La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Skizzo/Pat Mustard vs Edgar Allan Pillow

Who will win with player peaks in the specified leagues (not career peaks)?


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Skizzo

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And with all the talk about highlighting goalkeepers in drafts now, can't say enough about the man between the sticks for us here.

Arguably, the second best keeper in the draft behind Kahn. Zenga was voted the World's Best Keeper three years in a row. He was also awarded the UEFA Goalkeeper of the Year Award in 1990. He was agile, and a fantastic shot stopper, but he excelled in one on ones also. Which would be ideal with Pippo looking to get in behind as he often did. He had seasons where his conceded goals totaled a miserly 17 and 19.


Walter Zenga kept goal for Italy and Inter for the best part of a decade in which time he became regarded as one of the best goalkeepers of his generation. Nicknamed L'Uomo Ragno - Spiderman - Zenga’s incredible agility was his major asset allowing him to make incredible reaction saves that were as aesthetically pleasing as they were important.

Inter's youth academy was originally responsible for unearthing this rough diamond although they eventually let him go leaving him to roam the lower leagues of Italian football in search of a contract. He started out at Salernitana before moving to Savona and eventually Sambenedettese. In 1982 he returned to Inter and started to push for a first team spot eventually taking the No 1 jersey in 1983. This was the start of the glory years for Zenga as his ability to show workman like performances mixed with moments of sheer brilliance started to make the rest of Serie A sit up and notice him.


It was Zenga’s positional ability that stood out as much as his agility and these two combined allowed Zenga to seem not only like a very safe goalkeeper but also a spectacular one. This is uncommon in goalkeepers as it is either their good positional play or their ability to ‘shot stop’ that makes them stand out. Criticisms frequently made of goalkeepers are about their inability to take crosses consistently, such as Dida at Milan currently, or about their lack of positional play, such as Alexander Doni currently at Roma. Zenga had the quality to be able to perform in both departments, not only would he originally have a great starting position but anything that was fired quickly to either side of this was normally comfortably dealt with. When he conceded it was usually a very good goal indeed.
 

Skizzo

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To address another claim that was made earlier too.

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
And it's not as if you have better spectrum if threats. Moller will be Deco equivalent. Hierro and Cambiasso wi) be equal threats. The only difference is Basler on wings vs both my wingbacks. Pretty equal imo.
Cambiasso scored 7 league goals in his most prolific season at Inter. Hierro scored 21 league goals in his most prolific season at Real, and hit double figures in the league 3 seasons in a row. In fact, Hierro equalled or better Cambiasso's best tally 7 times, despite spending the majority of his career at centre back! He also has the superior passing range and will generally have more runners to pick out when on the ball than Cambiasso. Its highly optimistic at best to claim they'll be 'equal threats'.
 

mazhar13

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I really like SkizzoPat's 4-4-2 setup here. Their team is excellent going forward with so much variety and creativity in their game. Hierro-Baraja is a very energetic midfielder with lots of tenacity and aggression in there, and both as central midfielders were still good at winning the ball there. My only issue is that Hierro doesn't have a more defensive-minded midfielder to let him play his goalscoring game like he did under Antic. In that time, he had Milla supporting him, when before he moved into a more goalscoring role, he was the primary defensive-minded midfielder. Still, though, having said that, Baraja is still very good at covering for his midfield partner, and I'm sure Hierro wasn't lacking that much discipline that he'd always go forward. Hierro always picked his moments and entered the box when the moment presented itself. The same went for Baraja, and that will cause EAP's team lots of problems defensively.

Helguera playing this sweeper role looks strange. He was always at his best closing down players, winning the ball, and being gritty and aggressive in his game. In this sweeper role, he'll be prone to being dragged around by the movement of Möller, Klinsmann, and Bebeto, and without a proper covering defender, EAP's team looks weaker at the back. Boateng is good at marking players and taking the ball off of the players' feet with his aggression and timing of tackles, but facing pace has always been his weakness, and there's quite a bit of it here with Klinsi and Bebeto around. de Boer is not a bad defender, but again, the lack of pace is telling, and he'll struggle to cover for so much himself. Sagnol and Lizarazu will be very good at stopping wide threats, with Lizarazu being quite capable of shutting down Basler, but Sagnol will be outnumbered with Möller and Ziege overloading that area with Klinsi drifting around. Hierro and Baraja making late runs into the box will cause even more problems.

