LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

[Ivor Ballokov]

I'm not denying the concept of heaven and hell exist in some faiths.

I'm critiquing Liberalism, which the majority in this thread are using as some bastion of truth. I gave an example of how liberalism fails to provide any morality beyond that , that is accepted by society. This can change at any time. If paedophilia became a recognised sexual orientation, then liberalism would not see it as morally wrong.

Religion has sin for believers. Not sure why this bothers non believers so much? If you don't believe in God , then why do you care if it's a sin? In secular society, it matters little as these sins don't impact individuals outside of those within the community.

So religion hasn't adapted over time?

 

[Zlatattack]

I'm not quite sure how accurate what you have read is. Though in truth I am not familiar with what modern sex education entails. You can however withdraw your child from sex education, even after September 2020. So that isn't really an issue. Sex Ed in my day was basically how to use a condom, with kids struggling to contain their laughter (Think this was in Year 6, so I'd have been 10 or 11). I didn't find it very helpful at all. As a child/teenager however, I did have immense feelings of guilt when I first started masturbating. Being told this is a normal part of growing up and a normal thing to do wouldn't be damaging at all, it would be the opposite.

As for not wanting your child to know that same-sex couples exist and are a part of society, well with all due respect that decision is being taken out of your hands. Your child will be just fine.

That is the key bit. Because schools don't know what they're doing yet, they're not in consulting parents yet, and there is an active campaign against the RSE changes, and this leaves scope for misinformation. This is why i think this will all turn out to be a big fuss over nothing. But the propaganda against it is strong, and people are dumb, nobody does background checks on what they read; that's how we ended up with brexit.

I think the vast majority of what is being taught in RSE is important, i think modern day Muslims are overly prudish about sex and sexuality, we don't discuss it within our homes or our classrooms. I just want to be sure it's being delivered at an age appropriate time and in an age appropriate manner.

For example if there is a trans kid in primary school, i think it's really important that kids in that school understand trans identity, but if there isn't then i don't think it'll help a 5 year old grasping with basic stuff to delve into something so complex.

it boils down to trust and communication. Right now there is little of both.

 

[Grinner]

So religion hasn't adapted over time?

Don't they go through mental gymnastics to deal with new facts? They are always adapting the word of the infallible god.

 

[Zlatattack]

Also I hate religion but I'm not a fascist.

I'm going to go back and edit my post. I just always feel it's so difficult to engage with people who start with "I hate all religion" and "religion is evil", because to me that reads as "your values are based on evil, therefore you must also be evil".

 

[RussellWilson]

So religion hasn't adapted over time?

Some may have, like Christianity to extent.

But as a general rule, religious rules provide a framework of objective morality.

 

[Cascarino]

Liberalism has no objective morality, if tomorrow the norm in society was for child and an adult to love each other and those relationships became okay with no harm.

What views? That sodomy is a sin? For all types of relationships, hetro or non hetro.

I'm critiquing Liberalism, which the majority in this thread are using as some bastion of truth. I gave an example of how liberalism fails to provide any morality beyond that , that is accepted by society. This can change at any time. If paedophilia became a recognised sexual orientation, then liberalism would not see it as morally wrong.

Well said brother. To avoid all the sodomy and children temptations I decided to become a Catholic priest at a young age and never looked back. Liberalism has a lot to answer for.

 

[Ivor Ballokov]

Don't they go through mental gymnastics to deal with new facts? They are always adapting the word of the infallible god.

They had to create a whole "New testament" because they ballsed the first one up so bad.

 

[RussellWilson]

Well said brother. To avoid all the sodomy and children temptations I decided to become a Catholic priest at a young age and never looked back. Liberalism has a lot to answer for.

"Religious" people sin.....shock horror! Doesn't change what I've said about objective morality and liberalism's flaw.

 

[harms]

There is nothing wrong with children being around gay people, or even gay people having children, but i don't think it's something a 5 year old should be taught.

That's nice to hear.

