LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
I don't know if it's a problem. I'm not sure in this case. However for me it's between "How would this shape their environment" vs "anything they see or learn doesn't matter because a gay dude knows he's gay automatically and a straight person knows they are, always".
Not discussing normal everyday parts of life can only end badly in shame, confusion and recriminations.

As parents are often rubbish at duscussing anything sexual with their kids, especially "difficult" subjects school is the perfect place for such things.
 

shamans

Thinks you can get an STD from flirting.
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
18,226
Location
Constantly at the STD clinic.
Would that be even considered attraction? Btw I'm not arguing anything here before I get piled on for saying children before puberty are too young to have sexual thoughts, I can see how people are aggressive in this thread and I want none of that.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't know who you are but if I highly suggest you go for a walk and grow some braincells before you embarrass yourself like this again. :lol:

Thought I'd keep the thread theme alive!! : )
 

shamans

Thinks you can get an STD from flirting.
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
18,226
Location
Constantly at the STD clinic.
Not discussing normal everyday parts of life can only end badly in shame, confusion and recriminations.

As parents are often rubbish at duscussing anything sexual with their kids, especially "difficult" subjects school is the perfect place for such things.
I don't know if perfect is the right word given how crap a lot of teachers are ...

but anyway, I would be more comfortable if it was at an older age. An age where children have already sort of gone through these thoughts.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
Would that be even considered attraction? Btw I'm not arguing anything here before I get piled on for saying children before puberty are too young to have sexual thoughts, I can see how people are aggressive in this thread and I want none of that.
I can't be certain as you were there and I wasn't but it isn't a controversial suggestion that children have an awarenwss of sexyality and gender identity even if they can't articulate it or even conciously think about it. I'd guess those who don't feel part of the mainstream, those who would be particularly helped by knowing there is a wide range of normal, would notice their sexuality/gender identity more.

And I didn't "pile in". I expressed suprise at the opinion.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
I don't know if perfect is the right word given how crap a lot of teachers are ...

but anyway, I would be more comfortable if it was at an older age. An age where children have already sort of gone through these thoughts.
That is too late. Those who need this information will already be feeling unnecesary shame and confusion.
 

syrian_scholes

Honorary Straw Hat
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
14,000
Location
Houston
I can't be certain as you were there and I wasn't but it isn't a controversial suggestion that children have an awarenwss of sexyality and gender identity even if they can't articulate it or even conciously think about it. I'd guess those who don't feel part of the mainstream, those who would be particularly helped by knowing there is a wide range of normal, would notice their sexuality/gender identity more.

And I didn't "pile in". I expressed suprise at the opinion.
What's so surprising? Physiologically speaking, boys before puberty have very low levels of testosterone so they have no sexual drive.
 

shamans

Thinks you can get an STD from flirting.
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
18,226
Location
Constantly at the STD clinic.
That is too late. Those who need this information will already be feeling unnecesary shame and confusion.
Children aren't alone. When I started getting such thoughts most of my friends were too and we would talk about who we liked. I didn't have severe guilt since I knew others had same thoughts.
 

RussellWilson

2020 NFC Fantasy League winner
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
1,306
As a side question would everyone in this thread also be happy for their 4/5 year old to be taught that they could become a boy or girl depending on how they felt?
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,181
As a side question would everyone in this thread also be happy for their 4/5 year old to be taught that they could become a boy or girl depending on how they felt?
Sure, why not? I think it's far too early for kids to make definitive decisions but no reason they shouldn't be aware it's a thing.
 

Kag

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
18,875
Location
United Kingdom
I don't know if perfect is the right word given how crap a lot of teachers are ...

but anyway, I would be more comfortable if it was at an older age. An age where children have already sort of gone through these thoughts.
When was the last time you observed a lesson and assessed it against the teaching standards? Genuinely curious.
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,908
Supports
Barcelona
The most important question here that @esmufc07 asked on the first page and no on, specially @Raees and @shamans didn't ask is

OK, let's say if people can be brainwashed into being gay, what is wrong with that?
So again, if you are so tolerant with being gay and you don't have a problem with it. If there is a spectrum as @shamans says and this spectrum it could go gay. What would be the problem that the education would "trick" a kid go gay even if he/she was going to be straight? what would matter if he/she would find love anyway and be happy with his/her choice (let suppose it is a choice also)? because if he/she would not be happy, he/she would not be brainwashed and eventually go to his/her "right" inside being.