Having said that, though, EAP's midfield is still quite solid with Cambiasso and Simeone matching the energy and tenacity of Hierro and Baraja. However, given that EAP's team doesn't have much of a creative threat other than Deco, it'll be quite an issue for them. Every good team needs at least two creative threats. When AC Milan played their diamond, they had Kaká/Rivaldo/Seedorf and Pirlo. When Real Madrid played a back 3, they had the likes of Guti, Figo, Zidane, Raúl, and Macca to call upon. EAP only really has Deco and maybe Vieri as a good link-up forward, but a link-up forward isn't enough to make a second creative threat. Cambiasso and Simeone were both good at supplementing + supporting attacks from central midfield, with Cambiasso being good at making late runs whilst his attacking teammates took away the attention of the opposition. Here, though, there's too much focus on Deco to do things, and he can't do it all by himself. At Barcelona, he had Ronaldinho and Iniesta around to help him out, but here, who's going to be around to provide some more creative threat? The wing backs? Crossing to Vieri? That's it?

If EAP had one more creative attacking player, I'd have voted for him hands down. However, SkizzoPat has too much of an attacking threat to not be able to score, especially against EAP's lopsided central defensive setup.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I really like SkizzoPat's 4-4-2 setup here. Their team is excellent going forward with so much variety and creativity in their game. Hierro-Baraja is a very energetic midfielder with lots of tenacity and aggression in there, and both as central midfielders were still good at winning the ball there. My only issue is that Hierro doesn't have a more defensive-minded midfielder to let him play his goalscoring game like he did under Antic. In that time, he had Milla supporting him, when before he moved into a more goalscoring role, he was the primary defensive-minded midfielder. Still, though, having said that, Baraja is still very good at covering for his midfield partner, and I'm sure Hierro wasn't lacking that much discipline that he'd always go forward. Hierro always picked his moments and entered the box when the moment presented itself. The same went for Baraja, and that will cause EAP's team lots of problems defensively.

Helguera playing this sweeper role looks strange. He was always at his best closing down players, winning the ball, and being gritty and aggressive in his game. In this sweeper role, he'll be prone to being dragged around by the movement of Möller, Klinsmann, and Bebeto, and without a proper covering defender, EAP's team looks weaker at the back. Boateng is good at marking players and taking the ball off of the players' feet with his aggression and timing of tackles, but facing pace has always been his weakness, and there's quite a bit of it here with Klinsi and Bebeto around. de Boer is not a bad defender, but again, the lack of pace is telling, and he'll struggle to cover for so much himself. Sagnol and Lizarazu will be very good at stopping wide threats, with Lizarazu being quite capable of shutting down Basler, but Sagnol will be outnumbered with Möller and Ziege overloading that area with Klinsi drifting around. Hierro and Baraja making late runs into the box will cause even more problems.

Having said that, though, EAP's midfield is still quite solid with Cambiasso and Simeone matching the energy and tenacity of Hierro and Baraja. However, given that EAP's team doesn't have much of a creative threat other than Deco, it'll be quite an issue for them. Every good team needs at least two creative threats. When AC Milan played their diamond, they had Kaká/Rivaldo/Seedorf and Pirlo. When Real Madrid played a back 3, they had the likes of Guti, Figo, Zidane, Raúl, and Macca to call upon. EAP only really has Deco and maybe Vieri as a good link-up forward, but a link-up forward isn't enough to make a second creative threat. Cambiasso and Simeone were both good at supplementing + supporting attacks from central midfield, with Cambiasso being good at making late runs whilst his attacking teammates took away the attention of the opposition. Here, though, there's too much focus on Deco to do things, and he can't do it all by himself. At Barcelona, he had Ronaldinho and Iniesta around to help him out, but here, who's going to be around to provide some more creative threat? The wing backs? Crossing to Vieri? That's it?

