La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Skizzo/Pat Mustard vs Edgar Allan Pillow

[Skizzo]

Going to post both of our final thoughts here so that its easy reference for all. Here is our summary


We've maintained through the game that our opponent has a singular, one dimensional threat. A great front two, supplied by Deco. Once we inspect that though, its not as menacing as it seems.

• Vieri is a physical bully, which is kept in check by the best person for the job, Ruggeri.
• Deco offers no goal threat. With the front two matching up, Deco is left to do it all on his own. No denying his talent as a playmaker, but when he has no significant goal threat on his own, he becomes a singular threat with assists.

• Our attack looks to exploit the weaknesses in his defense. De Boer is great on the ball, but struggles with pace and in the air. Klinsmann excels in both areas, and Bebeto is quite quick too.
• Helguera has been mentioned as dropping in to the defense, leaving a space in front. If Simeone is being tasked to cover Moller, he will follow him into that space, leaving channels for Hierro to move into at times. Hierro is a great passer, but also offers a significant goal threat around the box also, with a 20+ goal season to his name.

Our opponent is strongest in the middle of the field, which is why we're set up with two all round, tough midfielders to limit space for Deco to operate in, and have our creative players moved wider to exploit space, and spread the midfield out.

Set pieces are a threat, with Hierro, Basler, Moller all being deadly.

Our story all along is that Edgar has a good team. Solid midfield. But a one dimensional threat. Once we know that his only real route to goal is Deco to Inzaghi/Vieri, and knowing that his forwards don't enjoy the same mismatches that ours do, it makes it easy to shut out that threat.

On the flip side, having a mismatch with Klinsmann/Bebeto against De Boer, Moller and Basler able to score from open play and set pieces, along with a goal threat from Baraja and Hierro when they are able to push up, then we have too many threats to shut out.



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This is Edgar's, posted from the previous page

This is dead. Damn, the jinx continues!

Anyways final thoughts.

Skizzo/Pat's myriad of threats:
- Basler vs Lizarazu - Basler was quite inconsistent and apt to go missing in games. Lizarazu is the 2nd best LB in this draft after Cafu. He will not be a threat.
- Moller is not a left winger. His best was as AM. And in his role he'll up against Simeone. Again no contest. I expect Simeone to handle this comfortably.

If you look past the digressions, his best way to attack comes from Hierro moving up or Basler's long crosses.

Hierro was a great DM, but he is played in a midfield 2 here. His "peak" was post 1996 when he was consistently a DM or a CB. Here they were going for a CM version from his non-peak years and that makes @VivaJanuzaj 's insistence that he would starve off Deco perplexing. Baraja is a better midfielder than him on pitch! If he moves up he'll just leave it open for a counter that my team can execute brilliantly.

↑
you really cannot afford to just have Simeone go after Möller
Really don't understand this. Why not? They are practically in the same area of the pitch and Simeone is excellent out wide too. In fact as Snow pointed out better he was better in a wide-ish role and that puts him exactly one on one with Moller.

With Lizarazu taking care of Basler and Simeone on Moller, where is all the creativity coming from?

↑
And with Helguera, you've just proven my point. Who is going to cover for him?
It's a 3 man defence and Helguera IS the cover. He will aggressively cover Klinsmann or Bebeto whoever is near the ball and leave the other one to be overed by rest of my 2 CB's of mine!

 

[Skizzo]

Blimey, this is exciting.

I went EAP cos of liking the wing backs mainly. Lizarazu esp.

Now I'm pondering that Skizz/Pat have the 2 top top picks in Hierro & Klinsmann but will stick I think.

Well what you're pondering makes sense. Our 2 top top picks are what will lead to goals, and shut out the opposition. Lizarazu is a great wing back, but what goal threat does he contribute to? crosses? We're well equipped there.

His best threat, as he's said all game, is Deco, who is playing around the area of Hierro/Baraja. They're more than capable of stifling that threat.

