Lingard to join West Ham on loan

Falcow

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:lol:

Ffs mate that was a joke lighten up.



Arguably yes, would you also rate Iheanacho as one of the top 4-5 players in the league based on the last few months?



I doubt I'll remember about it mate to be honest.
No to iheanacho being a top 4 or 5 player in the league but yes to him being one of the best over the last couple of months. Similar to Lingard, he would probably have performed better for us during that time than Martial has.

Anyway I'm sure I have work to do or something rather than debating Lingard with a fellow red. Let's hope he keeps it up and we get a good fee for him at end of season as I'm sure he is leaving anyway. The loan as a shop window is working very well thankfully.
 

The Original

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We are currently 8 points above West Ham who next weekend have to play direct rivals Leicester City as well as have a game against direct rivals Chelsea and Everton still to play. It's a whole lot more difficult schedule for them compared to the games they've played since he's arrived that Jesse's been involved in.

We are 9 points above 5th place with Chelsea still having to play Leicester, City, West Ham.

West Ham is not a long-term rival and them picking up points against other teams doesn't affect us greatly this season. No one is expecting them to replicate this season over the course of another season.

United, of course, had a choice to keep Lingard on and give him games to prove himself but obviously, this would have been sparingly and with an upcoming Euro and his contract expiring this wouldn't have benefited the club nor the player.

We have to do the best for our players, especially players like Jesse who's come through the academy and been a loyal servant for many years, and giving him the chance to play games was the only right thing to do. That he's done well is only a positive for us in the sense that we'll likely make more money of his sale now than we'd if he had been sold in January.

No one would've expected him to have an impact to this extent so you can't really say it's a "genius" move. But it's worked out in a very favourable fashion for us.
I agree that it's worked out fine, but.my point was that this certainly was not the outcome Ole foresaw when he let Lingard go on loan. So it could not be a brilliant decision, just a happy coincidence.
 

Patchbeard

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For West Ham he's already scored 1/3rd of the goals he scored for us, in only 1/16th of the appearances. Still a decent prospect.
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
No to iheanacho being a top 4 or 5 player in the league but yes to him being one of the best over the last couple of months. Similar to Lingard, he would probably have performed better for us during that time than Martial has.

Anyway I'm sure I have work to do or something rather than debating Lingard with a fellow red. Let's hope he keeps it up and we get a good fee for him at end of season as I'm sure he is leaving anyway. The loan as a shop window is working very well thankfully.
We agree there mate I hope he keeps this form up whether or not he leaves or stays. Either way United benefit.
 

Verminator

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Just watched the highlights from last night.
He showed far greater awareness in his goal and assist, than I've come to expect from Rashford. Why should that be?

For his goal, he kept them guessing which way he would turn. For his assist, he recognised he was outnumbered (probably didn't know there was a pack of 6 Wolves players chasing him), and released the ball.
For his goal, I'd expect Marcus to lose the ball with a heavy touch forwards.
The assist, I'm used to seeing him keep hold onto it, and run straight into a defender.

I hope Marcus saw that, and recognised the need to work on this area of his game.

Hope it works out for Jesse. A United fan born and bred. He lived our dreams, but may ultimately find happiness elsewhere.
 
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He'sRaldo

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No. What I’m suggesting is that coaching here is so bad it turns players to shit. And no amount of fancy words are going to change what our eyes are seeing. We can’t pass every well for example. And it’s been that way for awhile.
You could have described it better, but you're correct and of course people will not want to admit it.

The people saying Lingard is a counter-attacking player don't get that that's the point. The whole point is to put players in positions where they will succeed. The same way we won't play Mata when we need pace and power vs City, why would we not play Lingard in situations where his strengths are emphasized?

Take Lukaku. Everyone knows he's not a target man. Touch and holdup play are shite. So what do we do when we buy him? Play him as a lone target man where he needs to show top level touch and holdup play. Pogba never showed the defensive nous to be a DM in a midfield 2, so what do we do when we buy him? Play him in a midfield 2 constantly, ignore his occasional top performances in 3, and never even buy an adequate DM to play alongside him. Lingard has never shown himself to be someone who can be relied on as the (first choice) creative player, so what do we do? Make his position the most important creativity wise ahead of Pogba who is busy sitting back as a DM. Donny came from a team where the creativity comes from the system and individual brilliance is not as needed, so what do we do when we buy him? Play him in the position where individual brilliance is most necessary for us. And many, many more examples.

These decisions we make just don't make sense and don't get the best out of obviously talented but not world class players. So while it may not be the "coaching" exactly that's bad, I 100% agree that the decision-making of the club definitely has been bad going back a whooping 4 managers now. Each manager has had the things they get right of course, but at the end it's always been these glaring mistakes that eventually take them down.
 

Ekeke

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Martial a bad example then, didnt realise he had that many games for Monaco. Diallo however only played 4 games for Atlanta before we paid €25m or €40 depending on what you read for him proving that astronomical fees after a handful of games do happen. I'm sure there are examples from other clubs, that's just at Man Utd.

