LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

[Carolina Red]

maybe to a point but I think society teaches us far more these days on these subjects. On the street, TV, music etc. I mean, it's all pretty normal now isn't it?

I’m talking about the parents you said needed educating.

 

[Volumiza]

And when the story has 2 same sex parents, and kids ask why, then what? Then you have to answer the question... and that’s called educating.

And only a fool would make that a difficult question to answer. Because they love each other.

 

[Raees]

Calling homophobia wrong is racist and a sign of white privilege is my new favourite argument ever made on the Caf.

Since when did I advocate homophobia? I recall arguing these lessons should be taught in school just not as early as some are arguing in this thread. Think you need to read up on the definition of homophobe.

 

[Volumiza]

I’m talking about the parents you said needed educating.

And why is the answer for the parents different to the kids? Society has made big strides in this respect and will no doubt continue to do so, we see it normalised everywhere now and that is a good thing.

 

[Carolina Red]

It's okay if they HAVE to learn about it.

Gay people exist, so they do HAVE to learn about it.

There are two lobbies at play right now. An anti gay lobby and a "everyone should be gay" lobby.

One of those is real, the other isn’t.

I can’t really take the rest of your post seriously when you’ve got stuff like that in it.

 

[Synco]

What Agenda? There are two lobbies at play right now. An anti gay lobby and a "everyone should be gay" lobby. They're both working hard to enforce their views and lifestyle choices on other people and more importantly on schools.

What is that "everyone should be gay" lobby, could you give examples? And examples for how they supposedly lobby to enforce homosexual "lifestyle choices" on others?

 

[Tarrou]

Calling homophobia wrong is racist and a sign of white privilege is my new favourite argument ever made on the Caf.

Ain’t nothing too it, white privilege made me do it

 

[Ivor Ballokov]

I didn't say that, I said under liberalism there is nothing to stop it being normalised. By all means show me how liberalism can limit it if society accepts it? There is already a movement to decriminalize paedophilia for non acting paedophiles. Go Google it.

Decriminalisation and accepting morally are totally different things. By decriminalising paedophilia for non acting paedophiles it allows them to seek treatment without the threat of persecution, the idea being that it would stop crimes occurring rather than your disingenuous claim that it's normalising it.

'Liberalism' is at least trying to sort some of the issues that religion have had millennia to sort and failed miserably.

 

[Grinner]

I thought paedophilia was only illegal if you did something physically. Just being one isn't illegal, surely?

 

[Rado_N]

Since when did I advocate homophobia? I recall arguing these lessons should be taught in school just not as early as some are arguing in this thread. Think you need to read up on the definition of homophobe.

You think kids might be 'turned' gay by being made aware homosexuality exists ffs

 

[Carolina Red]

And only a fool would make that a difficult question to answer. Because they love each other.

That’s educating.

And why is the answer for the parents different to the kids? Society has made big strides in this respect and will no doubt continue to do so, we see it normalised everywhere now and that is a good thing.

I didn’t say that. You said schools should normalize but not educate. That’s impossible. I said both kids and adults need educating so that it can be normalized.

 

[Zlatattack]

What is that "everyone should be gay" lobby, could you give examples? And examples for how they supposedly lobby to enforce homosexual "lifestyle choices" on others?

I've already given you examples in my previous post you ignored. The school that has unisex toilets, making plenty of male and female uncomfortable, just so that it doesn't make any students who don't identify as male or female uncomfortable. That was the work of a LGBQT lobby group.

 

[Raees]

You think kids might be 'turned' gay by being made aware homosexuality exists ffs

How’s that homophobic though? We aren’t scientific experts on how kids become gay etc it’s all still up for debate and recently scientists said there isn’t really a gay gene which would suggest environmental factors play a part. That isn’t to say it isn’t natural, just that there might be a process for some en route to becoming gay rather than coming out of the womb in a predetermined manner.

 

[Carolina Red]

I've already given you examples in my previous post you ignored. The school that has unisex toilets, making plenty of male and female uncomfortable, just so that it doesn't make any students who don't identify as male or female uncomfortable. That was the work of a LGBQT lobby group.

Unisex bathrooms tell everyone to be gay?

 

[Zlatattack]

Gay people exist, so they do HAVE to learn about it.

One of those is real, the other isn’t.

I can’t really take the rest of your post seriously when you’ve got stuff like that in it.

Just because you haven't come across them, doesn't make them fake.