Klinsmann on the other hand excels in areas that De Boer is known to struggle in.

Long story short, our advantages are in areas that stop him scoring, and contribute to us scoring.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Blimey, this is exciting.

I went EAP cos of liking the wing backs mainly. Lizarazu esp.

Now I'm pondering that Skizz/Pat have the 2 top top picks in Hierro & Klinsmann but will stick I think.

I'll just refer you to Chester's detailed post on my wingback advantage.

I'm normally very skeptical when it comes to Edgar's rhetoric – as he knows well himself. But here I see some fairly tenuous arguments on the other side. It's patently obvious that fielding an extra defender makes it harder for Klinsmann and Bebeto to operate effectively. De Boer isn't good enough in the air, Boateng isn't clever enough – and Helguera's presence does little or nothing to make up for these deficiencies. Does not sound about right. Klinsmann is the best striker on the park, but he isn't unplayable in this context. Bebeto, I should probably admit, is a player I've never rated all that highly other than as a sidekick for a certain kind of partner (which was a role he excelled in for Brazil, but that isn't relevant here). I get the idea of him, sure. But I don't see him as providing enough here to tip the scales.

Ziege, for what it's worth, was poor for my money in a purely defensive sense. Downright poor in this context. Mannini was decent, though – more than decent defensively compared to most present-day fullbacks. But the left side, considered as such, consists of a player who would be best deployed as a wingback – and Andreas Möller, who was an extremely cnutish, but absolutely brilliant, player. But he isn't a naturally wide player for one thing, nor does he add any defensive nous (for me, he is almost purely an attacking midfielder). I mention this specifically in the context of my point above, pertaining to the potential threat of Edgar's wingbacks.

 

[Moby]

Bebeto, I should probably admit, is a player I've never rated all that highly other than as a sidekick for a certain kind of partner

He was pretty much the main man in that fantastic Depor team. Finished La Liga top scorer in his first season there and scored over 30 goals in a season three times, in his four years at the Spanish club. That is the form that is being considered here and he's a great foil for Klinsmann while also adding tremendous goal threat.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

We're well equipped there.

You aren't that well equipped actually. A common mistake to make, so they tell me. I won't hold it against you.

 

[Skizzo]

You aren't that well equipped actually. A common mistake to make, so they tell me. I won't hold it against you.

I don't even know if that was a comment on the game, or an underhanded jibe at my sex life

 

[Gio]

Lizarazu is a great wing back, but what goal threat does he contribute to? crosses? We're well equipped there.

Since you asked...

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He was pretty much the main man in that fantastic Depor team. Finished La Liga top scorer in his first season there and scored over 30 goals in a season three times, in his four years at the Spanish club. That is the form that is being considered here and he's a great foil for Klinsmann while also adding tremendous goal threat.

The first part is completely irrelevant. Only the second part matters here. Would he work as a great (your choice of words) foil for Klinsmann, in this set-up, with this overall cast of players? No, I don't think he would. Not to the required degree. And what is the required degree? That he works as such, being decent enough in the hypothetical match we base our vote on, and so forth? No, that isn't the required degree. Not for me.

 

[Ecstatic]

Congrats guys for this great battle.

Penalty shout-outs is maybe the right outcome between a defensive team probably more consistent tactically and a team ready to take much more risks.

In fact, I know the value of the team of @Edgar Allan Pillow but the team of @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard is very obscure to me. Sorry.

 

[Moby]

The first part is completely irrelevant. Only the second part matters here. Would he work as a great (your choice of words) foil for Klinsmann, in this set-up, with this overall cast of players? No, I don't think he would. Not to the required degree. And what is the required degree? That he works as such, being decent enough in the hypothetical match we base our vote on, and so forth? No, that isn't the required degree. Not for me.

I was just replying to your comment that you only saw him as a sidekick.