If EAP had one more creative attacking player, I'd have voted for him hands down. However, SkizzoPat has too much of an attacking threat to not be able to score, especially against EAP's lopsided central defensive setup.
Excellent analysis. On the bolded point, we drafted Baraja ahead of more defensive options like Albelda and Donato because his superior all-around game allowed us to keep the option of playing Hierro at centre back or sweeper while still retaining a strong midfield base. Its certainly a valid point though that in this setup an Albelda or Donato would give additional security for Hierro to march forward. Ultimately though we're confident that Baraja and Hierro have the discipline to time their bursts forward without leaving us undermanned on the counter, particularly given that Edgar's creativity is funnelled overwhelmingly through Deco.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
So far most of the discussion on Moller has been on his defensive role, so time for a focus on his attacking capabilities. A serial winner:

Club[edit]
Borussia Dortmund
Juventus F.C.
Schalke 04
National team[edit]
Germany
who maintained a better than 1 in 3 scoring record for Juventus in Serie A, he was also a superb passer. Some GIFs from his stand-out performance in the first leg of the 1993 UEFA Cup final:

Bursting forward from the left-sided midfield position and attempting this great chip:


Assisting Dino Baggio with a smartly worked free kick:


Lovely through ball to Baggio:


Assisting Baggio (he started this move by bursting forward down the left wing :)):

 

Gio

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There aren't that many full matches from Hierro's great 1991-92 season online that I can find but he appears to have played in a midfield two pretty regularly. With the help of Google Translate, so excuse the garbled English, but here's an account of his 4 goal performance vs Espanyol that season:



Real's line up:



Clear similarites here with with Hierro in a two supported by a playmaker starting nominally from the left but cutting in, and a creative right-sided midfielder.
That's what I was looking for earlier. A few of the Real boys had really good seasons in that set up.
 

sajeev

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Both teams really close, as the current scoreline indicates. I feel that SkizzoPat have a bit more in attack, and that might give them the edge in this match.
 

Gio

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It was nonsense when Edgar wrote it back then and it doesn't make more sense now. Boateng has pace in abundance.
Yes. It seems a weird point generally given Boateng's athleticism and equally his career playing a high line. When Scotland and Germany met last year at Hampden, we kept on dropping balls into the left wing channel for Ania to chase. But after Germany had conceded a goal in that very manner in the reverse fixture, Boateng was instructed to cover from the centre. And each time he came speeding across like a steam train to snuff it out.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
That's what I was looking for earlier. A few of the Real boys had really good seasons in that set up.
Aye, it seemed like a hell of a La Liga season, with Barca's Dream Team just pipping Real and Atletico to the title (1 point ahead of Real and 2 ahead of Atletico in the old 2 points for a win system - the current 3 points for a win system would have seen them finish on 78, 77 and 77 points respectively).

@Pat_Mustard has an uncanny ability to find the most obscure pieces of information and write ups. It's quite a talent.
I think I need to find a new hobby :lol:
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
It was nonsense when Edgar wrote it back then and it doesn't make more sense now. Boateng has pace in abundance.
No arguments there, but it would be unfitting in a draft grudge match not to use his own words against him ;). Klinsmann's powerful, tireless running will cause his defence plenty of problems, but insofar as he is targeting anyone as a weakness de Boer is the obvious choice.
 

Ecstatic

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Tbh, wingless formations are nothing new. England's wingless wonders won a WC. Milan diamond was one of the best Italian sides of all time. Helguera won the CL in a exact replica of what I have here. Lack of width just means you have more players elsewhere.
I have no issue with your tactical system that makes sense: Bayern Munich style in the 90s or the Porto of Deco.

Pros

- Moreover, you have a much stronger defence. Defenders with more credentials in their leagues.
- Vieiri/Inzaghi makes sense

Cons

- On the other hand, you lack creativity. Helguera won the CL with your tactical system with a duo Mc Manaman-Redondo on the pitch who protect Raul whose role is to deliver assists for the strikers Anelka/Morientes. In Porto, Deco used to play as a pure #10 behind 2 strikers but with Maniche & Pedro Mendes.

My view

You would have easily a better team if you had someone like Pirlo instead of Helguera OR Maniche instead of one your Calcio Midfielders.