So in short, how you would answer the question of @esmufc07 ?
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
I get it, i've a daughter too (she's only one so its a few years down the track for me), and I totally understand the wish to protect them for as long as possible but I think there's a fine line between protecting them and, what I'd see as throwing them to the wolves, leaving them confused or ill informed about stuff they are exposed to.

And they ARE exposed to it. Only today they were talking about this stuff on the radio and there was a story of a 14 year old girl sending nudes to half the boys in her year.

I'm not saying we should be sitting 8 year olds down and opening up pornhub but I do think teaching the basics of relationships, love is a good idea.

Starting to teach them at second level is too late, I think. By the time I was in my early teens I thought I knew it all already.
Kids don't think it is a big deal unless parents make it a big deal.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
The most important question here that @esmufc07 asked on the first page and no on, specially @Raees and @shamans didn't ask is



So again, if you are so tolerant with being gay and you don't have a problem with it. If there is a spectrum as @shamans says and this spectrum it could go gay. What would be the problem that the education would "trick" a kid go gay even if he/she was going to be straight? what would matter if he/she would find love anyway and be happy with his/her choice (let suppose it is a choice also)? because if he/she would not be happy, he/she would not be brainwashed and eventually go to his/her "right" inside being.

So in short, how you would answer the question of @esmufc07 ?
Balanced evidence based information isn't brainwashing.

And the problem with single view, usually evidence free, brainwashing isn't which direction it pushes someone in but the favt they are being manipulated rather than being broadly informed.

These lessons are the later.
 

RussellWilson

2020 NFC Fantasy League winner
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
1,306
Sure, why not? I think it's far too early for kids to make definitive decisions but no reason they shouldn't be aware it's a thing.
And so liberalism continues down a rabbit hole of no objective mortality to god knows where.
 

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,882
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
And so liberalism continues down a rabbit hole of no objective mortality to god knows where.
What is more damaging to a child, being told people can sometimes be born into the wrong bodies, or telling children (as religious schools and churches do) that if you commit sin or any other number of things that you are potentially facing a lifetime of hell and torture?
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,908
Supports
Barcelona
Balanced evidence based information isn't brainwashing.

And the problem with single view, usually evidence free, brainwashing isn't which direction it pushes someone in but the favt they are being manipulated rather than being broadly informed.

These lessons are the later.
My believe is that you can't be brainswashed to be gay. But that is irrelevant with the question and irrelevant on what any education at any age can accomplish or not

The question is what it would matter if anything in the world (in this case education at early stage) would "turn" you gay (in a society that shouldn't matter you gender and sexual orientation)?
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
My believe is that you can't be brainswashed to be gay. But that is irrelevant with the question and irrelevant on what any education at any age can accomplish or not

The question is what it would matter if anything in the world (in this case education at early stage) would "turn" you gay (in a society that shouldn't matter you gender and sexual orientation)?
The gay wouldn't matter specifically. The turning anyone to or from any sexual orientation or identity by brainwashing does.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
As a side question would everyone in this thread also be happy for their 4/5 year old to be taught that they could become a boy or girl depending on how they felt?
Of course. Why not?

I did in fact. Came in quite useful when his cousin transitioned.

Since his friend had 2 mums he knew about that very young with zero issue. His mate wasn't turned gay either suprise suprise.
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,908
Supports
Barcelona
The gay wouldn't matter specifically. The turning anyone to or from any sexual orientation or identity by brainwashing does.
why if they would be equally happy?
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
25,530
As a side question would everyone in this thread also be happy for their 4/5 year old to be taught that they could become a boy or girl depending on how they felt?
I wouldn't purely because a child going through their own mental development at this stage is complicated enough without throwing in the grenade of what if you're actually a boy/girl. It's just ridiculous to throw in an adults morality and views on equalities onto a kid that age. Just let them develop and support them.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
why if they would be equally happy?
Gay, straight or anything else should be something to be happy about. Brainwashing someone to be something they aren't is incredibly unlikely to cause happiness.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,021
Location
Centreback
I wouldn't purely because a child going through their own mental development at this stage is complicated enough without throwing in the grenade of what if you're actually a boy/girl. It's just ridiculous to throw in an adults morality and views on equalities onto a kid that age. Just let them develop and support them.
What grenade? And what has being transgender got to do with morality? Kids will only give a shit if they are trained to do so by adults and society.
 