My children HAVE to learn about it, when I consider it appropriate, not when some headteacher terrified of being accused of being homophobic is brow beaten into it by pushy LGBQT interest groups.

I hate the Daily Mail, but just have a read of these stories. No smoke without fire.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...er-teacher-makes-shocking-claim-autistic.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hool-teacher-wrongly-assumed-transgender.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-reprimanded-teacher-saying-two-genders.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-leaked-UK-equality-watchdog-plan-shows.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...17-insisted-two-genders-suspended-school.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...against-transgender-teaching-sons-school.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ear-old-pupils-sex-change-secret-parents.html

All this is stupidity is driven by a fear of being labelled homophobic - just like the race card is played by some people. We now have the homophobe card.

 

[RussellWilson]

Decriminalisation and accepting morally are totally different things. By decriminalising paedophilia for non acting paedophiles it allows them to seek treatment without the threat of persecution, the idea being that it would stop crimes occurring rather than your disingenuous claim that it's normalising it.

'Liberalism' is at least trying to sort some of the issues that religion have had millennia to sort and failed miserably.

Everything happens in gradual steps, this is the first step. Regardless, it was example that liberalism sets no boundaries.

 

[Volumiza]

That’s educating.

I didn’t say that. You said schools should normalize but not educate. That’s impossible. I said both kids and adults need educating so that it can be normalized.

Ok, I'm not saying normalising isn't educating CR, of course it is. The way I see life is that every day is a school day. I just mean that I would prefer to see that than having specific syllabus in the curriculum that's all and leave the real social education to me as a parent.

 

[Tarrou]

How’s that homophobic though? We aren’t scientific experts on how kids become gay etc it’s all still up for debate and recently scientists said there isn’t really a gay gene which would suggest environmental factors play a part. That isn’t to say it isn’t natural, just that there might be a process for some en route to becoming gay rather than coming out of the womb in a predetermined manner.

I think the study you are referring to just said there isn't one 'gay gene', but rather, homosexuality is influenced by a multitude of genetic variants

 

[Zlatattack]

Unisex bathrooms tell everyone to be gay?

They force some girls and boys not to use the bathroom at school because they feel uncomfortable sharing with people of the opposite gender. You've got no leg to stand on and have no resorted to blatent trolling. You're last two posts have been poor jobs at trolling; i should know.

 

[SilentWitness]

They force some girls and boys not to use the bathroom at school because they feel uncomfortable sharing with people of the opposite gender. You've got no leg to stand on and have no resorted to blatent trolling. You're last two posts have been poor jobs at trolling; i should know.

No. You said there is an everyone should be gay camp and used mixed gender bathrooms to back that point up which is complete shite.

If there are no single gender bathrooms at that school and there was no transition period from single gender bathrooms to purely mixed gender bathrooms then that is the fault of the school, not LGBT groups.

 

[Carolina Red]

They force some girls and boys not to use the bathroom at school because they feel uncomfortable sharing with people of the opposite gender. You've got no leg to stand on and have no resorted to blatent trolling. You're last two posts have been poor jobs at trolling; i should know.

I can’t really say anything better than what @SilentWitness just said.

 

[Zlatattack]

Funny that this argument about innocence and the like never applies with Religion. Telling a child that some people have two dads is apparently potentially harmful to the child, but telling children if they don't follow the will of a mythical figure in the sky they'll be sent to an eternity of hell and torture is just fine.

Just to pick up on this, i have the same criticism about how Islam was taught to me. For years it was all fire and brimstone as a kids and it was irrelevant, it was motions, it was fear of upsetting God. It drew me away from religion.

At university was the first time i had an academic approach to Islam, i re-learnt religion based on values, rather than just this heaven/hell bottom line.

I have never mentioned death, heaven, hell to my kids unless they've asked. I have taught them Islam through the prism of right and wrong, how your decisions benefit you or can harm others. The concept of haqooq ul ibad is central to the approach i've taken. Haqooq Ul Ibaad is the duty we owe to humanity and there are rights of every soul on another. They know of heaven and hell, of death (we've faced death in the family), they know they pray because God expects it of you, but i don't say "you'll go to hell if you don't pray" or "you'll go to heaven if you do pray".

 

[Synco]

I've already given you examples in my previous post you ignored. The school that has unisex toilets, making plenty of male and female uncomfortable, just so that it doesn't make any students who don't identify as male or female uncomfortable. That was the work of a LGBQT lobby group.

