if his scoring numbers were better, we would not play in a 2 as we could sacrifice the 10. that's the point
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Lampard on Pogba
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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He is a very creative midfielder when put in the right system. When he came to us he was this very creative midfielder, who drove forward and linked up with the attackers, sometimes coming deep, but generally leaving that to the other midfielders next to him. His goal and assist tally is more than good enough, and not really a concern for me with the way he has been played.
What i think Mourinho has tried to do with him here, is turning him into a more well-rounded player who can dictate play, while still drive forward but also keep defensive shape. That hasn't worked out at all. What will happen next i don't know, but i don't think Mourinho's experiment in turning him into this box-to-box player will work-out in the long run. He doesn't seem capable to do what is required of that role.
What i think Mourinho has tried to do with him here, is turning him into a more well-rounded player who can dictate play, while still drive forward but also keep defensive shape. That hasn't worked out at all. What will happen next i don't know, but i don't think Mourinho's experiment in turning him into this box-to-box player will work-out in the long run. He doesn't seem capable to do what is required of that role.
No doubt. His passing has been far better than his finishing/long shots since he has been here. literally the opposite to what I expected funny enough.
Thats like saying if your left back starts scoring at a winger's rate, you wouldnt play a winger. Unless your system allows the player to get into the right position, he will not be scoring the goals. There is no midfielder in the world who can score 15 goals while playing in a midfield two.
Pogba's output is the least of his concerns.
His problem is that he has no constant level.
He can look like one of the best midfielders and a Sunday league pub player within the space of 5 minutes.
His problem is that he has no constant level.
He can look like one of the best midfielders and a Sunday league pub player within the space of 5 minutes.
Maybe people overestimate him and think he has the talent to do this. People see him more b2b than DLP and an attacking presence. the reality is that the City performance is not the norm, but for some reason in England we think that is his status quo and he can be like Lamps or Gerrard, getting on the end of things and deciding games etc. Its a misjudgement
The issue with Pogba is very much similar to the Ramsey problem at Arsenal.
Pogba's biggest problem isn't his numbers, because they're actually fairly decent. His biggest problem is that he'll deliver a 9/10 performance one week and a 2/10 performance the next. You don't know what player you're going to get, and he's too talented and trusted with a role that's too important for him to be like that. He should be a key player for us that can be relied upon to deliver a 6/10 at worst, and regularly come up with match winning moments.
Zlatan had some absolute stinkers last year, but still came up with important goals and moments of magic when the chips were down. It's what separates the truly top class players from those on the tier below. At the moment Pogba is performing similarly to Nani, when in reality he should be closer to Ronaldo.
Zlatan had some absolute stinkers last year, but still came up with important goals and moments of magic when the chips were down. It's what separates the truly top class players from those on the tier below. At the moment Pogba is performing similarly to Nani, when in reality he should be closer to Ronaldo.
this season his performances when played in midfield 2 vs Midfield 3.
Midfield 2 - 1591 mins - 1 goal + 6 assists (227 mins per G+A)
Midfield 3 - 1013 mins - 6 goals + 5 assists (92 mins per G+A)
When played in midfield 3 his productivity is so much better.
In Just PL:
Midfield 2: 1253 mins - 6 G+A (208 mins per G+A)
Midfield 3: 713 mins - 10 G+A (71 mins per G+A)
Pogba scores about 1 in 5 for us. Lampard scored 1 in 3, played further up the pitch and was the first choice penalty taker.
Frank is harsh, but he is only harsh because he thinks so highly of Pogba.
Pogba has the talent to be one of the best PL midfielders ever, he is even next in line for France talent wise after Platini and Zidane as far as attacking midfielders go. He should be dominating the pitch consistently, scoring goals in big numbers like Platini and in the biggest games like Zidane did.
I know that is much to ask for, but it is not like he is the only out-of-world talent having high standards. Mbappe has been compared to Ronaldo9 and he is delivering constantly. The other one is Neymar and he has been incredibly consistent in terms of performances and numbers. He is even the best player in national team football. Those three are the most talented players after the Messi and Ronaldo generation and one of them is not performing like he should.
It is a shame and maybe he has bad luck with his coach. If you look at Eriksen under Poch or James under Heynckes, you can‘t help but feel he would do better under them.
Pogba has the talent to be one of the best PL midfielders ever, he is even next in line for France talent wise after Platini and Zidane as far as attacking midfielders go. He should be dominating the pitch consistently, scoring goals in big numbers like Platini and in the biggest games like Zidane did.