Key battles

- Lizarazu VS Basler
- Sagnol VS Moller

I know very well Liza & Sagno but it is hard for me to assess the peak level of the German offensive players. I still need time to make a decision.
 

Ecstatic

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Do we have a Bundesliga follower able to analyse the battles Liza VS Basler and Sagnol VS Moller ???
 

Balu

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Do we have a Bundesliga follower able to analyse the battles Liza VS Basler and Sagnol VS Moller ???
I guess it's more a tactical battle than one that will be decided through individual quality. Liza, Sagnol and Möller have clear defined peaks, but Möller will drift inside a lot, so I'm not sure how much comes really down to him vs Sagnol.

Basler is difficult to judge. It was difficult to love or hate him, difficult to decide if you want him on your team or not. He's kinda the ultimate mad genius. On his day, he'll win you games no matter who's the opponent. How often will he show up though? I don't know, he might have been out drinking the night before, he might have stayed at home smoking a pack cigarettes. He might score from a cornerkick anyway. Is there another player who scored directly from a cornerkick more than once?
 

Gio

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Tbh, wingless formations are nothing new. England's wingless wonders won a WC. Milan diamond was one of the best Italian sides of all time. Helguera won the CL in a exact replica of what I have here. Lack of width just means you have more players elsewhere..
Yeah agreed on Helguera. He is a great fit for the job in hand. At Espanyol before moving to Real he played sometimes in midfield, sometimes as centre-half, sometimes as sweeper. At Real it was a similar variety of roles, especially as they adopted a 3-5-2 for Europe early on in his career there. And he often did a fine job of covering for the ageing Hierro's lack of pace.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Cons

- On the other hand, you lack creativity. Helguera won the CL with your tactical system with a duo Mc Manaman-Redondo on the pitch who protect Raul whose role is to deliver assists for the strikers Anelka/Morientes. In Porto, Deco used to play as a pure #10 behind 2 strikers but with Maniche & Pedro Mendes.

My view

You would have easily a better team if you had someone like Pirlo instead of Helguera OR Maniche instead of one your Calcio Midfielders.

Key battles

- Lizarazu VS Basler
- Sagnol VS Moller
Lizarazu hands down. He's a top 20 LB of all time.
Moller will drift in, but I think between Sagnol and Simeone, we've this well covered.

Deco is enough creativity. Shutting him down is nonsense I'm surprised get believed in. Who will be shutting down Deco here? Hierro is not a man marker and he is in a 2 man midfield facing 3.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I really like SkizzoPat's 4-4-2 setup here. Their team is excellent going forward with so much variety and creativity in their game. Hierro-Baraja is a very energetic midfielder with lots of tenacity and aggression in there, and both as central midfielders were still good at winning the ball there. My only issue is that Hierro doesn't have a more defensive-minded midfielder to let him play his goalscoring game like he did under Antic. In that time, he had Milla supporting him, when before he moved into a more goalscoring role, he was the primary defensive-minded midfielder. Still, though, having said that, Baraja is still very good at covering for his midfield partner, and I'm sure Hierro wasn't lacking that much discipline that he'd always go forward. Hierro always picked his moments and entered the box when the moment presented itself. The same went for Baraja, and that will cause EAP's team lots of problems defensively.

Helguera playing this sweeper role looks strange. He was always at his best closing down players, winning the ball, and being gritty and aggressive in his game. In this sweeper role, he'll be prone to being dragged around by the movement of Möller, Klinsmann, and Bebeto, and without a proper covering defender, EAP's team looks weaker at the back. Boateng is good at marking players and taking the ball off of the players' feet with his aggression and timing of tackles, but facing pace has always been his weakness, and there's quite a bit of it here with Klinsi and Bebeto around. de Boer is not a bad defender, but again, the lack of pace is telling, and he'll struggle to cover for so much himself. Sagnol and Lizarazu will be very good at stopping wide threats, with Lizarazu being quite capable of shutting down Basler, but Sagnol will be outnumbered with Möller and Ziege overloading that area with Klinsi drifting around. Hierro and Baraja making late runs into the box will cause even more problems.