Well, if that's really the case, I'd be opposed to it as well. I just never heard of something like that in schools, is it really part of a common development beyond singular instances in the UK?

See, what I'm not buying is that there's an "everyone should be gay" lobby significant enough to warrant the notion of a culture war between anti-gay and "pro-gay" extremists.

 

[esmufc07]

Just to pick up on this, i have the same criticism about how Islam was taught to me. For years it was all fire and brimstone as a kids and it was irrelevant, it was motions, it was fear of upsetting God. It drew me away from religion.

At university was the first time i had an academic approach to Islam, i re-learnt religion based on values, rather than just this heaven/hell bottom line.

I have never mentioned death, heaven, hell to my kids unless they've asked. I have taught them Islam through the prism of right and wrong, how your decisions benefit you or can harm others. The concept of haqooq ul ibad is central to the approach i've taken. Haqooq Ul Ibaad is the duty we owe to humanity and there are rights of every soul on another. They know of heaven and hell, of death (we've faced death in the family), they know they pray because God expects it of you, but i don't say "you'll go to hell if you don't pray" or "you'll go to heaven if you do pray".

You may not say it but do you believe your children will go to hell if they do not follow the teachings of Islam? (Curious question, I'm no expert on the Quran or Islamic teachings, though we are probably now diverging from the topic at hand!)

 

[Zlatattack]

Well, if that's really the case, I'd be opposed to it as well. I just never heard of something like that in schools, is it really part of a common development beyond singular instances in the UK?

See, what I'm not buying is that there's an "everyone should be gay" lobby significant enough to warrant the notion of a culture war between anti-gay and "pro-gay" extremists.

Hands up, i was wrong to term it as a "everyone should be gay" lobby, but there is certainly is a LGBQT lobby who are pushing things like teaching about LGBQT identity from an early age, the unigender toilets etc, and there is a feeling amongst people that if you don't go with it, you'll be accused of being homophobic.

It's right here in this very thread. There are people who are just waiting to say it, hoping to find the right trigger to justify to themselves why their views are right and my views are wrong.

 

[Zlatattack]

You may not say it but do you believe your children will go to hell if they do not follow the teachings of Islam? (Curious question, I'm no expert on the Quran or Islamic teachings, though we are probably now diverging from the topic at hand!)

As children - no. As adults, once you know what the teachings are and you accept them as true, I believe if you reject them or don't follow them correctly, and your wrong deeds outweigh your right deeds at some point you run the risk of going to hell. I have been taught that we cannot know that with certainty and that Gods mercy is infinite. As a Muslim you can have hope that any duty you have upon Allah which you have neglected could be forgiven by Allah, but any duty you have upon Allah's creation, which you neglect - only that person forgive you that sin.

 

[esmufc07]

As children - no. As adults, once you know what the teachings are and you accept them as true, I believe if you reject them or don't follow them correctly, and your wrong deeds outweigh your right deeds at some point you run the risk of going to hell. I have been taught that we cannot know that with certainty and that Gods mercy is infinite. As a Muslim you can have hope that any duty you have upon Allah which you have neglected could be forgiven by Allah, but any duty you have upon Allah's creation, which you neglect - only that person forgive you that sin.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Redlambs]

If you have a fear about your kids being brainwashed by what they learn in school, just know this...

You are 10000% out of touch with what kids actually learn these days.


School is but one of the ridiculous amount of information access points they have. You cannot and will not control what they learn, and you have no say in it. You need to deal with that. The best you can do is to educate yourself then educate them. Whether you like it or not, you deal with it for their sake.


Btw telling them they'll go to hell (or equivalent) for questioning their surroundings is brainwashing. It's control. And you can justify your upbringing however you want, but if you do that to your own children, if you try to force them to believe what you do, then you are wrong. You are so wrong.

 

[Rudie]

I think a lot of people are confused between being gay and being transgender, sticking a dress on doesn't make someone gay nor does it turn someone into being gay. Challenging gender stereotypes and gender neutral toilets doesn't turn kids gay. Being gay is as natural as being straight. Challenging social constructs such as public toilets for each gender is perfectly fine to do, how many of us have gender neutral toilets at home? Most likely all. You won't be called homophobic for not wanting gender neutral toilets, you may be called trans phobic because being transgender is such a broad and umbrella term that it encompasses everyone.