I know that is much to ask for, but it is not like he is the only out-of-world talent having high standards. Mbappe has been compared to Ronaldo9 and he is delivering constantly. The other one is Neymar and he has been incredibly consistent in terms of performances and numbers. He is even the best player in national team football. Those three are the most talented players after the Messi and Ronaldo generation and one of them is not performing like he should.
It is a shame and maybe he has bad luck with his coach. If you look at Eriksen under Poch or James under Heynckes, you can‘t help but feel he would do better under them.
I wouldn't say that it's misjudgement. He can do all of these things separately but not at the same time, the same way Lampard and Gerrard didn't do all of these things, they had a niche and were excellent within it. The problem with Pogba is that at Juventus he had a well defined role, he was the spark and nothing else, for us he is everything and sometimes nothing.
If you penalties then Lampard scored 1 in 4 in league, not big difference
Lampard is bang on here. Pogba needs to think less about YouTube compilations and haircuts and more about finding some semblence of consistency in his performances. He's all over the place.
He played in a 3 at Juve and never hit those numebers. But yeah his numbers have been good, its the consistency of play that holds him back and also the indifferent performances and those when he looks one of our worst players. Its like Rooney. Players of this level should not be a so sub par for a 90 minute game so frequently.
Lampard's right, especially the part about Pogba overelaborating and dribbling in his own half. If Pogba hit the direct ball more and did the flashy stuff less our transitions would be a lot quicker and we'd score more. Our midfield is a massive problem given the way we're set up to play. Either through selfishness or shyness they move the ball to slowly forward.
Its not really though at all and is a false equivalence. for one we have played him in a free in periods so it is something the manager can be willing to do. secondly he played in a 3 in Italy and was not this type of player. Vidal was the one banging them in.
I never get that impression with this ongoing "Pogba needs to get better" opinions from former midfielders (Scholes is the other one). It always sounds to me like they're worried that they're going to be left in the dust. Or they've all turned into fuddy-duddies.
btw, Mbappe did nothing in the CL tie against RM.
There's plenty to disagree with in that. Six goals and twelve assists are good numbers for a central midfielder. After the City quad, Paul Pogba had the most assists in the league.
Even at his best in a dominant Juventus side the most goals he scored in a single season was 8. The idea that he should easily be hitting 15+ - which would make him the 5th top scorer in the league - is absolutely silly.
And all of this is even without the context of how much synergy and cohesion our attack lacks.
Even at his best in a dominant Juventus side the most goals he scored in a single season was 8. The idea that he should easily be hitting 15+ - which would make him the 5th top scorer in the league - is absolutely silly.
And all of this is even without the context of how much synergy and cohesion our attack lacks.
Still a bit short sample size and also need to see who they games were against and what was the tactial set up. some formations may have been used more frequently in defensive lock up shop games due to Jose tactical instruction e.g. Spurs away. I need a bigger sample size to make a fair judgement
Interesting way to describe it. Sounds like a dangerous tactic to employ in the prima donna age. In fairness Mourinho has tried all sorts of tactics with Pogba and I'd lay the blame primarily with the latter, but I'm not convinced this most recent tactic was particularly well thought through given the character he's dealing with. It's interesting actually that the most talented central midfielders in their mid-20s are among the most immature of any generation, I think - Verratti, Pogba, Thiago etc. All the talent in the world but all prone to incredibly immature moments at a time when many great centre mids from the past had entered their peak. I think it's an interesting reflection on the current group of players and the challenges they present.
That said I don't think Pogba will ever live up to people's expectations. His skillset is so vast that people expect him to excel in far too many areas. He's already much better than Lampard at many things. If you could add his composure in front of goal to Pogba he'd already be better than Lampard ever was. Admittedly Lampard's composure was really exceptional and Pogba's is atrocious, so that isn't a small difference. And I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone that says output doesn't matter for a player with Pogba's skillset and freedom. But I think there's a strange amount of focus placed on his deficiencies.
His point is right but I don't agree with how he has expressed it. Pogba goes from brilliant to barely there on a game by game basis, but Lampard of all people should appreciate how the system affects things like numbers. Fixating on goal tallies is wrong for a central midfielder, unless theyre practically a second striker like Lampard was for much of his Chelsea career. He never broke 10 goals until he started playing in a system built around him at Chelsea.
