And that's precisely why we've got another top drawer midfielder alongside Hierro in Baraja. We're setting up to take the initiative here and win the game, and we've fielded the diverse creative and goalscoring threats to try to do that. After including a write up with absolutely zero mention of your tactics or gameplan your argument here seems to revolve around you somehow winning the numbers game in every area of the park, or in the case of 'Simeone > Moller' simply dismissing our players without any semblance of an argument. World Cup winner, Euros winner, CL winner, UEFA Cup winner, Bundesliga winner, maintained a 1 in 3 scoring record throughout an 85 cap international career and for around a decade at club level, most assists in Bundesliga history if that data is correct...but 'Simeone > Moller' is meant to qualify as some sort of conclusive argument?
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Skizzo/Pat Mustard vs Edgar Allan Pillow
- Thread starter Marty1968
- Start date
I'm normally very skeptical when it comes to Edgar's rhetoric – as he knows well himself. But here I see some fairly tenuous arguments on the other side. It's patently obvious that fielding an extra defender makes it harder for Klinsmann and Bebeto to operate effectively. De Boer isn't good enough in the air, Boateng isn't clever enough – and Helguera's presence does little or nothing to make up for these deficiencies. Does not sound about right. Klinsmann is the best striker on the park, but he isn't unplayable in this context. Bebeto, I should probably admit, is a player I've never rated all that highly other than as a sidekick for a certain kind of partner (which was a role he excelled in for Brazil, but that isn't relevant here). I get the idea of him, sure. But I don't see him as providing enough here to tip the scales.
Ziege, for what it's worth, was poor for my money in a purely defensive sense. Downright poor in this context. Mannini was decent, though – more than decent defensively compared to most present-day fullbacks. But the left side, considered as such, consists of a player who would be best deployed as a wingback – and Andreas Möller, who was an extremely cnutish, but absolutely brilliant, player. But he isn't a naturally wide player for one thing, nor does he add any defensive nous (for me, he is almost purely an attacking midfielder). I mention this specifically in the context of my point above, pertaining to the potential threat of Edgar's wingbacks.
Ziege, for what it's worth, was poor for my money in a purely defensive sense. Downright poor in this context. Mannini was decent, though – more than decent defensively compared to most present-day fullbacks. But the left side, considered as such, consists of a player who would be best deployed as a wingback – and Andreas Möller, who was an extremely cnutish, but absolutely brilliant, player. But he isn't a naturally wide player for one thing, nor does he add any defensive nous (for me, he is almost purely an attacking midfielder). I mention this specifically in the context of my point above, pertaining to the potential threat of Edgar's wingbacks.
Klinsmann mostly (who is the best player on the pitch) and a good arguing about Moller's influence on the game - on the other hand, Vieri and Inzaghi may won't work together as good as I thought initially
Not much between the teams though, I thought that I'm voting for a team that is losing by a considerable margin, imagine my surprise when my vote gave them the lead 8:7
Agreed. Boateng is an excellent CB, that's more than a physical CB. He's like the upgrade and more consistent Smalling (which is more than a Vidic style defender). I don't see why de Boer-Helguera-Boateng can't match-up Klinsmann-Bebeto, in isolated condition. Although it might be different when you factor in Moller in there.
They have Klinsmann for Serie A performance. Was he really that good? From wiki, his time at Inter was just decent.Klinsmann mostly (who is the best player on the pitch) and a good arguing about Moller's influence on the game - on the other hand, Vieri and Inzaghi may won't work together as good as I thought initially
Not much between the teams though, I thought that I'm voting for a team that is losing by a considerable margin, imagine my surprise when my vote gave them the lead 8:7
Good point. Maybe not the best then - but one of. Still, World Cup winner, already voted as a West Germany player of the year - his peak came probably around 1994-95, but he was immense in Inter
Check the video I posted earlier on Klinsmann (bottom of page 2 I think) all of the goals on there are from his time at Inter.
Sorry SkizzTard (Yeah thats a thing now), but decided to go with EAP on this one. The way Deco is being rendered a non entity is not sitting well with me. you guys have been talking about Hierro's goal scoring exploits which mean he is supposed to go forward and then I don't see Deco being nullified esp with Cambiasso supporting. With his playmaking EAP's fowards are bound to get something.