Zarlak

my face causes global warming
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
45,407
Location
Truth like rain don't give a feck who it falls on.
As a side question would everyone in this thread also be happy for their 4/5 year old to be taught that they could become a boy or girl depending on how they felt?
Yes I would like my children to grow up knowing the truth, not having things hidden from them and running the possibility of them feeling ashamed of who they are because ignorant parents stuck in the last decade want to maintain the status quo that's responsible for a not insignificant portion of teenage suicides. As if your personal thoughts and opinions have any bearing on their lives and how they feel.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
Unfortunately people will hide their homophobia behind all sorts of things. This is just another example.
Just like people hide their racism and belief of cultural superiority.
 

Redlambs

Creator of the Caftards comics
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
42,240
Location
Officially the best poker player on RAWK.
After reading this a bit last night, I asked both my boys (8 & 10) if they knew what LGBT and transgender meant out of interest. Both had a scary amount of knowledge.

So education on it is a big thumbs up from me. I'm not concerned at all, in fact I'd take it over R.E all day long.

Also considering I'm going through a tough time right now with my eldest and his mental wellbeing, I think the more you open them up to the truths of the world and showing them it's ok to feel how you do and that you should be comfortable in your own skin, the better society will become in the long term.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
The most important question here that @esmufc07 asked on the first page and no on, specially @Raees and @shamans didn't ask is



So again, if you are so tolerant with being gay and you don't have a problem with it. If there is a spectrum as @shamans says and this spectrum it could go gay. What would be the problem that the education would "trick" a kid go gay even if he/she was going to be straight? what would matter if he/she would find love anyway and be happy with his/her choice (let suppose it is a choice also)? because if he/she would not be happy, he/she would not be brainwashed and eventually go to his/her "right" inside being.

So in short, how you would answer the question of @esmufc07 ?
Final point on this topic. Nothing wrong from a moral or romantic perspective, but there are some negatives and downsides they will endure such as not being able to naturally conceive children with the one they love or higher risk of HIV (for a male).

Now if by the time they hit puberty they have struggled with a particular gender identity and tested it as far as it can and definitely want to change gender or date someone of the game gender - then fair play and fully in support of that choice. They clearly have gone through the range of emotions and reached the conclusion that they are gay etc. Had a friend who came out and despite him being relieved he could finally form a romantic relationship after a while the whole family aspect to it and even the sexual began to depress him.. he clearly had feelings for guys but the thought of not being able to properly have a family from a biological standpoint was a issue for him despite there being alternatives such as surrogacy and adoption. Likewise the thought of never really being able to enjoy unprotected sex without in the back of his mind having the higher susceptibility to STD also worried him.

I just don’t think we should interfere with that process too early as at the moment scientifically we can’t really 100% determine what impacts an individuals sexuality. Nor do I agree with leaving it to parents altogether and not teaching kids about LGBT at all. All I’m asking for is some compromise between different cultures and values. At the moment there are two schools of extreme thought .. your religious zealots who are totally against LGBT teaching in any form and at any age and the super liberal western imperialists like in this thread who are happy for their kids to cross dress aged
3 and watch porn at 7 because they’ll come across it anyway.
 

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,882
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
Final point on this topic. Nothing wrong from a moral or romantic perspective, but there are some negatives and downsides they will endure such as not being able to naturally conceive children with the one they love or higher risk of HIV (for a male).

Now if by the time they hit puberty they have struggled with a particular gender identity and tested it as far as it can and definitely want to change gender or date someone of the game gender - then fair play and fully in support of that choice. They clearly have gone through the range of emotions and reached the conclusion that they are gay etc. Had a friend who came out and despite him being relieved he could finally form a romantic relationship after a while the whole family aspect to it and even the sexual began to depress him.. he clearly had feelings for guys but the thought of not being able to properly have a family from a biological standpoint was a issue for him despite there being alternatives such as surrogacy and adoption. Likewise the thought of never really being able to enjoy unprotected sex without in the back of his mind having the higher susceptibility to STD also worried him.