 

[Carolina Red]

There is nothing wrong with children being around gay people, or even gay people having children, but i don't think it's something a 5 year old should be taught

So when your 5 year old meets their friend’s two mommies or two daddies, and asks you about it, you’re just gonna...?

 

[Cascarino]

"Religious" people sin.....shock horror! Doesn't change what I've said about objective morality and liberalism's flaw.

I'm not sure what it is that you're trying to say? What you're critiquing absolutely applies to religion? Many disgusting laws have come from religion, as you know.

 

[Jippy]

I've been following this closely, especially as I'm Muslim and I have young kids. The concern is widespread amongst the Muslim community and it isn't an anti-Gay thing, it's about age appropriateness and the appropriateness of the wider content.

For example, I've read that they're proposing to teach children about the mechanics of sexual relationships. What masturbation is, what different sexual acts are. You don't need to be taught that in a class room, it certainly doesn't need to be mandatory. Furthermore there is no clear indication at what age such content will be taught.

Something else i've read is that children will be taught about the different ways people can indentify their gender as (other than the biological male and female), again with young children will only be confused by this. I think it's important to teach teenagers about this, but no 7 year old needs to know that some people transition genders or are non binary or whatever. They can't really get their head around it.

Similarly i've seen pre-school age books exlaining gay relationships to children. There is nothing wrong with children being around gay people, or even gay people having children, but i don't think it's something a 5 year old should be taught. At an older age, defintely.

Then there are other things you read about, like schools banning skirts, or a school near me now has mixed gender toilets. Girls aren't using those toilets at school now because they don't want to be in the same toilets as boys. I've seen these with my own eyes - so i know it's not a tabloid lie.

The bottom line is, i don't trust government or schools to deliver the content in an age/culturally appropriate manner, and the secrecy they all have about what content they'll deliver and to whom, makes it even worse.

I suspect it's a storm in a tea cup and when it's mandatory and rolled out in Sept 2020, we'll find it's quite sensible and age appropriate - but when you read about some of this more extreme stuff, and you get radio silence from the schools - it worries you.

The thing is, surely if you excluded your kids from that class, surely in the next break time, they'd just hear a secondhand version of what was taught from the other kids anyway?

 

[RussellWilson]

I'm not sure what it is that you're trying to say? What you're critiquing absolutely applies to religion? Many disgusting laws have come from religion, as you know.

I'm saying liberalism has no morality or standard to hang it's hat on.

Religious laws govern the lives of those in the religion and provides a moral framework for those individuals.

 

[Carolina Red]

I'm saying liberalism has no morality or standard to hang it's hat on.

Religious laws govern the lives of those in the religion and provides a moral framework for those individuals.

Theocratic laws also apply to anyone living within a theocratic country. Regardless of their personal beliefs.

And besides that, to the topic of homosexuality and Abrahamic religion, you don’t have to be a believer in it to grow up with believers around you telling you you’re an abomination.

 

[Zlatattack]

So when your 5 year old meets their friend’s two mommies or two daddies, and asks you about it, you’re just gonna...?

I'd explain it to my 5 year old. I'd probably say something like some people have 2 mums or 2 dads instead of 1 mum and 1 dad. If my child asked why, i'd say something like because they want to live like that and it makes them happy. I'd say most people have 1 mum and 1 dad but some people don't. They still live like a family and love each other.

I don't trust the school to do that without shoving someone else agenda down my childs throat.

 

[Zlatattack]

The thing is, surely if you excluded your kids from that class, surely in the next break time, they'd just hear a secondhand version of what was taught from the other kids anyway?

Absolutely. Ultimately i won't be taking my kids out of class - i'd rather be involved and know what is being taught and when so i can back up that teaching and clear up any misconceptions my children might have.

My whole worry is the lack of communication, the clear fact that there are two lobbies pushing agendas here (one is a LGBQT lobby and one is a barely hidden homophobic lobby) and i'm not sure schools are going to make the right decisions out of fear of "offending" the lobbies. What the schools need to worry about is our children and their best interests.

