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The video clip actually presents Lampard's argument better (and makes it more compelling).
Lampard on Pogba
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
The video clip actually presents Lampard's argument better (and makes it more compelling).
I think this is very accurate. He is like a more naturally version of Gerrard who also could never do it all at once. His best offensively came when Benitez did not trust him deeper so he put him further up to the left where linked up with Torres. He had a very defined role that focused on what he was best at. When he was playing deeper like with England or other Liverpool managers, he was never as effective. He would pop in with the occasional match winner performance but most of the time, would end up being nothing more than a decent midfielder who does a lot of running and hard work without being especially effective. Pogba's example at Juventus is the same. It is not about the formation per se but having a defined role that he can get familiar with and that doesn't keep changing game in game out. To be fair to Mourinho though, he probably cannot afford to wait for Pogba to achieve that consistency and is forced to use him for different tasks because the midfield overall is not functioning smoothly.
I like Pogba but goodness there are games where everytime he touches the ball he wants to turn it into the Pogba show. He starts taking extra touches in positions it makes no sense to do so. Wants to show off his strength and fancy flicks. This isn't 3v3 beach soccer. He needs to realise he's tanking his own efficiency
Pogba's output has been fine, it's his inconsistent performances in between games that's a major problem. He started the season very well producing consistent performances one after the other but his form really tailed off during February after a busy Christmas period. Some of the criticism over his performances during last 3 months is warranted but I think he has shown improvement compared to the last year, especially in big matches.
I don't think he'll ever become our reliable playmaker, he just can't do that consistently match after match so it's important we sign a new CM who can move the ball quickly and allow Pogba to do what he does best in the final third.
I don't think he'll ever become our reliable playmaker, he just can't do that consistently match after match so it's important we sign a new CM who can move the ball quickly and allow Pogba to do what he does best in the final third.
Gerrard to some extent I agree but Lampard would have most passes of anyone in Chelsea team, he was very good at moving the ball. I feel Pogba would really benefit alongside another playmaker who can help us move the ball quicker allowing Pogba himself to simplify his game which is where he's at his best.
Bang on point.
Another thing is that Pogba is a showman, an entertainer. How his hair looks and how he wows you with an impressive dribble on the pitch are important to him. and apparently, a bit too important. Give him Kevin De Bruyn's killer instincts on the pitch and he will rule the world.
People are getting too hung on the "15 goals" comment, the main point he was making was in relation to his infuriating levels of inconsistency. A massive source of frustration for me when I am watching us play. You see him pull off something mindblowing, and then 5 minutes later he's misplacing easy passes and dribbling into a wall of opposition players. Lampard is spot on here.
That gets to the heart of why Pogba is so overrated on this forum.
It's also why Martial is considered to have the potential he does.
Neither is currently on course to become world class.
The English media has this obsession with showboating and flair players. Has Lampard ever watched videos of midfielders like Falcao or Didi? There is nothing wrong with Pogba's tricks. It gets mentioned in almost every article about him but no one seems to recognise that 'in their day' Gerrard was bang average unless he was absolved of defensive responsibility, Lampard was effectively a second striker, and even Scholes was either attacking or sitting, never both at once. At the moment we expect Pogba to be all those three combined with a bit of Keane/Viera added in for good measure.
The tricks are part of his natural game and we shouldnt try to curtail that. He shouldn't do them on the edge of his own box but then he shouldn't really be on the edge of his own box.
Of course. Neymar does that stuff all the time. Ronaldinho is the biggest showboater of all and look how he inspired players. I don't see people having any problems there. Pogba is a flair player that will entertain and shouldn't be discouraged from trying things. At the end of the day people pay to watch these kind of players.
I think Lampard has this spot on to be honest.
The consistency issue with Pogba is why he's not a key man and won't be for any top club until he fixes that. You can point to his decent assist numbers (the total at least) all you like, the game isn't played on a spreadsheet. He's not dependable and that's a big no-no for a player of his supposed reputation.
Personaly knew something wasn't right with him when he got bullied by Jordan Henderson at Old Trafford. Couldn't believe what I was seeing.
The consistency issue with Pogba is why he's not a key man and won't be for any top club until he fixes that. You can point to his decent assist numbers (the total at least) all you like, the game isn't played on a spreadsheet. He's not dependable and that's a big no-no for a player of his supposed reputation.