Having said that, though, EAP's midfield is still quite solid with Cambiasso and Simeone matching the energy and tenacity of Hierro and Baraja. However, given that EAP's team doesn't have much of a creative threat other than Deco, it'll be quite an issue for them. Every good team needs at least two creative threats. When AC Milan played their diamond, they had Kaká/Rivaldo/Seedorf and Pirlo. When Real Madrid played a back 3, they had the likes of Guti, Figo, Zidane, Raúl, and Macca to call upon. EAP only really has Deco and maybe Vieri as a good link-up forward, but a link-up forward isn't enough to make a second creative threat. Cambiasso and Simeone were both good at supplementing + supporting attacks from central midfield, with Cambiasso being good at making late runs whilst his attacking teammates took away the attention of the opposition. Here, though, there's too much focus on Deco to do things, and he can't do it all by himself. At Barcelona, he had Ronaldinho and Iniesta around to help him out, but here, who's going to be around to provide some more creative threat? The wing backs? Crossing to Vieri? That's it?

If EAP had one more creative attacking player, I'd have voted for him hands down. However, SkizzoPat has too much of an attacking threat to not be able to score, especially against EAP's lopsided central defensive setup.
Basler vs Lizarazu. Lizarazu will handle him comfortably.
Despite his positioning, Moller is not a left winger and will drift in to Simeone. Sagnol is a better defender than Ziege.
Helguera did exactly the same things you say in exactly the same role he plays in here. Watch Real of 2000. Back 3. He moves up and down shutting down people and heading off aerial balls.
 

mazhar13

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Despite his positioning, Moller is not a left winger and will drift in to Simeone. Sagnol is a better defender than Ziege.
Helguera did exactly the same things you say in exactly the same role he plays in here. Watch Real of 2000. Back 3. He moves up and down shutting down people and heading off aerial balls.
Of course Möller isn't a pure left winger, but he doesn't need that with Basler already providing the width. Möller has always been good at operating the left channel, and this role suits him well.

In terms of how you are dealing with him, you really cannot afford to just have Simeone go after Möller like that especially since he isn't just playing through the middle. Boateng has a big responsibility here to make sure that Möller doesn't exploit the left channel as well as the space between him and Sagnol_ especially with Ziege bombing forward as well.

And with Helguera, you've just proven my point. Who is going to cover for him? I can see Boateng and de Boer trying to stop Bebeto and Klinsi, keeping an eye on their positions and runs, but both were proper livewires who drifted all around the final third and kept on running. With Helguera pushing up and trying to close down anyone in the hole, I do not really see Boateng and de Boer keeping up for long enough. De Boer at Barcelona really fell off the map and wasn't as defensively strong as he was at Ajax, and Boateng was always about winning the ball, closing down players, tightly marking them when they are in a standing position, and using his pace to catch up and recover. He was never really that good at reading the game from the back, and with Klinsi and Bebeto roaming around, I struggle to see Boateng keeping up with them for long enough. This is on top of the fact that Hierro/Baraja can overload the box with their disciplined surges forward.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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This is dead. Damn, the jinx continues!

Anyways final thoughts.

Skizzo/Pat's myriad of threats:
- Basler vs Lizarazu - Basler was quite inconsistent and apt to go missing in games. Lizarazu is the 2nd best LB in this draft after Cafu. He will not be a threat.
- Moller is not a left winger. His best was as AM. And in his role he'll up against Simeone. Again no contest. I expect Simeone to handle this comfortably.

If you look past the digressions, his best way to attack comes from Hierro moving up or Basler's long crosses.

Hierro was a great DM, but he is played in a midfield 2 here. His "peak" was post 1996 when he was consistently a DM or a CB. Here they were going for a CM version from his non-peak years and that makes @VivaJanuzaj 's insistence that he would starve off Deco perplexing. Baraja is a better midfielder than him on pitch! If he moves up he'll just leave it open for a counter that my team can execute brilliantly.

you really cannot afford to just have Simeone go after Möller
Really don't understand this. Why not? They are practically in the same area of the pitch :confused: and Simeone is excellent out wide too. In fact as Snow pointed out better he was better in a wide-ish role and that puts him exactly one on one with Moller.