And no, I'm not comparing Lingard to Diallo.....in case anyone struggles with context.
But again we signed Diallo due to what he did at youth level and the fact he's 18.

We obviously wouldnt pay £50 million for someone who played well for 8 games at 28 years old
 

Champ

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From the perspective of Ole loaning him out to West Ham simply cannot be called brilliant. This argument has two limbs, first, that the decision was not Ole's at all, and secondly that the brilliant outcome is actually negative from Man Utd's perspective.


To begin with, the fact is that it was Jesse's choice to go on loan, not Ole's. Letting him go was merely a logical concession.

Secondly, that it has turned out brilliantly for Jesse and West Ham means that a non rival has been turned into a direct rival albeit a distant one.

So here we are with a man Utd fan claiming that a decision by the man Utd manager to strengthen a close competitor and turn them into direct rivals was a brilliant decision. Really?

To illustrate, just this weekend, all other top four contenders dropped points. West Ham too would have if not for Jesse. Had they lost points, top 4 would have all but mathematically been certified.
Ole has the final say with regards to outgoings of his squad, that much is evident. So yes, Ole had the say as to whether Lingard went out on loan or not.

The fact that you see this a strengthining a rival is quite a good point - I see it as that too, but one whereby the rival can take points of our other rivals! Lingard cannot play against his parent club, so really it's a bit of a moot point, West Ham are not a direct rival, and one player does not strengthen a team and turn them into a direct rival, it will help certainly, but not the only reason.

The simplistic way of looking at it is Lingard wouldn't hvae played much, if at all here, Ole knew that but could have kept him as a squad backup player, however decided to send him out on loan to see if he could recapture his form. This he has done, which means we get either a confident player back at the end of the season, or a higher price than what we would have got previously.

Ole has made the correct decision and it has paid off brilliantly.
 

Djemba-Djemba

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The thing is Wolves showed no respect to West Ham. There is no way they play like that against us. Lingard is a classic counter attacking player who thrives when given space to run into. That makes it a bit pointless comparing his WH performances to our players especially as we've seen how useless he is against parked buses over the years. 90 % of our games are against double deckers.

He's good enough to be a squad player for United but let's be real, it's time to move him on. Raise 25m+ and use it to improve our starting XI.
Exactly this.

Wolves gave Lingard acres of space to run into last night, which he did brilliantly.

If Wolves were playing Utd last night we know what would happen, they'd have stuck 11 men behind the ball and tried to bore their way to a 0-0. And Lingard would be faced with having to pass his way through a team parking the bus, which we know he isn't good at, and he would have looked shite.

I think anyone wanting Lingard back is mental. It's better for all parties if he goes this summer.
 

gazbradley

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Happy for Lingard, he’s a decent player and it’s good to see him playing well but it’s definitely the right time to sell. If someone is willing to pay 30 mil or over we should be snapping their hands off, can see him going for around 20 mil maybe more if we can get a bidding war going
 

Falcow

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But again we signed Diallo due to what he did at youth level and the fact he's 18.

We obviously wouldnt pay £50 million for someone who played well for 8 games at 28 years old
Yes but you didnt say thay in your initial response to the poster who mentioned the €50m hence why I pointed out that there is precedence in paying big money for players who have played a very small number of games.

It's either that or you think Lingard has played 8 good games only in his entire career, which of course is not the case.
 

Hester_manc

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How did this happen? Lingard has been very poor for us when given the chance. He almost looks like Berbatov on speed for West Ham. We have to give him a chance and a run in United. And let us see, who else we can loan out to West Ham, so we can get a true quality player back - maybe Daniel James could come back as the next Ryan Giggs.
 

Eternitiy

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When he's happy and in form he's really great to watch.

I find it so weird that a lot of our fans insult former players like Lingard and Welbeck. It's quite disheartening.
 

Eric has landed

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You could have described it better, but you're correct and of course people will not want to admit it.

The people saying Lingard is a counter-attacking player don't get that that's the point. The whole point is to put players in positions where they will succeed. The same way we won't play Mata when we need pace and power vs City, why would we not play Lingard in situations where his strengths are emphasized?

Take Lukaku. Everyone knows he's not a target man. Touch and holdup play are shite. So what do we do when we buy him? Play him as a lone target man where he needs to show top level touch and holdup play. Pogba never showed the defensive nous to be a DM in a midfield 2, so what do we do when we buy him? Play him in a midfield 2 constantly, ignore his occasional top performances in 3, and never even buy an adequate DM to play alongside him. Lingard has never shown himself to be someone who can be relied on as the (first choice) creative player, so what do we do? Make his position the most important creativity wise ahead of Pogba who is busy sitting back as a DM. Donny came from a team where the creativity comes from the system and individual brilliance is not as needed, so what do we do when we buy him? Play him in the position where individual brilliance is most necessary for us. And many, many more examples.

