will proceed with a sexual assault if the apparent victim is reluctant, let alone not willing to testify.

My all about this. Will still remember him from what he was in terms of his sporting career and achievements as that can't be disputed or questioned in any way (this incident still can, however you look at it). Also, the way he went about his post-career and just the pure tragedy of yesterday's event. If that makes me in a way ignorant in terms of the incident spoken here, then yeah I could be guilty of that I suppose.

 

[MTF]

This thread is testament to why it was appropriate to limit the discussion in the original thread yesterday.

 

[RobinLFC]

I thought this thread discussed all of his legacy but you mean his positive legacy of course.

Such pettiness. It was clear to everyone that this thread was meant for his fans to mourn his death or post new information about the developing story. It was not started to discuss his legacy, so any debate thereof was off topic and should've been taken to a separate thread.

The only goal of the "he was a rapist" post on the very first page was to provoke his fans and provoke discussion - if you look at his legacy thread right now, it's literally not about his death anymore at all. No one is trying to make him a saint or swipe anything under the carpet, but there's a time and a place for everything - this thread yesterday evening was definitely neither.

 

[adexkola]

It's a good answer but I'd just like to add that we have no clue what went on during the phase after he was accused. There could be many reasons why the DA didn't take the case to court but I focus I'm afraid on the victim - I feel she was so but that's alleged in some minds - but she began to face some terrible, truly horrible hate, social media, mail, in public and in the media that was led by the defence team's PR team and arm twisting.

Normally it is an horrendous thing to face your rapist in court let alone the hatred of so many fans and the press. That's something that those responsible will never pay for but should feel some guilt over but we know how the world works. Rape cases must have success/failure stats without the pressure all around and who knows how much if at all it pressured the prosecution and victim?

So, he was never found guilty in a law court but you simply cannot have half-consent not being rape and yet pay through the nose not to have a criminal record, you cannot be half-pregnant. You are pregnant at any point of the process.

I have no issue with anyone believing he did it, this thread is like one of those roarsche (feck me I can't spell) tests. It is murky enough that it is not surprising that a lot of people believe otherwise because they are Kobe stans (problematic) or because they doubt the actual case (not problematic). The second question is, how should this impact his legacy? How would you want people to remember him?

I agree that witness intimidation could have played a part (another reason why I think that in such cases, identities should not be disclosed).

What I don't agree with is the idea that paying for the best lawyers is an indication that something is off. It's just a reflection of how overworked and undedicated your average public defender is.

This thread is testament to why it was appropriate to limit the discussion in the original thread yesterday.

Absolutely.

So it's feasible that in this case the prosecution knew she wouldn't testify, making their case harder and, as we know how DAs operate, declining to pursue because it would negatively impact their win/loss rate.

If they had legit concerns about their win/loss rate it doesn't give me much confidence in the merits of the case. No case is decided solely on victim testimony.

 

[oates]

Such pettiness. It was clear to everyone that this thread was meant for his fans to mourn his death or post new information about the developing story. It was not started to discuss his legacy, so any debate thereof was off topic and should've been taken to a separate thread.

The only goal of the "he was a rapist" post on the very first page was to provoke his fans and provoke discussion - if you look at his legacy thread right now, it's literally not about his death anymore at all. No one is trying to make him a saint or swipe anything under the carpet, but there's a time and a place for everything - this thread yesterday evening was definitely neither.

I didn't post on this thread yesterday evening but for pettiness maybe you are correct but I believe the censorship here has been seriously dodgy, I'n allowed an opinion but as we know this isn't a democracy.

I'm sorry but you are incorrect in some respect in that other RIP threads have discussed the person's legacy, the inconsistency you will have to admit or look petty yourself is difficult to navigate.

 

[2mufc0]

It's a resume booster for lack of a better term, if I'm stuck in a lower profile county prosecutor office I'm begging for the chance to put Kobe away, I'm riding that conviction to a prestigious state or federal prosecutor office.

Many athletes have been prosecuted in the past, for crimes both sexual and non-sexual. Darren Sharper comes to mind immediately. Plaxico Burress got jailed in NY for shooting himself in the leg, if ever there was a case that warranted looking the other way...

And yes I was being sarcastic, but dropping the sarcasm I don't understand why with substantial evidence, a prosecutor would actually decline to prosecute. That's not even considering that this is a country that doesn't hesitate to truck black men through the criminal justice system.

This is a good point, being a famous black man in America, I have no doubt they would have gone hard at him if they believed they could nail him.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If they had legit concerns about their win/loss rate it doesn't give me much confidence in the merits of the case. No case is decided solely on victim testimony.

No, but it's pretty crucial in a rape case where the only other evidence is forensic, isn't it?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

This is a good point, being a famous black man in America, I have no doubt they would have gone hard at him if they believed they could nail him.

In LA, post OJ? Nah, I don't think so.

 

[oates]

I have no issue with anyone believing he did it, this thread is like one of those roarsche (feck me I can't spell) tests. It is murky enough that it is not surprising that a lot of people believe otherwise because they are Kobe stans (problematic) or because they doubt the actual case (not problematic). The second question is, how should this impact his legacy? How would you want people to remember him?

I agree that witness intimidation could have played a part (another reason why I think that in such cases, identities should not be disclosed).

What I don't agree with is the idea that paying for the best lawyers is an indication that something is off. It's just a reflection of how overworked and undedicated your average public defender is.

I believe his legacy to be kind and honest would be along the lines of being 'gifted and a role model to many young people but ultimately flawed as a human being. At best an adulterer (his marriage began in 2001), at worst not proven a sexual abuser.'