This is where discussion best fits. Being transgender under the equality act is a lot more nuanced and specific than its use commonly. Very few people understand that definition.

Also, point me to a part in the bible where it says Men can't wear makeup for instance. Wearing makeup doesn't make someone gay. All this macho bullcrap is just as confusing to kids as teaching acceptance and openness and is driven by control.

 

[Synco]

Hands up, i was wrong to term it as a "everyone should be gay" lobby, but there is certainly is a LGBQT lobby who are pushing things like teaching about LGBQT identity from an early age, the unigender toilets etc, and there is a feeling amongst people that if you don't go with it, you'll be accused of being homophobic.

It's right here in this very thread. There are people who are just waiting to say it, hoping to find the right trigger to justify to themselves why their views are right and my views are wrong.

Treating gay relationships and as normal is the absolute right thing to do: first as part of general education on life, later as part of sex education. On gender-neutral toilets: as a third option there's nothing wrong with it imo, and, honestly, I haven't encountered mandatory unigender restrooms in any public place so far. It's always been Ladies & Gentlemen.

Edit: Although I see the discussion has now mainly shifted to alternative gender identities - but it all seems a bit wobbly with regard to terminology.

 

[Tarrou]

I don't see the issue with gender neutral toilets, you have complete privacy in the stall. Is it really too much for people to share the wash basin area with... **shock horror** members of the opposite sex?

 

[SilentWitness]

I think a lot of people are confused between being gay and being transgender, sticking a dress on doesn't make someone gay nor does it turn someone into being gay.

Nor does it make you transgender.

 

[Volumiza]

I don't see the issue with gender neutral toilets, you have complete privacy in the stall. Is it really too much for people to share the wash basin area with... **shock horror** members of the opposite sex?

As a parent of a 12 year old daughter I do. I don't like the idea of her being in a closed off communal area like that if there were a group of boys present. Nothing to do with anything other than potential intimidation or worse.

 

[Redlambs]

As a parent of a 12 year old daughter I do. I don't like the idea of her being in a closed off communal area like that if there were a group of boys present. Nothing to do with anything other than potential intimidation or worse.

I kind of get it.

But you are in for a world of hurt.

 

[Tarrou]

As a parent of a 12 year old daughter I do. I don't like the idea of her being in a closed off communal area like that if there were a group of boys present. Nothing to do with anything other than potential intimidation or worse.

Fair enough

 

[KirkDuyt]

If you have a fear about your kids being brainwashed by what they learn in school, just know this...

You are 10000% out of touch with what kids actually learn these days.


School is but one of the ridiculous amount of information access points they have. You cannot and will not control what they learn, and you have no say in it. You need to deal with that. The best you can do is to educate yourself then educate them. Whether you like it or not, you deal with it for their sake.


Btw telling them they'll go to hell (or equivalent) for questioning their surroundings is brainwashing. It's control. And you can justify your upbringing however you want, but if you do that to your own children, if you try to force them to believe what you do, then you are wrong. You are so wrong.

We have a winner.

 

[Moiraine]

If she ends up lesbian as a result of becoming confused by being bombarded by these messages before she was old enough to discover her own sexual preferences - I think that is a shame quite frankly. Likewise if she was secretly a lesbian but because I brainwash her that all homosexuality is wrong and she stays in the closet out of fear all her life.

I think messing with kids and telling them you can cross dress, you can have sex with people of the same gender etc before they have had the chance to naturally develop their sexual preference and orientation is wrong.

If I eventually end up with a kid whose homosexual so be it but I’d rather they did so naturally rather than being brainwashed from a young age.

Some of the reactions to this post are so worrying, looks like those who oppose want to bully their way to assert their own philosophy.

 

[KirkDuyt]

If I were a girl I'd object to the gender neutral bathrooms by the way. But only because I know poor aim we man have when it comes to taking a leak.

 

[Raees]

I think the study you are referring to just said there isn't one 'gay gene', but rather, homosexuality is influenced by a multitude of genetic variants

It also stated genetics account for 25% of same sex behaviour. So environmental factors currently would account for 75% of the influence behind it. Again this is current research so this might change in the future. Bottom line being that at a very young age their sexuality is likely to not be set in stone despite some genes within them potentially pushing them towards one orientation over another.

 

[Volumiza]

I kind of get it.

But you are in for a world of hurt.

Of course I am. I just know what kids are like at that age and times are very different now. Nothing to do with being closed minded about anything.