With Lizarazu taking care of Basler and Simeone on Moller, where is all the creativity coming from?

And with Helguera, you've just proven my point. Who is going to cover for him?
It's a 3 man defence and Helguera IS the cover. He will aggressively cover Klinsmann or Bebeto whoever is near the ball and leave the other one to be overed by rest of my 2 CB's of mine!
 

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Helguera is a nice fit tactically here but as good as he was athletically, he'll get beaten here by an athletic juggernaut in Klinsmann. A critical duel going in Skizzo-Pat's favour played a big part here.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Helguera is a nice fit tactically here but as good as he was athletically, he'll get beaten here by an athletic juggernaut in Klinsmann. A critical duel going in Skizzo-Pat's favour played a big part here.
The 3 vs 2 to even that up. And as I said above with Simeone on Moller and Lizarazu on Basler, I struggle to see how they'll move the ball to the strikers!
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
This is dead. Damn, the jinx continues!

Anyways final thoughts.

Skizzo/Pat's myriad of threats:
- Basler vs Lizarazu - Basler was quite inconsistent and apt to go missing in games. Lizarazu is the 2nd best LB in this draft after Cafu. He will not be a threat.
- Moller is not a left winger. His best was as AM. And in his role he'll up against Simeone. Again no contest. I expect Simeone to handle this comfortably.

If you look past the digressions, his best way to attack comes from Hierro moving up or Basler's long crosses.

Hierro was a great DM, but he is played in a midfield 2 here. His "peak" was post 1996 when he was consistently a DM or a CB. Here they were going for a CM version from his non-peak years and that makes @VivaJanuzaj 's insistence that he would starve off Deco perplexing. Baraja is a better midfielder than him on pitch! If he moves up he'll just leave it open for a counter that my team can execute brilliantly.



Really don't understand this. Why not? They are practically in the same area of the pitch :confused: and Simeone is excellent out wide too. In fact as Snow pointed out better he was better in a wide-ish role and that puts him exactly one on one with Moller.

With Lizarazu taking care of Basler and Simeone on Moller, where is all the creativity coming from?



It's a 3 man defence and Helguera IS the cover. He will aggressively cover Klinsmann or Bebeto whoever is near the ball and leave the other one to be overed by rest of my 2 CB's of mine!
Not quite sure where to start here but:

1) Cafu isn't a left back.
2) You've offered nothing to support the assertion that Hierro's 'peak was post 1996'. 21 league goals in a season in a similar set-up to ours suggests he was truly outstanding in this role.
3) Viva's (and our) belief that Deco isn't well-placed to have his best game is due to the comparative dearth of creativity around him and the fact that he'll either be operating in a zone patrolled by Hierro and Baraja, or else dropping deep to try to get on the ball.
4) Basler hit 20 goals and 12 assists in a single season for Bremen.
5) We've provided GIFs of Moller's magnificent performance in the UEFA Cup final to show his suitability for the role.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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@mazhar13

This is an overlapping starting lineup positions.

- Moller is exactly in same place as Simeone. If he cuts or or drifts left, Simeone can follow him all through. I don't see Moller getting past Simeone at all.
- Basler is between Lizarazu and Cambiasso (who as operated as LW himself).

His creativity comes from Hierro/Baraja and mine comes from Deco. Deco is the most creative of them hands down.

And neither Basler not Moller will track back when out of possession (something crucial in a 4-4-2) and that means my wingbacks have more freedom than you give them credit for.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Not quite sure where to start here but:

1) Cafu isn't a left back.
2) You've offered nothing to support the assertion that Hierro's 'peak was post 1996'. 21 league goals in a season in a similar set-up to ours suggests he was truly outstanding in this role.
3) Viva's (and our) belief that Deco isn't well-placed to have his best game is due to the comparative dearth of creativity around him and the fact that he'll either be operating in a zone patrolled by Hierro and Baraja, or else dropping deep to try to get on the ball.
4) Basler hit 20 goals and 12 assists in a single season for Bremen.
5) We've provided GIFs of Moller's magnificent performance in the UEFA Cup final to show his suitability for the role.
1) Typo corrected it.
2) Never said he was a misfit. Just pointing out that we are not seeing the DM monster of his later years (usual draft profile). Don't try selling him as a Matthaus v2 here.
3) Deco has survived in Porto with lack of creativity and in Barcelona in a different role, creative but more of an enabler. Very successfull in both roles.
4) Not against Lizarazu and Cambiasso. No way.
5) Again not against peak Simeone..