I just don’t think we should interfere with that process too early as at the moment scientifically we can’t really 100% determine what impacts an individuals sexuality. Nor do I agree with leaving it to parents altogether and not teaching kids about LGBT at all. All I’m asking for is some compromise between different cultures and values. At the moment there are two schools of extreme thought .. your religious zealots who are totally against LGBT teaching in any form and at any age and the super liberal western imperialists like in this thread who are happy for their kids to cross dress aged
3 and watch porn at 7 because they’ll come across it anyway
.
Literally nobody has said that.

But better to be ‘super liberal’ than make homosexuality illegal and punishable by death in many Muslim majority countries.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
Literally nobody has said that.

But better to be ‘super liberal’ than make homosexuality illegal and punishable by death in many Muslim majority countries.
Like I said that is your racial superiority complex coming through. You think it’s ‘better’ - personally speaking I think both are wrong and manipulative. I wouldn’t want either teaching my child as they’re both preaching and pushing agendas.
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,635
Location
Sydney
Aside from the fact it is the right thing to do, they will find out about it anyway. Better to give them factual information instead of piecing bits and pieces together they hear on tv, the internet or from mates.
 

KM

I’m afraid I just blue myself
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
49,744
Like I said that is your racial superiority complex coming through. You think it’s ‘better’ - personally speaking I think both are wrong and manipulative. I wouldn’t want either teaching my child as they’re both preaching and pushing agendas.
It's shameful that you think that being a "super liberal" is anyway comparable to stonings of homosexuals in many of the countries.
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
24,602
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
Like I said that is your racial superiority complex coming through. You think it’s ‘better’ - personally speaking I think both are wrong and manipulative. I wouldn’t want either teaching my child as they’re both preaching and pushing agendas.
I think banning homosexuality, even punishing people for it, is objectively worse than being very liberal about it. If that means I have a superiority complex, I'd put it on my resume and brag about it.
 

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,882
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
Like I said that is your racial superiority complex coming through. You think it’s ‘better’ - personally speaking I think both are wrong and manipulative. I wouldn’t want either teaching my child as they’re both preaching and pushing agendas.
If it’s a superiority complex to believe that gay people shouldn’t be put to death by the state for being gay then so be it.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
It's shameful that you think that being a "super liberal" is anyway comparable to stonings of homosexuals in many of the countries.
Well yes in the overall context of course being liberal is better but we are purely discussing the education of young children only.

We have all of our lives post puberty to stress about relationships, being a young child is the only phase where you don’t necessarily have to fret about who you like and don’t like. Yes some still do but like I said, it’s unnecessary at a young age to impose that on them.

Also what is wrong about them piecing info together at their own pace as long as by age of 11 they’re fully informed and school can take over and fill the gaps then.
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,635
Location
Sydney
Final point on this topic. Nothing wrong from a moral or romantic perspective, but there are some negatives and downsides they will endure such as not being able to naturally conceive children with the one they love or higher risk of HIV (for a male).

Now if by the time they hit puberty they have struggled with a particular gender identity and tested it as far as it can and definitely want to change gender or date someone of the game gender - then fair play and fully in support of that choice. They clearly have gone through the range of emotions and reached the conclusion that they are gay etc. Had a friend who came out and despite him being relieved he could finally form a romantic relationship after a while the whole family aspect to it and even the sexual began to depress him.. he clearly had feelings for guys but the thought of not being able to properly have a family from a biological standpoint was a issue for him despite there being alternatives such as surrogacy and adoption. Likewise the thought of never really being able to enjoy unprotected sex without in the back of his mind having the higher susceptibility to STD also worried him.

I just don’t think we should interfere with that process too early as at the moment scientifically we can’t really 100% determine what impacts an individuals sexuality. Nor do I agree with leaving it to parents altogether and not teaching kids about LGBT at all. All I’m asking for is some compromise between different cultures and values. At the moment there are two schools of extreme thought .. your religious zealots who are totally against LGBT teaching in any form and at any age and the super liberal western imperialists like in this thread who are happy for their kids to cross dress aged
3 and watch porn at 7 because they’ll come across it anyway.
If you're going to use the extremes as examples at least do it fairly. On the one side it would be people who want homosexuality to be illegal, or worse.