Personaly knew something wasn't right with him when he got bullied by Jordan Henderson at Old Trafford. Couldn't believe what I was seeing.
I think he's being asked to simultaneously control the game while making the difference in attack. If United had a Xavi or Verratti type of midfielder next to Matic, I think Pogba would have more freedom and he would look much better.
That still doesn't excuse some of the performances he's had this season though
That still doesn't excuse some of the performances he's had this season though
He is, there are far too many people making excuses for Pogba.
Time and place. key part of football is decision making. holding onto the ball, on the halfway line, for a few extra seconds rather than moving it on to a teammate so you can do an extra cruyff turn, take an extra touch or a step over, isn't positive. its self indulgent and just looks good on the gram. We need to move the ball quickly at times and showboating when we are not winning, just because.....is pretty weak tbf. its all about moments and I am sure Jose agrees. remember when he was harping on about us being masters of overcomplication? "always an extra touch, always an extra turn, always this always that
Lampard might have forgotten that Pogba missed 3 months with injury this season. His end product is perfectly fine and he doesnt need to score more often.
Yeah, half of what Lampard says is correct. His decision making needs to improve but that comes with playing in a settled position that fits his strengths. It wont happen if he is playing in different positions where he has to take a second to think what to do when he gets the ball. Plus there is this weird obsession with his hair and his Instagram that has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to play football.
Comparisons with Ronaldinho etc are ridiculous. His influence on games in his pomp was beyond question and consistent. Pogba's is not. At least not yet. Once it is, the tricks become a welcome embellishment rather than a distraction. At the moment, they just add to the sense that he's mostly veneer.
Very interesting question! Worth looking up. I wonder if there is already a nice stat depicting that but even in today’s day and age of stat overload I think one would have to correlate that manually.
Will have a look when I am not restricted to mobile access.
Probably easier to use a benchmark of goals per CM then go by historical team formations for top leagues in Europe at least.
Think if he doesn't spread his goals and assists out more (be more consistent), he's a glorified luxury player. Or to put in a more negative way, a fecking liability.
He went from mid-Nov to April without scoring in the league. Not great to be honest - that was after his major period of absence through injury.
And even when you look at his assists in the league, they came in 7 matches. 10 assists total for the season, 6 of those came in three matches. Only 1 assist in the league after mid-Jan.
Which will get better once we have a more coherent partnership. Just think that he has literally had zero options out on the right to distribute play and control tempo. If your options are dominated by underwhelming left side and non existent right side then your only option is risky play up the central channel all the while realising if you feck up there are no proper WB’s to cover going backwards let alone options going forward out right.
All shite?
I'd say so too. I'd like to see him shooting but not just past the post every time.
Lampard seemed to have confused that Pogba is not realizing his potential because he focuses too much on tricks and flicks. POgba might not have performed at the very high level, but the tricks and flicks are hardly the reason for it.
I will take POgba over any other midfielder in the PL except for KDB.
I will take POgba over any other midfielder in the PL except for KDB.
You and your fecking facts spoiling another opportunity for us to have digs at our best player.
I for one am sick of it!
Bingo!
This is stark but also true. There are some days where I worry that Sir Alex will be proved right in his decision to cut Pogba adrift.
In terms of raw ability Pogba and Martial should become world class but the ways in which they use their gifts isn't making that more likely.
I agree with some of what he's saying, mainly apart from putting a number of goals as a target. He's a central midfielder. He should be doing a midfielders job. Goals are a bonus, so long as he's creating spaces and chances, making the team tick and bossing the game.
Lampard's right that he should be bossing games, he has the ability to do that, but goalscoring is far down the list of what I think should be expected of a central midfielder. You look at guys like Kroos and Modric, they are elite midfielders, but not goal scorers, they get 2 or 3 a season each. If Pogba could do either or a bit of both of what Kroos and Modric do, then I don't care if he scores zero goals a season.
The whole team should be chipping in, but only forwards should have goal targets IMO. Midfielders should be the ones helping them hit those targets.
Lampard's right that he should be bossing games, he has the ability to do that, but goalscoring is far down the list of what I think should be expected of a central midfielder. You look at guys like Kroos and Modric, they are elite midfielders, but not goal scorers, they get 2 or 3 a season each. If Pogba could do either or a bit of both of what Kroos and Modric do, then I don't care if he scores zero goals a season.
The whole team should be chipping in, but only forwards should have goal targets IMO. Midfielders should be the ones helping them hit those targets.