As to points 4 & 5 you lose the midfield battles. Hierro and Baraja doing box-to-box is your best bet to move the ball and that will leave space for Deco to do the damage.
 

Moby

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The 3 vs 2 to even that up. And as I said above with Simeone on Moller and Lizarazu on Basler, I struggle to see how they'll move the ball to the strikers!
I was going to reply to this in terms of how your defense is likely to pan out, but you drew it yourself. And honestly it makes the Skizz-Pat attack look even more dangerous.

De Boer will get battered in the air and physically by Klinsmann. De Boer - again while tactically a good fit - in terms of style of play relied more on his reading of the game and covering that left channel, which would have been against a quick and silky 433 where the opposition RW attempts to run the channels, etc but in this case against somewhat of a 4-4-2 with the ball taking the aerial route plenty of times with the aim being that German in the middle, I'm not sure how much influence De Boer will have in curbing that, if any. If your instruction is him minding Klinsmann for most of the game like that graphic shows, then it could well turn into a mismatch specially given the delivery - from both out wide and deep (Hierro).

Edit: These details matter when comparing the two teams, for example ruggeri on the other end stacks up well to face someone like Vieri.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I see less of a problem with the Vieri/Inzaghi combo than some do here. I think they would complement each other well enough. If you regard it as an old school-ish combo, there's no need to always look for a more pronounced second striker type of the sort who is practically a No10 in terms of actual playmaking. If you buy Deco as the playmaker, the above isn't an issue. Inzaghi knew how to play off a partner and how to feed on whatever that partner (or anyone else) left him in terms of what they created – he was exceptionally adept at showing up to capitalize on general commotion in the box, and with Vieri there as the focal point, there will likely be commotion.

I also see Lizarazu and Sagnol as key players in this match. If they get enough opportunities to get involved offensively (and I think they might), they'll be able to contribute considerably. Sagnol, in particular, was a more than decent crosser – and with both Vieri and Inzaghi hunting round and in the box, that's highly dangerous.

Snapshot: Sagnol crosses for Vieri who just about beats his man in the air to head it on target – Zenga saves but can't do anything but block it...and there's Inzaghi, doing what he does better than most.

I rate both teams highly, as mentioned, but I'll go for Pillow here.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
1) Typo corrected it.
2) Never said he was a misfit. Just pointing out that we are not seeing the DM monster of his later years (usual draft profile). Don't try selling him as a Matthaus v2 here.
3) Deco has survived in Porto with lack of creativity and in Barcelona in a different role, creative but more of an enabler. Very successfull in both roles.
4) Not against Lizarazu and Cambiasso. No way.
5) Again not against peak Simeone..

As to points 4 & 5 you lose the midfield battles. Hierro and Baraja doing box-to-box is your best bet to move the ball and that will leave space for Deco to do the damage.
I'm not really sure what 'usual draft profile' means and why I should be arsed about it. Same goes for this chasm you're trying to paint between 'DM' and the role we're using him in. We've presented real-world evidence of Hierro's suitability to his role and the superb peak he hit there. What this boils down to is that you've left yourself over-reliant on Deco to provide some creative spark and you're working overtime to dismiss our creative players, but in their case the numbers speak for themselves. Now Cambiasso is shifting across to double team Basler, Helguera is presumably frantically trying to cover the de Boer/Klinsmann aerial mismatch, and your own arguments are making your previously solid team shape sound more disjointed by the minute.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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If your instruction is him minding Klinsmann for most of the game like that graphic shows, then it could well turn into a mismatch specially given the delivery - from both out wide and deep (Hierro).
Maybe that's why he is not tasked with doing that ;) Mentioned this in OP too...It will be Helguera who will be the aggressive tacker here. He will step out and fight whoever of Klinsmann or Bebeto has the ball. He was excellent aerially and can handle anything Basler can cross in. As you say De Boer and Boateng will not have much necessity to drift wide and so will squeeze out space for their attackers to operate in. There are 5 people fighting for the same space. It will get crowded and that works in my favour.
 