Also can someone find out stats on Hierro's goal scoring, as how many of them were penalties ? transfermarkt.com does not have correct data on him for 92 season but all of his later goals seems to have come from Penalties or set pieces.
Also can someone find out stats on Hierro's goal scoring, as how many of them were penalties ? transfermarkt.com does not have correct data on him for 92 season but all of his later goals seems to have come from Penalties or set pieces.
Tbh, Vieri at Inter was much better. He had 2 seasons (3rd was a washout) and he top scored at 17 goals from 49 games. Vieri's peak was 27 goals from 37 games. Even taking into account the defensive strategies, it still is a big difference.
nice, thanks @harms , what site is that ?
Vieri was a better goalscorer but I don't think that he was a superior player. Call it a personal preference if you want
12:12 with 2 hours to go 
Career wise. Yes. But looking purely within Serie A context, it's really the same.
So would we do the goalkeeper poll thing on this one @Marty1968 if it goes to penalties? Would be good to have advantage of Zenga on your side in that case.
Edit: just saw EAP has Kopke, not a huge difference then.
Edit: just saw EAP has Kopke, not a huge difference then.
EAP's team wins for me. Some of my favourite players in that lineup, and solid tactical setup to deal with the opposition. Both very good sides though.
Vieri at Inter - 27 goals from 37 games
Inzaghi at Juve - 30 goals from 49 games
.
Klinsmann - 17 goals from 49 games
Bebeto - 25 goals from 34 games
I hold an edge in goalscoring ability.
And I would rate Deco > Moller. At his peak he outshone Ronaldinho!
Ballon D'or Silver Ball: 2004
UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year: 2003–04, 2005–06
ESM Team of the Year: 2004–05[24]
FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball: 2006
CNID Best Portuguese Athlete Abroad: 2006
On one hand you have a Hierro who can take Deco out totally and still showcase his goalscoring exploits. And on the other hand you have Simeone who has one task in handling Moller and fails miserably
I can understand Hierro's goalscoring exploits but I certainly don't see him replicating the same AND taking Deco out of the equation. It one or the other. And a Deco free will cause more than enough trouble to score a couple of goals.
Inzaghi at Juve - 30 goals from 49 games
.
Klinsmann - 17 goals from 49 games
Bebeto - 25 goals from 34 games
I hold an edge in goalscoring ability.
And I would rate Deco > Moller. At his peak he outshone Ronaldinho!
Ballon D'or Silver Ball: 2004
UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year: 2003–04, 2005–06
ESM Team of the Year: 2004–05[24]
FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball: 2006
CNID Best Portuguese Athlete Abroad: 2006
On one hand you have a Hierro who can take Deco out totally and still showcase his goalscoring exploits. And on the other hand you have Simeone who has one task in handling Moller and fails miserably
I can understand Hierro's goalscoring exploits but I certainly don't see him replicating the same AND taking Deco out of the equation. It one or the other. And a Deco free will cause more than enough trouble to score a couple of goals.We didn't say Deco is a non-entity, but when he's Edgar's only real creative threat, we've pointed out how we would limit the supply to the front two. Not to mention, we are far better equipped dealing with his front 2 than vice versa. Edgar said Simeone is moving wide to cover for Moller, which leaves space for Hierro to move forward at times. We didn't say he would all game, but we have highlighted his ability to do so, and the threat he carries when suddenly he's left in that space. Deco won't cover for Simeone when he moves...that works both ways.
What tactical line up exactly? Edgar hasn't explained any of his tactics, or how he expects to function. All he said was Deco is dictating play and running the show. Either he's dropping deeper to do so, which means his front two is even more disconnected, or he's staying in the AM spot, crowded out, and not able to run the show like he stated.
We've been forthcoming about our tactics, and what we expect to accomplish the whole time. Edgar has covered minimal discussion at best. Don't see how that translates to having a tactical set up to deal with us here, especially when our forwards are a severe mismatch in their skill set to De Boer.
I mean his general formation -- I think he'll manage to contain your side.