 

[Gio]

I'm surprised SkizzoPat never went the whole hog and played a 3-5-2. I thought the likes of Hierro, Chiellini, Ziege and Klinsman were well suited to that formation, while there were some strong Serie A right wing-backs available at the death in Di Livio and Torricielli. In the same way there were several talented 'spare' central defenders like Ramelow, Marquez, Naybet who would have been in their element in the middle of a back three. For sure Basler may have had to sit on the bench, but Moller would have been given centre stage rather than the somewhat crowbarred in role he has here.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I was just replying to your comment that you only saw him as a sidekick.

I see him as a sidekick (and he's pretty much sold as such) in this context.

That's no insult to him as a player. His true claim to fame is being a sidekick. That and being the bloke who may have scored a historical penalty for his side.

Alright, I'll come clean about it - I don't like him. I've never liked him. Something about him always rubbed me the wrong way.

But I'm a fair man. More or less. So, my vote here is not unduly influenced by my distaste for Bebeto. I buy him as a foil (it would be utterly stupid not to) but I don't think he's good enough to make a difference here. And that's what you need - ain't it?

 

[Skizzo]

@Marty1968 so how are we doing the penalties now?

@Edgar Allan Pillow good game mate. Back and forth all over the place. Probably the most fitting way to wrap this up.

 

[Marty1968]

First game goes to penalties. Ok so are we going for the usual tried and tested way or the new (who has the best keeper poll) first???

 

[MJJ]

4 min too late. Sorry @Skizzo

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Edgar Allan Pillow good game mate. Back and forth all over the place. Probably the most fitting way to wrap this up.

10" - EAP 2 - 0 Skizzo/Pat
55" - EAP 2 - 4 Skizzo/Pat
75" - EAP 4 - 4 Skizzo/Pat
80" - EAP 5 - 4 Skizzo/Pat
90" - EAP 5 - 5 Skizzo/Pat

 

[harms]

First game goes to penalties. Ok so are we going for the usual tried and tested way or the new (who has the best keeper poll) first???

We can try the keepers idea but then you have to include a "draw" option which doesn't give an advantage for one side - here, for example, there isn't much between the keepers so it would be fair not to punish one of the teams if most of the voters decide that their keepers are on the same level

 

[Moby]

4 min too late. Sorry @Skizzo

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

4 min too late. Sorry @Skizzo

Feck. Thought you were going to vote for Vieri/Inzaghi in my team.

 

[Skizzo]

4 min too late. Sorry @Skizzo

It's all good. Downcast sounded like he was leaning towards Edgar anyway, but ended up being diplomatic.

If he stuck the knife in and voted for Edgar...then we'd be having a chat

 

[Marty1968]

We can try the keepers idea but then you have to include a "draw" option which doesn't give an advantage for one side - here, for example, there isn't much between the keepers so it would be fair not to punish one of the teams if most of the voters decide that their keepers are on the same level

Yeah so would need three options 1. Kopke 2. Same Level 3. Zenga . Whichever has the most dictates the rules for the pens....

...only trouble is it now will drag it our for an hour or so...

 

[Marty1968]

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard @Edgar Allan Pillow what do you think?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It's all good. Downcast sounded like he was leaning towards Edgar anyway, but ended up being diplomatic.

If he stuck the knife in and voted for Edgar...then we'd be having a chat

I was about to nuedge him my way..but had to take a call and forgot about that.

 

[Gio]

Yeah the keepers are fairly similar. You'd maybe give a slight advantage to Zenga, but it's marginal at best and I'd have them broadly on par.

 

[Skizzo]

I don't think there's a huge discrepancy between keepers. I think @Edgar Allan Pillow would agree. I'm fine doing it the old fashioned way.

Unless we lose. Then we can go back and decide on keepers

 

[Skizzo]

Good thing Zenga is agile enough to reach those corners.

come on Spiderman!

 

[Marty1968]

I don't think there's a huge discrepancy between keepers. I think @Edgar Allan Pillow would agree. I'm fine doing it the old fashioned way.