Moby

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Maybe that's why he is not tasked with doing that
I was going by the graphic you posted which showed De Boer next to Klinsmann.
Given Klinsmann's opportunistic approach, he can be seen targetting De Boer a few times here.

He was excellent aerially and can handle anything Basler can cross in.
With Klinsmann to aim at in the middle and Bebeto lurking for and spillage? Sorry, will have to disagree there. Helguera won't be able to withstand that.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I'm not really sure what 'usual draft profile' means and why I should be arsed about it. Same goes for this chasm you're trying to paint between 'DM' and the role we're using him in. We've presented real-world evidence of Hierro's suitability to his role and the superb peak he hit there. What this boils down to is that you've left yourself over-reliant on Deco to provide some creative spark and you're working overtime to dismiss our creative players, but in their case the numbers speak for themselves. Now Cambiasso is shifting across to double team Basler, Helguera is presumably frantically trying to cover the de Boer/Klinsmann aerial mismatch, and your own arguments are making your previously solid team shape sound more disjointed by the minute.
Well it is true.

As long as they are in the same space the one to one matches are in my favour.

Lizarazu > Basler, and
Simeone > Moller

and that leaves

Baraja and Hierro = Deco and Cambiasso.

All that we have multiple threats everywhere is just an oversell imo.

Your only card is Hierro and goals record and I never denied it. All I said that for him to give that box-to-box ability, he'll end up leaving space for Deco behind. He's not going to sit back and pass going by your insistence on goals. I don't see him closing Deco and scoring goals all by himself.

And it doesn't matter if Cambiasso is my only threat as long as you don't close him down. You can't do that with a 2 man midfield and he'll do his damage same as Hierro will for you.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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I was going by the graphic you posted which showed De Boer next to Klinsmann.
Given Klinsmann's opportunistic approach, he can be seen targetting De Boer a few times here.

With Klinsmann to aim at in the middle and Bebeto lurking for and spillage? Sorry, will have to disagree there. Helguera won't be able to withstand that.
You are still looking at 1vs1 battle in a 3vs2 war. Yes, Klinsi will get better off Helguera but it's not be a one-sided game. Not when we have advantage of numbers.

And again as you say Hierro moves up to do a box-to-box role he is supposed to play here, what of Deco? Surely in a counter, Deco to Vieri/Inzaghi is a more easier route to goal?
 

Joga Bonito

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Boateng was always about winning the ball, closing down players, tightly marking them when they are in a standing position, and using his pace to catch up and recover. He was never really that good at reading the game from the back, and with Klinsi and Bebeto roaming around, I struggle to see Boateng keeping up with them for long enough.
Think the opposite is true tbf and that description is more in line with a Godín style stopper imo. Boateng has excelled in a high line for Bayern where one requires top notch athleticism and reading of the game. He's been one of Bayern's (and Germany's) key players at the back with his all-round game and excellent ability on the ball. Think he is perfect for EAP's set-up myself, or any other one for that matter.
 

Moby

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You are still looking at 1vs1 battle in a 3vs2 war. Yes, Klinsi will get better off Helguera but it's not be a one-sided game. Not when we have advantage of numbers.

And again as you say Hierro moves up to do a box-to-box role he is supposed to play here, what of Deco? Surely in a counter, Deco to Vieri/Inzaghi is a more easier route to goal?
I looked at the rest of the personnel in that 3 and elaborated on why one of them is even worse to have any say in the matters. For defending aerial service, you are banking a lot on Helguera here which isn't good enough for me. Klinsmann's isn't a Jan Koller who only has size and height in his favour, he was a vulture, he measured his prey and then feasted on it. Mentally, he was more clever and cunning than your defense would be able to cope with. Your defense lacks someone who was mentally tenacious and could give it back as well.
It's not surprising that Klinsmann went third round while Helguera went in 11th. Just pointing out that there's a gulf in class here.