There is just so much propaganda and politics surrounding this, as a parent it worries me a lot more than any of the content.

 

[Volumiza]

I wouldn't purely because a child going through their own mental development at this stage is complicated enough without throwing in the grenade of what if you're actually a boy/girl. It's just ridiculous to throw in an adults morality and views on equalities onto a kid that age. Just let them develop and support them.

Great post.

It should (but often isn't I know) be a parents responsibility to ensure their children grow up with tolerance and respect of other people and the paths they all take through life and also be free to take whatever path they want (within reason and the confines of the law obviously). If this was done then schools wouldn't need to get involved slamming answers and explanations at children who are too young to even understand the question (or even that a question exists). I personally hate the thought of schools 'educating' my children in this stuff, it's my job.

I believe that schools should just normalise different issues like race, sexuality and gender instead of 'educating' kids on the subject. I am still very proud that neither of my children have ever asked me about skin colour, sexuality, gender or health / disability. I have brought them up to respect people, whoever they are.

If you are parenting well, and as Smores says, watch them develop, get involved, and support whatever changes they go through.

 

[Carolina Red]

I'd explain it to my 5 year old. I'd probably say something like some people have 2 mums or 2 dads instead of 1 mum and 1 dad. If my child asked why, i'd say something like because they want to live like that and it makes them happy. I'd say most people have 1 mum and 1 dad but some people don't. They still live like a family and love each other.

I don't trust the school to do that without shoving someone else agenda down my childs throat.

So it’s okay for 5 year olds to learn about it?

Also, what agenda?

 

[Grinner]

Great post.

It should (but often isn't I know) be a parents responsibility to ensure their children grow up with tolerance and respect of other people and the paths they all take through life and also be free to take whatever path they want (within reason and the confines of the law obviously). If this was done then schools wouldn't need to get involved slamming answers and explanations at children who are too young to even understand the question (or even that a question exists). I personally hate the thought of schools 'educating' my children in this stuff, it's my job.

I believe that schools should just normalise different issues like race, sexuality and gender instead of 'educating' kids on the subject. I am still very proud that neither of my children have ever asked me about skin colour, sexuality, gender or health / disability. I have brought them up to respect people, whoever they are.

If you are parenting well, and as Smores says, watch them develop, get involved, and support whatever changes they go through.

But what happens when the parents are as ill-informed on the subject as @Raees ?

 

[Volumiza]

My whole worry is the lack of communication, the clear fact that there are two lobbies pushing agendas here (one is a LGBQT lobby and one is a barely hidden homophobic lobby) and i'm not sure schools are going to make the right decisions out of fear of "offending" the lobbies. What the schools need to worry about is our children and their best interests.

There is just so much propaganda and politics surrounding this, as a parent it worries me a lot more than any of the content.

Precisely. I have no trust in the education system doing this very important life lesson with my children in the way I want. I want to do it my way and as a parent that should be my choice.

You have to let your children know that whatever they are or will become is ok and they will have your love and support. It's easy really and unfortunately a lot of parents will never understand this.

 

[Volumiza]

But what happens when the parents are as ill-informed on the subject as @Raees ?

Unfortunately there will always be a slice of society that struggles with these issues and even more sadly, their offspring will follow suit. But no one can say we haven't made great strides in society in terms of tolerance and acceptance so all we have to do is keep on the track we're on and hopefully, gradually the ill-informed will slowly become almost nil.

 

[Cascarino]

I'm saying liberalism has no morality or standard to hang it's hat on.Religious laws govern the lives of those in the religion and provides a moral framework for those individuals.

Not that either is perfect, but isn't better for society to re-evaluate our morals and what is right and wrong as our understanding of the world increases, rather than strictly following the morals deemed fit by society, only society from thousands of years ago.

Precisely. I have no trust in the education system doing this very important life lesson with my children in the way I want. I want to do it my way and as a parent that should be my choice.