I'm sorry but if you can't see the huge gulf between the defence a rich celebrity/sportsperson can avail of themselves and the support of a stretched Public Prosecutor and how that supports the alleged victim then your goggles are amazingly thick and rose tinted

 

[adexkola]

I didn't post on this thread yesterday evening but for pettiness maybe you are correct but I believe the censorship here has been seriously dodgy, I'n allowed an opinion but as we know this isn't a democracy.

I'm sorry but you are incorrect in some respect in that other RIP threads have discussed the person's legacy, the inconsistency you will have to admit or look petty yourself is difficult to navigate.

How should his legacy be discussed, within the sports world and outside of the sports world?

 

[RobinLFC]

I'm sorry but you are incorrect in some respect in that other RIP threads have discussed the person's legacy, the inconsistency you will have to admit or look petty yourself is difficult to navigate.

I've always thought it was very inappropriate and haven't participated in those discussions, e.g. I have my own opinion about Michael Jackson but I wouldn't go into a "RIP Michael Jackson" thread on the very evening of his death to force that opinion on his mourning fans - what's the fecking point? Like I said, that's not the time nor place.

 

[oates]

How should his legacy be discussed, within the sports world and outside of the sports world?

Kobe is getting credit on the one thread and debit on the other. Should the two never meet?

 

[momo83]

Innocent until proven guilty is for the courts. Obviously the public can form their own opinions.

Dealing with mass viruses are for doctors, but obviously the public can form their own opinion and it should be considered.

 

[Eboue]

Dealing with mass viruses are for doctors, but obviously the public can form their own opinion and it should be considered.

I'm not sure what point you think you are making but its not working.

 

[oates]

I've always thought it was very inappropriate and haven't participated in those discussions, e.g. I have my own opinion about Michael Jackson but I wouldn't go into a "RIP Michael Jackson" thread on the very evening of his death to force that opinion on his mourning fans - what's the fecking point? Like I said, that's not the time nor place.

As I've already said, I didn't post last night and as for the rest then you have your standard, it's a bit of an old one in this time maybe but perhaps we should be allowed to not all be held to yours.

 

[adexkola]

Kobe is getting credit on the one thread and debit on the other. Should the two never meet?

They do, in every obituary I've read! Not one has glossed over the case, that would be dishonest.

If people (not you, just in general) are upset that sport fans are distraught over his passing then they need to stop worrying about other people.

 

[2mufc0]

In LA, post OJ? Nah, I don't think so.

Pretty sure the incident took place in Colorado?

 

[oates]

They do, in every obituary I've read! Not one has glossed over the case, that would be dishonest.

If people (not you, just in general) are upset that sport fans are distraught over his passing then they need to stop worrying about other people.

I'm not upset you are distraught, I can appreciate that people will feel the loss of a giant in their sport or team but that doesn't mean closing your eyes to the faults and blindly worshipping, but that those flaws existed and arrogantly dismissing others feelings and opinions, after the initial shock perhaps.

Nevertheless agreeing with censorship won't always suit the person who agrees with it now.

 

[VorZakone]

I've always thought it was very inappropriate and haven't participated in those discussions, e.g. I have my own opinion about Michael Jackson but I wouldn't go into a "RIP Michael Jackson" thread on the very evening of his death to force that opinion on his mourning fans - what's the fecking point? Like I said, that's not the time nor place.

I think these people get genuinely annoyed by how people over-idolize a dead celebrity. In some cases I understand if they feel like they need to calm these celeb-lovers down.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Pretty sure the incident took place in Colorado?

True, true, fair point.

 

[momo83]

I'm not sure what point you think you are making but its not working.

If you’re not sure what point I’m making.... how can you know whether it’s working or not

 

[momo83]

Details here:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-...sers-story-and-the-half-confession?ref=scroll

Why is the race of the lady relevant. Why is the fact that she’s “apparently” from a wealthy family also mentioned.

 

[entropy]

I believe his legacy to be kind and honest would be along the lines of being 'gifted and a role model to many young people but ultimately flawed as a human being. At best an adulterer (his marriage began in 2001), at worst not proven a sexual abuser.'

I'm sorry but if you can't see the huge gulf between the defence a rich celebrity/sportsperson can avail of themselves and the support of a stretched Public Prosecutor and how that supports the alleged victim then your goggles are amazingly thick and rose tinted

I think a lot of posters on here underestimate how difficult it is for someone of his stature to get charged. Not to mention the sheer amount of money that gets poured into rebranding his image. It isn't a coincidence that fans are conflicted when it comes to issues such as this. It is exactly how such cases are handled by PR firms.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Why is the fact that she’s “apparently” from a wealthy family also mentioned.

See the recent accusations levelled at Neymar for your answer

 

[RobinLFC]

I think these people get genuinely annoyed by how people over-idolize a dead celebrity. In some cases I understand if they feel like they need to calm these celeb-lovers down.

I'd like to think I'd have the common sense and decency to give them some time to mourn appropriately in that case, but each to their own yeah.

 

[adexkola]

I'm not upset you are distraught, I can appreciate that people will feel the loss of a giant in their sport or team but that doesn't mean closing your eyes to the faults and blindly worshipping, but that those flaws existed and arrogantly dismissing others feelings and opinions, after the initial shock perhaps.

Nevertheless agreeing with censorship won't always suit the person who agrees with it now.

I'm not distraught, just stunned and sad.

I think these people get genuinely annoyed by how people over-idolize a dead celebrity. In some cases I understand if they feel like they need to calm these celeb-lovers down.

Maybe the solution is to ask, why such people idolize said celebrity to that level, instead of being high and mighty about it?