We've highlighted Hierro's ability to play in a 2 man midfield. The comments on his goal scoring shows the threat he has when he's allowed to move forward. How are you dropping Helguera back into a 3 man back line, moving Simeone wide to cover Moller, and still winning a numerical advantage all over the field? It doesn't add up.On one hand you have a Hierro who can take Deco out totally and still showcase his goalscoring exploits. And on the other hand you have Simeone who has one task in handling Moller and fails miserably
It was to highlight how we have a myriad of threats over your Deco - Inzaghi/Vieri threat. It shouldn't be hard to understand that. I don't think we ever said Hierro is going to be a mainstay in your box. The fact that Baraja and Hierro are both goal scorers from midfield just highlights the fact that we have goals from more than just our forwards. A luxury you DON'T have.
But that's the part I am sketchy about, ofcourse if Moller stay wide he would be Sagnol's man, and only when he cuts inside Simeone would be concerned with him, or are you man marking Moller @Edgar Allan Pillow
No man marking. Though Simeone is quite effective in wide areas too and is proven there too.
Your first line was right, if he is wide he will be for Sagnol, though from what I read of him he is not a winger and will be more in Simeone's area than Sagnol's.
How so? We have a front two that doesn't match up particularly well with his center backs. De Boer struggles with pace, and in the air. Something Klinsmann is more than adept at. Bebeto and his link up play create its own threat.
We highlighted Moller's and Basler's creative threat on an earlier page, showing how Moller has the most EVER assists in the Bundesliga. Basler is 8th on the same list. The fact that both are also proven goal scorers adds another threat which I struggle to see how he contains. He stated Simeone moves wide, that just leaves space for Hierro to move into at times. Hierro has 20+ goals in a season. Both him and Baraja have higher goal totals in a season than Deco.
That's 6 players in our forward/midfield line that have prolific scoring seasons, and we're set up to exploit his weakness in defense (pace/heading ability)
On the flip side, Deco can assist, but offers next to little goal threat. Same for everyone else on the field bar his midfield. His two forwards can score, but look at their match ups here. Ruggeri matches up with Vieri better than anyone in the draft, limiting his output. Chiellini and Inzaghi will be all over each other. Deco will be looking for passes, but he'll be closed down by two of the best midfielders to have played in La Liga in Hierro and Baraja, both in roles here that they've excelled in.
Our tactical set up has shown how we would limit his threats (defensive match ups in our favor) and shown how we would exploit our advantages (offensive match ups, goal scoring from multiple players)
I'm not contesting Hierro moving forward...just stating the fact that when he is forward Deco has space behind. Your claim that you can shut out Deco doesn't hold when when you have both Hierro and Baraja shutting between the boxes.
And I don't rate Moller in a wide midfield role. You're portraying him as a Nedved when he is clearly not. It is not his best position imo and he'd struggle against Simeone.
That's exactly what Edgar spins in these drafts
he's over there saying we're being dishonest somehow, but we've been forthcoming from the very beginning.He's now saying Simeone is moving wide to cover Moller, until you ask him about it, now suddenly its Sagnol and Simeone is doing a job elsewhere.
Either way, if Simeone moves wide, it opens space centrally. If Simeone follows Moller into the AM/DM area, it still free's space up to allow Hierro to move forward at times.
Deco won't track back, and both Hierro and Baraja are well-rounded enough to understand their roles. Both have excelled in similar set ups, and both offer a threat outside the box if getting sight of goal, plus both have fantastic play making abilities that give us options if Moller gets completely shut down.
Which is just another thing that Edgar can't say if Deco gets shut out. His game plan is too one-dimensional and completely reliant on Deco doing everything for him.
I think he has the right balance of defence and attack. Lizarazu is the best fullback on the pitch, Simeone and Cambiaso are both more than capable of dominating that midfield -- with Deco being the link to two of the greatest strikers of that era.That's exactly what Edgar spins in these drafts
He's now saying Simeone is moving wide to cover Moller, until you ask him about it, now suddenly its Sagnol and Simeone is doing a job elsewhere.
Either way, if Simeone moves wide, it opens space centrally. If Simeone follows Moller into the AM/DM area, it still free's space up to allow Hierro to move forward at times.