You might want it your way but I'm pretty sure the gay couple down the street don't want Harry the Homophobe doing it his way.
I know plenty of homophobic parents. It's a good thing that their kids get at least a chance to hear the other side.

 

[Grinner]

Unfortunately there will always be a slice of society that struggles with these issues and even more sadly, their offspring will follow suit. But no one can say we haven't made great strides in society in terms of tolerance and acceptance so all we have to do is keep on the track we're on and hopefully, gradually the ill-informed will slowly become almost nil.

Is that what you would say to a kid being told they are an abomination by other kids? How comforting.

 

[Volumiza]

You might want it your way but I'm pretty sure the gay couple down the street don't want Harry the Homophobe doing it his way.
I know plenty of homophobic parents. It's a good thing that their kids get at least a chance to hear the other side.

All I'm saying is I would prefer schools to be more influential in normalising these issues instead of educating. That is just the best way in my view, then hopefully the more children of homophobic parents hear these things being normalised the more they will hopefully question theirs and their parents opinions. Just my opinion dude.

 

[Jippy]

Absolutely. Ultimately i won't be taking my kids out of class - i'd rather be involved and know what is being taught and when so i can back up that teaching and clear up any misconceptions my children might have.

My whole worry is the lack of communication, the clear fact that there are two lobbies pushing agendas here (one is a LGBQT lobby and one is a barely hidden homophobic lobby) and i'm not sure schools are going to make the right decisions out of fear of "offending" the lobbies. What the schools need to worry about is our children and their best interests.

There is just so much propaganda and politics surrounding this, as a parent it worries me a lot more than any of the content.

You'd hope the kids are just given the facts and they can make of it what they will, with help from their parents, but it obviously isn't that simple.

trying to navigate it all in terms of setting a curriculum is a nightmare though- how much prominence do you give to same sex relationships for example? No idea.

 

[Volumiza]

Is that what you would say to a kid being told they are an abomination by other kids? How comforting.

I'm not sure what you're getting at there Grinner but I think it is the adults in society that need educating more than the children.

 

[Ivor Ballokov]

Some may have, like Christianity to extent.

But as a general rule, religious rules provide a framework of objective morality.

Until the framework changes and they change with it.

The notion that without religion's rules to hold our hands paedophilia would be normalised is deeply offensive too.

 

[Carolina Red]

All I'm saying is I would prefer schools to be more influential in normalising these issues instead of educating

How do you expect schools to do the former without the latter?

 

[Grinner]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there Grinner but I think it is the adults in society that need educating more than the children.

Kids tend to be openly cruel, it's the adults that have to have it coaxed out of them.

 

[Carolina Red]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there Grinner but I think it is the adults in society that need educating more than the children.

Yeah, because their parents were homophobes and their schools didn’t educate them otherwise.

 

[Volumiza]

How do you expect schools to do the former without the latter?

Little things maybe, make sure stories don't automatically have a Mummy and Daddy, maybe a Mummy and Mummy. I don't know exactly CR, I guess just make it seem normal as I have with my two. It's a tricky one but I think formalising it into lesson is a bad idea.

 

[Volumiza]

Kids tend to be openly cruel, it's the adults that have to have it coaxed out of them.

And that will never change no matter what the issue is.

 

[Cascarino]

All I'm saying is I would prefer schools to be more influential in normalising these issues instead of educating. That is just the best way in my view, then hopefully the more children of homophobic parents hear these things being normalised the more they will hopefully question theirs and their parents opinions. Just my opinion dude.

If all parents were like you I'd have a much different stance. I do understand your concerns. It's not ideal and of course the best way of handling topics like these would be through the parents and family offering guidance and advice as you said you do with your children. I live in an area where pretty abhorrent views are common, and I know for a lot of the young children all they are being told by their families is how being gay is something to be deeply ashamed of. It could be that the only person they know and trust who can tell them otherwise is their teacher at school.