Unless we lose. Then we can go back and decide on keepers

Ok well then if @Edgar Allan Pillow is ok with it then we'll get cracking

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Yeah so would need three options 1. Kopke 2. Same Level 3. Zenga . Whichever has the most dictates the rules for the pens....

...only trouble is it now will drag it our for an hour or so...

I'd say Zenga is better but in this draft context it's marginal. Let's do it old fashioned way @Skizzo

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm surprised SkizzoPat never went the whole hog and played a 3-5-2. I thought the likes of Hierro, Chiellini, Ziege and Klinsman were well suited to that formation, while there were some strong Serie A right wing-backs available at the death in Di Livio and Torricielli. In the same way there were several talented 'spare' central defenders like Ramelow, Marquez, Naybet who would have been in their element in the middle of a back three. For sure Basler may have had to sit on the bench, but Moller would have been given centre stage rather than the somewhat crowbarred in role he has here.

Agreed. Apart from - on a purely irrational level - simply liking Ed's team as such (which is allowed for a voter, I should say), I don't buy Ziege in a straight-ish four at all. The overall setup requires a different sort of player in that role, for me - a defender to a degree Ziege isn't even close to.

To put it in extreme terms, both of Edgar's designated wingbacks are on a different level to Ziege as pure defenders - and they're actually playing as wingbacks.

 

[Moby]

I don't think he's good enough to make a difference here. And that's what you need - ain't it?

Well.

I see him as a sidekick (and he's pretty much sold as such) in this context.

He may be one in this setup, and he may be one for Brazil which is irrelevant here, and he surely wasn't one for four years he played La Liga the time which is pretty much relevant here, so yeah, he wasn't always a sidekick, certainly not in the games we are evaluating here, I'm sure you'll agree.

Alright, I'll come clean about it - I don't like him.

Let's just say we hold very contrasting feelings about him. He was a bright spark of his era, to say the least. Fine, dangerous, player - for my money.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't think there's a huge discrepancy between keepers. I think @Edgar Allan Pillow would agree. I'm fine doing it the old fashioned way.

Unless we lose. Then we can go back and decide on keepers

My thoughts too.

So

5 attempts?
Keeper - L, R C
Striker - L, R C

@Marty1968 ?

 

[Skizzo]

I'd say Zenga is better but in this draft context it's marginal. Let's do it old fashioned way @Skizzo

sent mine over

good luck. again

 

[Marty1968]

Ok then chaps, please send me your selection. 5 pens each : left/right/centre

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Sent.

Kopke is gonna score and win this for me!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well.

Well. Google "pippo grabs the winner" or something similar, and you'll get plenty of
ammunition for the other side. I'm not disputing that he was a very good player.

 

[Isotope]

C'mon folks, just be honest. For me, Zenga is the better Gk.

Although there's no such thing in the OP draft about better Gk having advantage on PK.

 

[Skizzo]

Sent.

Kopke is gonna score and win this for me!

I picked as many Germans as possible.

Bebeto decided to not take one.

 

[Marty1968]

Well that was unbelievable Geoff! Cracking game, some wonderful finishes.

Time for penalties Geoff. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE!

 

[Skizzo]

C'mon folks, just be honest. For me, Zenga is the better Gk.

Although there's no such thing in the OP draft about better Gk having advantage on PK.

I'd agree, I think everyone would, that Zenga is a little better. However, it would be marginal, I think, and no point giving one team a huge advantage because of it.

 

[Moby]

Well. Google "pippo grabs the winner" or something similar, and you'll get plenty of
ammunition for the other side. I'm not disputing that he was a very good player.

Of course, Pippo's more than good enough to make a difference here as well. Though we are all familiar with his reliance on service, a problem one wouldn't encounter with someone like Bebeto who could easily create a goal for himself. One shouldn't discount someone who scored over 30 goals in a season in 3 out of 4 seasons while playing for a club like Depor, a fine feat.