Pogba needs to start controlling games more consistently, not score more goals. I'd be over the moon if he never broke 5 goals but created 5 or 6 good chances every game.
Pogba needs to start controlling games more consistently, not score more goals. I'd be over the moon if he never broke 5 goals but created 5 or 6 good chances every game.
Not sure why any of that means he can't be expected to get more? Are you saying Pogba can't play the Lampard role or isn't being asked to?
The latter I'd agree with partially but thats probably where we're now expecting him to play.
He's shown he can't do the box to box disciplined role so if he wants the freedom to roam then he needs to get close to those numbers.
And to get close to these numbers, he needs the freedom to roam. Who came first the egg or the chicken?
It's fine to expect more. It's not fine to state that a player should easily be getting more. We're not some free-flowing machine - we often play tumescent football and essentially every attacker in our team suffers due to it. Part is down to them, but a big part has to be down to tactics.
It's all well and good to say Pogba should dominate games more and score more goals - because, you know, he probably should. But you have to contextualise this with the fact that we are a squad who scored 11 goals in our last 8 league games.
Paul Pogba isn't the only star in our team underwhelming - attacks consisting of players like Pogba, Alexis Sanchez, Lukaku, and one of Martial/Rashford/Mata fail to amount to much in most of our games. There's quite clearly a deeper lying issue than simply individual quality.
Spot on. No midfielder in the world would score 15 goals from a central midfield position the way we've played this season. Such a lazy argument to just say, "he should score at least 15", without even concidering how we've looked for large parts of the season. That isn't just down to Pogba, even though a lot seems to think he's the main culprit for the way we play.
Not everyone can be a gourmet Kevin Nolan.
You can just check the first few games in PL too when Fellani was brought on, Pogba started to bomb forward and end up getting goal or assist.
Whatever it is, his productivity is very good for a CM.
It's true. Numbers shouldn't be everything with a midfielder, but a player of his style, who often gets played in a pretty attacking role and isn't shy of taking a shot should be getting better numbers in terms of goals/assists.
I'd settle for a poundshop Paul Scholes: Look up, hit the pass. Not dribble down a cul-de-sac and let the opportunity to release a forward fly by.
His numbers are pretty much on a par with Lampards numbers at 25 years of age when you combine goals and assists. Unless you're our next assistant manager Frank, you needn't worry.
Also, super goals, we love it.
Also, super goals, we love it.
Every attacking player in our team should be getting better numbers. What does that tell you?
Without checking the stats, I'd say he's shooting far less this year than last.
Our main striker got 16 goals, but Pogba should easily get 15 goals in PL each season... Feck me...
They play different positions.
He's spot on.
I think I'm just of the opinion he has more freedom than he shows. You see it after half time when they get a bollocking he attacks further up and from Carrick was saying they've been discussing his runs in training too.And to get close to these numbers, he needs the freedom to roam. Who came first the egg or the chicken?
You are spot on about us needing a midfielder capable of controlling the tempo of the game. Pogba is not and will never be the player, and if he was brought in to do that job it was a massive mistake.
This is what I feel as well. Pogba has never been the all action box to box midfielder that people want or expect him to be. At Juventus Pogba’s role was clearly defined. He played as what is known in Italy as a “mezz’ala” — literally, a “half-wing”. His job was not to roam all over the pitch, but instead work in tandem with the full-back to dominate his flank, dropping back when required and marauding forward when the opportunity presents. It is a position that makes the most of his talents. So even at Juve Pogba was never the box to box midfielder. Vidal was. Pogba's job was more to work off the surging forward runs of the LB and attack the channels from deep to pick defences apart with passing or take the ball past his markers with his dribbling. IMO we need to do two things to get Pogba back to his Juve form.
1. Top quality LB ie Sandro. This will make a massive difference
2. A proper box to box midfielder like Vidal was. Someone who can carry the ball. The mistake people are making is thinking that Pogba can be that box to box midfielder. Perhaps due to his physique and build some think that he has to be that all action midfielder but using him as a box to box midfielder in the context of the English game is a waste. At United we are trying to make him into this all round player that can do everything at once. Dictate play, still get forward but also hold the defensive shape. It's not going to work.
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To be fair, Deschamps said the same thing, apparently Pogba is wary when he plays in a midfield two and he doesn't play as high as he is supposed to. I remember several games where you can see Deschamps telling him to play higher.