Sink or swim time now for Pogba. The playing in a 2 with a dm that Jose thought would work isn't going to work, nor will it ever. Pogba doesn't have the defensive nous for it. So we either back him or get rid. He needs defensive cover as does Matic. In that they would flourish or at least have a better chance to. I understand Jose thinking he could play Pogba in a 2, he has the tools in theory, but in reality he didn't. Shouldn't have taken him 2 seasons though to address it. Even those recent games where Herrera played dm, the shape looked better. We know the ability is there, we need the player to be more consistent and the manager to give him the appropiate back up. We are going into season 3 soon still talking about how good he can become.
Spot on. Lampard is one of the best pundits around. One of the few rival players I really loved as a player so not a surprise to still respect him now as a pundit.
Don't think people care too much about the goal target provided he's doing the job of a midfielder (and everything that goes with it) rather than strolling around in midfield. If you do the latter, you better justify it with exceptional output in the final third.
Lampard has a point. I don't see a reason to get stuck on the "15 goals" part.
Pogba is wildly consistent. He seems deeply immature and seems to only want to do the fun things on the pitch. At age 25 I'm unsure if that immaturity will ever really improve.
Pogba is wildly consistent. He seems deeply immature and seems to only want to do the fun things on the pitch. At age 25 I'm unsure if that immaturity will ever really improve.
He is right and wrong. Wrong about 15 goals, you don't need to score 15 goals to be a world class midfielder. It's not midfielders job. However he is right about everything else. We can clearly see the talent Pogba has. But his consistency, attitude, positioning and footballing brain is quite shocking actually. He has absolutely no idea how to control midfield and tempo in the game and he is one of the reasons why we are so slow in moving the ball. He takes far too many touches and unnecessary dribbles.
15 or not, he definitely should be more of a goal threat. Shoot more, get in the box more, in transition when he has lots of space get the ball to him.
I do think, it is a case of us not using him to his potential, but his attitude and consistency should also be much better.
I do think, it is a case of us not using him to his potential, but his attitude and consistency should also be much better.
Look at the quotes in the op, Lampard himself says Pogba is more talented than him.
Mbappe was the initiator of the very important away goal at Madrid. He was bad in the return leg, but it is not like he didn‘t score for fun at just 18 years for Monaco in the CL.
He's never going to be the type to boss games, not sure why this expectation is placed on him. His best work is done further up the pitch. He's not going to be that mid picking the ball up deep and initiating attacks and dictating the pace of the game. He needs the right people to play with him to maximise his ability. His passing in the final 3rd is effortless at times, his runs into the box are quality. I think that's why the goal return expectation is legit.
Can't really disagree with Frank's comments. Pogba is for better or worse - part footballer and part social media celebrity, where both are interwoven. Each time he doesn't put in a world class performance he will be slated for his social media activity. Its hardly new though. People were openly contemptuous of Becks' celebrity when he was here and that was well before social media arrived.
I have seen him do that in games and people have accused him of playing within himself.
He will never be allowed to win. Ever.
SAF didn't decide to get rid of him ffs... We were very interested in keeping him. Offered higher wages than Juve did.
"Never be allowed to win. Ever."
Yeah there's totally some conspiracy/agenda against him. 
Obviously no player can keep every caftard happy but on the days he keeps it simple and gets the basics consistently right I’d say the vast amount of comments about his performance are positive. That’s really all he needs to do. He just needs to keep his fancy stuff under wraps until he reaches the final third.
Lampard is spot on about the lunacy of flicks and tricks and dribbling past people deep in our own half. All the more so when this often results in him flat on his back, waving at the ref while the opposition charge towards our goal. Cut that shit out and he’d divide opinions a hell of a lot less.
I think most would excuse him if he was doing either one of these things at any given time but mostly he does neither. There were plenty of games where he was played in a midfield three and given freedom where he was just as poor as in a two. The problem is his application. I have no problems with doing tricks and flicks and all that when it's necessary but he usually does them just because he can, rather than for any specific reason.
It's possible the hamstring injury had a greater impact on his dynamism this season than most realise. I don't think he sprinted nearly as much afterwards.
His goals/assists productivity is fine (pretty good actually, but I still think he can do better). He has some way to go on his consistency, but the same could be same for every single player in our squad. It's not easy to perform consistently in this team. I don't mean to fully absolve Pogba, that January-March period was absolutely dire, but there are extenuating circumstances.