Liam Delap | £30m release clause?

VP89 said:
We would be a top half side. And even if we weren't we'd still be levels higher in quality and service than Ipswich were so yes it's a very moot point.

I know what you said to try to discredit him. In your own words without twisting anything, you suggested 1. Penalties materially affect the stats, and 2. We are also close to relegation.

It shows you don't really watch him from point 1. And its clear you there's no relevance from point 2. Since we more than likely won't be close to relegation in the season he were to join.
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Your whole first paragraph is pure conjecture. And arguing we’ll be better next season because of a preseason with the same manager who’s already been in the job for over six months is just blind hope. Also the nonsense about squad quality is irrelevant when the manager can’t get a tune out of the players.

I’m going to simplify this for you so there’s nothing to argue because both of the original points I made are true which were 1) Delap wouldn’t be on penos for us which would negatively affect his stats if he were to join and 2) we are just above the relegation zone ourselves. Both factual and beyond dispute.

Being that the trend over the past few seasons has been down down down I find it amazing that you think we should be ruled out of a relegation scrap next season. If I were a betting man I would certainly be more willing to put money on us being in and around the bottom four than the top four. But the reality is that currently we are 16th and deserve to be there.
 
Scholsey2004 said:
You're presuming we won't be in a similar place next season but we've not currently got any real reason to believe that's the case. The same manager, the same team that can't consistently score goals and is on a negative goal difference. We've been poor at integrating new attackers for a long time so. You might need to temper your expectations somewhat as any improvement is likely to be incremental. There's one team between us and the drop zone, and on goal difference they're a better side than us and unlucky to be there
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Is it a presumption? We won't have the same team next year, to presume otherwise is a far bigger stretch. Wel be going for Cunha, say Delap is the striker and by all credible reports at least 2-3 other positions.

It's actually more realistic that half our outfield first XI is changed, concentrated on our biggest problem areas from this season.

We also have enough quality here and now to not finish 16th again. In reality if we had similar form next season we'd have Amorim sacked and a new manager put in to steer us where our quality reflects. This season is dire and performances terrible but let's not pretend this is status quo for next year. That's mental gymnastics.

EtH said:
Your whole first paragraph is pure conjecture. And arguing we’ll be better next season because of a preseason with the same manager who’s already been in the job for over six months is just blind hope. Also the nonsense about squad quality is irrelevant when the manager can’t get a tune out of the players.

I’m going to simplify this for you so there’s nothing to argue because both of the original points I made are true which were 1) Delap wouldn’t be on penos for us which would negatively affect his stats if he were to join and 2) we are just above the relegation zone ourselves. Both factual and beyond dispute.

Being that the trend over the past few seasons has been down down down I find it amazing that you think we should be ruled out of a relegation scrap next season. If I were a betting man I would certainly be more willing to put money on us being in and around the bottom four than the top four. But the reality is that currently we are 16th and deserve to be there.
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There's no conjecture. Giving a manager better players tends to yield improved results, and having a pre season to reset and implement his style with better suited players is quite a material case for suggesting we won't finish 16th again.

To answer the two points though :

1) You thought scoring penalties means it's fair to assume he's nothing more than an 8 goal a season striker. Without penalties he has 10 goals for a relegated side with 40% possession, and there's more reason to suggest he can improve on that tally than otherwise, so yes it's a very moot point. 16% of his output is penalties, it really doesn't take anything away from his end product.

2) being above relegation ourselves now means nothing because Delap is joining a side in a new campaign with improved quality. If next season our performances are similar to now, then you can compare the service to what he got with us vs Ipswich.