 

[Volumiza]

Yeah, because their parents were homophobes and their schools didn’t educate them otherwise.

maybe to a point but I think society teaches us far more these days on these subjects. On the street, TV, music etc. I mean, it's all pretty normal now isn't it?

 

[Zlatattack]

So it’s okay for 5 year olds to learn about it?

Also, what agenda?

It's okay if they HAVE to learn about it. If my kids have friends with gay parents and they notice and ask the question, i want to tell them in a way i deem appropriate. If they didn't ask, I'd rather they learn about it all in their early teens when their minds are more developed, when they're probably experiencing puberty etc and it's relevant for them to have that sort of information.

What Agenda? There are two lobbies at play right now. An anti gay lobby and a "everyone should be gay" lobby. They're both working hard to enforce their views and lifestyle choices on other people and more importantly on schools.

I'll give you an example. The school my cousins go to have switched their toilets to unisex toilets. They've done this so the toilets are non gender defined and anyone who doesn't confine to biological gender identities can go to the toilet without feeling labelled. Now you have a situation where some girls are not using the toilets at school because they feel uncomfortable sharing toilets with boys. I've seen these toilets. They don't have a door to the entrance, they do have stalls with doors, the stalls are out of sight by the sinks and hand dryers aren't. The headteacher also happens to be gay. That kind of stupid decision is clearly driven by a chip on someones shoulder.

The same school with the same headteacher have made some really great moves to tackle homophobia. In the UK kids routinely call each other gay as an insult, this school gives detention to anyone who uses the word gay as an insult, even between friends.

On the other side of things i'm in a whatsapp parents group about RSE and it's clear as day that some of the people in that group are outright homophobes. I am a Muslim and I consider homosexuality to be a sin, but i'll never let that impact how I treat a gay person. There are some people on the group who don't share that basic level of courtesy towards other humans, and they're sharing all sorts of content from places like the Daily Mail, whipping up hysteria.

For example someone shared a screenshot (no url, alarm bells ringing already) about different sexual practices, including oral sex, rimjobs etc and said this was part of the RSE curriculum. It might be for 16 year olds, it won't be for 6 year old - i'm pretty sure of that, but the person who shared it, didn't provide any detail - they're trying to present it all as some sort of hedonistic movement to sexualise their kids. Another example of an Agenda, albiet on the opposite end of the spectrum.

=================

Fact of the matter is, you might have a different understanding of what is appropriate and when - good for you. You do what suits for your kids, and i'll do what suits me for mine.

 

[Rado_N]

Calling homophobia wrong is racist and a sign of white privilege is my new favourite argument ever made on the Caf.

 

[RussellWilson]

Until the framework changes and they change with it.

The notion that without religion's rules to hold our hands paedophilia would be normalised is deeply offensive too.

I didn't say that, I said under liberalism there is nothing to stop it being normalised. By all means show me how liberalism can limit it if society accepts it? There is already a movement to decriminalize paedophilia for non acting paedophiles. Go Google it.

 

[Volumiza]

I live in an area where pretty abhorrent views are common, and I know for a lot of the young children all they are being told by their families is how being gay is something to be deeply ashamed of. It could be that the only person they know and trust who can tell them otherwise is their teacher at school.

And that's the difficult part Cascarino yeah. But i think the more different people and the way they live their lives we see on the street, TV and media in general the better and over time these deep seated views will hopefully change. But you have to ask, would school lessons change the views of these people anyway?

 

[Carolina Red]

Little things maybe, make sure stories don't automatically have a Mummy and Daddy, maybe a Mummy and Mummy. I don't know exactly CR, I guess just make it seem normal as I have with my two. It's a tricky one but I think formalising it into lesson is a bad idea.

And when the story has 2 same sex parents, and kids ask why, then what? Then you have to answer the question... and that’s called educating.

 

[Volumiza]

There are two lobbies at play right now. An anti gay lobby and a "everyone should be gay" lobby. They're both working hard to enforce their views and lifestyle choices on other people and more importantly on schools.

I'm not sure that is quite right dude, I don't see that one.