Deco won't track back, and both Hierro and Baraja are well-rounded enough to understand their roles. Both have excelled in similar set ups, and both offer a threat outside the box if getting sight of goal, plus both have fantastic play making abilities that give us options if Moller gets completely shut down.
Which is just another thing that Edgar can't say if Deco gets shut out. His game plan is too one-dimensional and completely reliant on Deco doing everything for him.
So now he's against Simeone again? @Tuppet I hope you're doing a better job keeping up with this than I am.
He's played wide roles, he's played AM roles. All we've done is allowed him space to actually get on the ball and influence play. We never said he was Nedved. we've said how our team would operate all along. You still offered no tactical explanation for how you would set up. You've flip flopped on who is doing what, and tried to cover all your bases by doing so.
Moller has more options around him than Deco, not to mention he also offers HIS OWN GOAL THREAT, which you can't say when our defenders match up with your forwards.
There has to be tactical instructions in the write-up. Otherwise we can all just make them up to suit our needs as the discussion goes along. Which is unfair imo.
What midfield is he going to dominate? Hierro and Baraja? That wouldn't happen. Especially with Simeone moving wide and deep to cover Moller.
Anyway, won't keep going on with you, obviously you've made up your mind. Just wondered how you saw it
Now you are just taking the piss. How can I flip flop when I quote my earlier post. I just mentioned Simeone ability to drift wide as an added advantage.
Yep, I'd bank on Simeone and Cambiaso to come out on top there.
No problem.Anyway, won't keep going on with you, obviously you've made up your mind. Just wondered how you saw it
There are no special tactics like high line or high press. Molles plays wide midfielder cutting in and Simeone my midfielder in exactly the same area. No reason why tactics must cover obvious stuff. Helguera's role and interaction with my wingbacks is the critical part and I've covered it in my OP.
Wait? You mention something as an added advantage? Like the ability of Hierro and Baraja of scoring goals?
You've said he's staying central, that he's better in a wide'ish role, that he's dropping back to cover the space in the AM spot when Helguera drops into defense. And yet we're the ones apparently overselling things? Right.
It's not like Simeone is going to run up and down in a straight line, is he? Where do you think a cutting in Moller be wrt Simeone? They'd be right on top of each other. The creativity is just on paper here.
And Moller and Basler would not track back defensively. When you lose possession, you have to desperately count on Hierro and Baraja to run back. A pass to my wingbacks will spring Deco free to start my own counter.
So Moller will just be running right into Simeone all game? Doesn't sound like the player who we described on the previous page? The one with the most assists in Germany, who is creative and a goal threat. Yeah, sounds like he'll be the type to just keep running straight into Simeone all game.
Yup. Moller was not an exceptional dribbler nor did he have brilliant pace to beat Simeone. I've enough confidence in Diego to hold Moller in check all through the match.So Moller will just be running right into Simeone all game? Doesn't sound like the player who we described on the previous page? The one with the most assists in Germany, who is creative and a goal threat. Yeah, sounds like he'll be the type to just keep running straight into Simeone all game.
Anyways...14-14 now. This match has been a roller coaster ride...just like any match between us should rightly be. No holds barred.
Anyway got to do some work. Has been an exciting match as usual skizzo/pat. Will be back later to check the results.
It's been a pleasure as always!Yup. Moller was not an exceptional dribbler nor did he have brilliant pace to beat Simeone. I've enough confidence in Diego to hold Moller in check all through the match.
Anyways...14-14 now. This match has been a roller coaster ride...just like any match between us should rightly be. No holds barred.
Anyway got to do some work. Has been an exciting match as usual skizzo/pat. Will be back later to check the results.
I doubt this will be the last time we face each other. I have to see how often it's been. 4 out of 6 drafts now?Good luck for the last hour or so. I won't be spamming anything since you won't be here. Just answering if there's any questions. Catch you later mate!
Blimey, this is exciting.
I went EAP cos of liking the wing backs mainly. Lizarazu esp.
Now I'm pondering that Skizz/Pat have the 2 top top picks in Hierro & Klinsmann but will stick I think.
I went EAP cos of liking the wing backs mainly. Lizarazu esp.
Now I'm pondering that Skizz/Pat have the 2 top top picks in Hierro & Klinsmann but will stick I think.