But since you're struggling with that point let's make it easy - us being above relegation doesn't mean much in the context of my point. He scored 12 goals (10 from open play) in his debut year for a worse side that has 40% possession on average.
To suggest he is always just an 8 goal a season striker at 22 from after then having better quality players around him seeing more of the ball is nothing short of lazy and fear mongering conjecture.
 
davidmichael said:
Think I said that earlier in the thread or another one as I think Delap has shown enough to make me think he’d do better for us than Hojlund has but I don’t think he’s a generational striker like Rooney or Shearer were so can’t go into next season with Delap as our main striker and there’s a great need for someone experienced in there too

Because of our finances and how much moving Hojlund on at a loss will feck us PSR wise I think Delap and David make great sense and we could loan Hojlund out for a season in the hope he does well like Antony has and can at least break even on Hojlund in regards to PSR which if loaned out for next season would stand at around £28 million which you’d think is doable in a years time with a good loan.
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I just don’t think we’re getting two of anybody that’s gonna cost a bit, so the pair of them for £30m makes sense.

For me the order of priority goes: Striker, midfielder, right wing back, number 10, goalkeeper. While at the same time we need two strikers. So I think we’re gonna have to be a bit shrewd in the market.
 
You would think McKenna would tell us if he's the business or not. Not sure I believe that after Ten Haag and his judgement of his own footballers but McKenna was a youth coach as well so probably can spot talents.
 
Scholsey2004 said:
You're presuming we won't be in a similar place next season but we've not currently got any real reason to believe that's the case. The same manager, the same team that can't consistently score goals and is on a negative goal difference. We've been poor at integrating new attackers for a long time so. You might need to temper your expectations somewhat as any improvement is likely to be incremental. There's one team between us and the drop zone, and on goal difference they're a better side than us and unlucky to be there
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How so?
 
VP89 said:
Of course it's an outlandish claim. For starters he's demonstrated making consistent steps up and second, his first year in the PL at 21 showed no signs of being out of place.

Normally for players where the shirt is too heavy or the quality is too big a step up you'd see a regression, temporary or otherwise. For anyone who's actually watched Delap in his games, it's clearly not the case.

You compare him to Mateta when he joined and it's even more impressive. The indicators you gave and his general performances suggest he's not going to go on to be some 8 goal a season striker. He's actually getting better and better.
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How many times have you seen players struggle to make the step up to United from any level, particularly in the last decade?

You sound like you're seeing what you want to see with Delap. We're probably the hardest team in world football to lead the line for at the moment because expectations are so far out of whack with reality. That's a lot of pressure for a young player to have to deal with unless they've demonstrated exceptional ability, which so far Delap hasn't.
 
DOTA said:
I'd be looking the cheaper end of the spectrum, not the kind of names and figures you're talking here. With the possible exception of David depending on how fierce the competition from the other suitors you mention is. I would be having Delap as the initial starter but adding an alternative, rather than trying to sign someone to be first choice ahead of him.
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Who are these strikers at the cheaper end of spectrum that we could sign then?
 
CM said:
How many times have you seen players struggle to make the step up to United from any level, particularly in the last decade?

You sound like you're seeing what you want to see with Delap. We're probably the hardest team in world football to lead the line for at the moment because expectations are so far out of whack with reality. That's a lot of pressure for a young player to have to deal with unless they've demonstrated exceptional ability, which so far Delap hasn't.
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That speaks more to the poor recruitment though. You're evaluating Delap by association of previous transfers which is flawed.

The last time we bought a kid to be striker before Hojlund it was Martial and it was probably bang for buck on balance. Injuries ruined him.

Also if you watch Delap and hear what he's about it's clear he's not fazed by pressure. His mentality is actually a lot stronger than the parallels some posters suggest when comparing to Hojlund.
 
CM said:
How many times have you seen players struggle to make the step up to United from any level, particularly in the last decade?

You sound like you're seeing what you want to see with Delap. We're probably the hardest team in world football to lead the line for at the moment because expectations are so far out of whack with reality. That's a lot of pressure for a young player to have to deal with unless they've demonstrated exceptional ability, which so far Delap hasn't.
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Yeah unfair from club to pile this pressure on his shoulders
 
Gandalf said:
With all due respect to Tim he is not exactly PL quality, I would be impressed if he could hit double figures in the Championship.
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I know nothing of him really but he's got four goals for the German national side in the last year, as well as his respectable league figures. I know international football can be odd at times but are Germany really so desperate they're picking some guy who would struggle in the Championship?
 
I can name more players who turned up in my 'top five league goals, age 27-30' search if you want but he was the name I remember because of the Spurs links.
 
croadyman said:
Who are these strikers at the cheaper end of spectrum that we could sign then?
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Not so convinced myself, but these three are out of contract this summer: Dominic Calvert-Lewin, Callum Wilson and Alexandre Lacazette. Other options could be Mitrovic and Aubameyang from the Saudi league, their contracts are ending 2026. But a)n I doubt we'd be interested in any of these and b) I wouldn't sign them.
 
VP89 said:
That speaks more to the poor recruitment though. You're evaluating Delap by association of previous transfers which is flawed.

The last time we bought a kid to be striker before Hojlund it was Martial and it was probably bang for buck on balance. Injuries ruined him.

Also if you watch Delap and hear what he's about it's clear he's not fazed by pressure. His mentality is actually a lot stronger than the parallels some posters suggest when comparing to Hojlund.
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I'm evaluating him based on where this team is, what it needs and what Delap can actually offer right now.

We're talking about a player whose only experiences as a professional football are for Championship sides and a relegated Premier League team. You can't compare any of those experiences to playing for United, even in our current guise. I would imagine that it's actually harder to play as a striker for this struggling United side than it was when we were in our successful era.

Given you took exception to the original point about Delap scoring 8 league goals next season, how many would you actually expect him to score next season if he did sign? It sounds like you've got very high expectations for him.
 
DOTA said:
I know nothing of him really but he's got four goals for the German national side in the last year, as well as his respectable league figures. I know international football can be odd at times but are Germany really so desperate they're picking some guy who would struggle in the Championship?
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He was in Bundesliga 2 up until 2 years ago and is about to turn 30, his goalscoring record in German football is miles short of the likes of Haller and Werner who failed fairly miserably in the PL. I know there are always exceptions to every rule but the indications are that he is well short of the quality needed to even crack the bench of most PL clubs. If we want a cheap veteran to pair with the likes of Delap I would rather go with someone like Callum Wilson for free on a pay as you play deal to protect us from his injury issues. He does have PL quality and could be capable of an Indian summer if he is healthy.
 
CM said:
I'm evaluating him based on where this team is, what it needs and what Delap can actually offer right now.

We're talking about a player whose only experiences as a professional football are for Championship sides and a relegated Premier League team. You can't compare any of those experiences to playing for United, even in our current guise. I would imagine that it's actually harder to play as a striker for this struggling United side than it was when we were in our successful era.

Given you took exception to the original point about Delap scoring 8 league goals next season, how many would you actually expect him to score next season if he did sign? It sounds like you've got very high expectations for him.
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I think he's capable of 12-15 goals in year one. The talk about wearing the United shirt is correct but it's not about experience as much as it is about mentality.

You need mentally strong, bullish players. Carlos Tevez came from Argentina, played 26 games with 7 goals for West Ham and had no problems being an absolute menace for us.

I'm not saying Delap is Tevez but the stats and styles are comparable and it's just one example of how mentality matters more than the level of experience. I spent some time watching Delap's interviews on skysports in one to ones and also watching, researching his play which is why I am more certain on my thoughts. He left city because he wanted game time and took a risk at the time. He was never phased by the new scenarios he was put in and the way he dealt with the Premier League oppositions is a reflection of that mentality. A raw player for sure and average finisher, but very two footed, quick and relentless in throwing himself around.

He never cowered in games and just went in against any defender in the PL from any team, there's some good examples of how he would drive the ball from deep in his own half and try to orchestrate things on his own. He's not a player that will be happy drifting in games for his performances. That type of mentality is key for United strikers, and when you consider his quality with that it's very positive
 
Delap is the perfect young, backup striker. Planning him to be our no.1 is a mistake. Maybe we still plan to get another CF and ship off Rasmus..
 
Gandalf said:
He was in Bundesliga 2 up until 2 years ago and is about to turn 30, his goalscoring record in German football is miles short of the likes of Haller and Werner who failed fairly miserably in the PL. I know there are always exceptions to every rule but the indications are that he is well short of the quality needed to even crack the bench of most PL clubs. If we want a cheap veteran to pair with the likes of Delap I would rather go with someone like Callum Wilson for free on a pay as you play deal to protect us from his injury issues. He does have PL quality and could be capable of an Indian summer if he is healthy.
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If we can get him pay as you go (players understandably don't tend to fancy these things really, so I'm not sure it's actually a possibility) then we can afford to sign a third striker for when he's injured. Wouldn't fancy him as one of two though.
 
Wow how the standards have fallen... Delap as no.1 and Kleindienst as no.2 amd we can be ready for relegation battle.
 
aeh1991 said:
Delap is the perfect young, backup striker. Planning him to be our no.1 is a mistake. Maybe we still plan to get another CF and ship off Rasmus..
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Exactly this, I think he is a decent player but the way Newcastle want to sign him as competition for Isak is the position we should be in, not signing him as our sole #9 and pinning everything on him.

We need to be getting to a place of multiple players of actual quality for each position.
 
aeh1991 said:
Delap is the perfect young, backup striker. Planning him to be our no.1 is a mistake. Maybe we still plan to get another CF and ship off Rasmus..
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I have a horrible feeling it will just be him if we don't make Champions League. If we do then hoping talk of signing someone more experienced will pick up after the final.
 
Apokalips said:
Exactly this, I think he is a decent player but the way Newcastle want to sign him as competition for Isak is the position we should be in, not signing him as our sole #9 and pinning everything on him.

We need to be getting to a place of multiple players of actual quality for each position.
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Yeah their recruitment guys know what they are doing whereas still think there is huge question marks over ours. How we can't see he needs to be backed up by someone more experienced is beyond me.
 
croadyman said:
I have a horrible feeling it will just be him if we don't make Champions League. If we do then hoping talk of signing someone more experienced will pick up after the final.
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I agree in an ideal world you want an established player.

But if the finances are tighter due to other problem areas I sort of get it.

For example if Mateta is £20m more, we are then looking for about £40m for a 10. Say Dibbling? Unsure who else we can bag for that.

In isolation I think £30m for Delap is a very good deal for any club, but our issue is we need someone more established in an ideal world.
 
VP89 said:
I agree in an ideal world you want an established player.

But if the finances are tighter due to other problem areas I sort of get it.

For example if Mateta is £20m more, we are then looking for about £40m for a 10. Say Dibbling? Unsure who else we can bag for that.

In isolation I think £30m for Delap is a very good deal for any club, but our issue is we need someone more established in an ideal world.
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Yet, we seemingly want to sign two 10s for a combined 120m..
 
VP89 said:
If we spent on Cunha, Semenyo and had Delap alongside Bruno and Amad - do you really think we would be struggling for goals?
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We would probably score more than we did this season, but I strongly believe the money could be spent better.
 
DJ_21 said:
You must be about 5/6 years old then. Forgetting Pogba? Lingard, Martial? I’m not defending Rashford by any means I’m just saying if one of him or sancho stays it’s most likely going to be him.
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I think Rashford was the kingpin, or the thought leader of that group of poor attitude players. I think they pushed their limits based on what they seen Rashford get away with. I think if Rashford was a more professional player then that group wouldn't have gotten away with nearly as much.
 
Utterly De Ligt'd said:
I think Rashford was the kingpin, or the thought leader of that group of poor attitude players. I think they pushed their limits based on what they seen Rashford get away with. I think if Rashford was a more professional player then that group wouldn't have gotten away with nearly as much.
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If anything, Rashford seemed the more grounded of Pogba, Lingard etc. didn’t see him doing silly tik tok dances and the like.
 
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