These decisions we make just don't make sense and don't get the best out of obviously talented but not world class players. So while it may not be the "coaching" exactly that's bad, I 100% agree that the decision-making of the club definitely has been bad going back a whooping 4 managers now. Each manager has had the things they get right of course, but at the end it's always been these glaring mistakes that eventually take them down.
spot on
 

Ekeke

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Yes but you didnt say thay in your initial response to the poster who mentioned the €50m hence why I pointed out that there is precedence in paying big money for players who have played a very small number of games.

It's either that or you think Lingard has played 8 good games only in his entire career, which of course is not the case.
Half a season for us, 8 games for West Ham. But its only the 8 games for West Ham that have made people suggest hes worth £50 million
 

Raveneye

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I doubt West Ham would be willing to let Declan Rice go for cheap, but if a Lingard swap deal would allow Manchester United to get him with still enough funds for Sancho and maybe Pau Torres, that would be an amazing summer after resting the books last year.
 

Polar

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first, that the decision was not Ole's at all, and secondly that the brilliant outcome is actually negative from Man Utd's perspective.
You are twisting it too much. Ole could off course have stopped the deal if he wanted, and if West Ham is a competitor who believed that before the deal was sealed.
 

Fahad Jawaid

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Happy for him, and tbh its great for us as well, not only our position in the top 4 becomes secured, as he takes point off our top 4 rivals. He will also fetch us a good price and during this covid time, we need to obtain good price on sales.

He may be the difference between a Sancho and one random player to. Sancho and Grealish or Sancho and Kounde.
 

city-puma

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Don’t get me wrong. I think the reason at least partially, comes from the space he has when playing in westham team. I really rate lingard as a top player. His X factor is his spatial awareness so that he can always on the move and have a superb first touch to get the ball under control in a position the opponent can’t easily recover, just like yesterday’s assistant to Bowne.
however, when he plays with us, very rare he can have space because most of opponents just have everyone in their lower third. Combined with his earlier personal issues, his performance has been so dire to watch.
really hope he can make a permanent move to westham and continue a great career. We have more talents emerging now. There is no way to stop the tide.
 

Bird Nerd

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If you can sell and recoup some money.....do it. He obviously wasn't fitting into the Ole requirements for the club so just send him on his way and promote from within if there is anyone imminently ready.
 

Tom Cato

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No. What I’m suggesting is that coaching here is so bad it turns players to shit. And no amount of fancy words are going to change what our eyes are seeing. We can’t pass every well for example. And it’s been that way for awhile.
Mate, just no.
 

lilcurt

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Struggle to get a tune out of our players? This cacophony of apparently poorly coached footballers sits second in the premier league.

How about what it says for the pressure at this club and how it impacts players differently?
I hate this argument, we are sitting second in the league so all is ok. Let's put it in perspective shall we...

City are running away with the league for fun.
Liverpool have had a catostrophic season pretty littered with injuries.
Chelsea have Lampard for half a season and you can see a massive improvement.
Leicester who's squad is miles behind ours are only a few points off us.
Spurs have Jose...

Now yes I'm being overly negative here but playing devil's advocate to your optimism. I just don't think we are well coached or technically adept.

I suspect a top manager would be getting far more from the team.

In terms of only getting a tune out of the players. I would say Shaw is the only improved player under Ole, everyone else is static or going backwards.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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I hate this argument, we are sitting second in the league so all is ok. Let's put it in perspective shall we...

City are running away with the league for fun.
Liverpool have had a catostrophic season pretty littered with I I just don't think we are well coached or technically adept.

I suspect a top manager would be getting far more.out the squad. injuries.
Chelsea have Lampard for half a season and you can see a massive improvement.
Leicester who's squad is miles behind ours are only a few points off us.
Spurs have Josenow yes I'm being overly negative here but playing devil's advocate to your optimism.
Seeing as I never said "all is ok" the rest of your argument kind of falls apart.

Also, this was in reference to Jesse Lingard.

But to play along, if we are so poorly coached and are in second, imagine how much more poorly coached the remaining 18 teams are in comparison.
 

lilcurt

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Seeing as I never said "all is ok" the rest of your argument kind of falls apart.

Also, this was in reference to Jesse Lingard.
I appreciate it is regarding Lingard, he is the current prime example which shows coaching could play a part.

An while you didn't say all is ok, you did dismiss my concern on the basis we are second. In my opinion ignoring the style of play, elimination from a positive position in the CL and to this point failure all in cup competitions. The bar really has fallen.
 

Falcow

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Half a season for us, 8 games for West Ham. But its only the 8 games for West Ham that have made people suggest hes worth £50 million
Yet exactly nobody suggested he was worth 50m based on only 8 games. It was your self that brought the 8 games into it. RashyForPm certainly didnt mention 8 games.

What @RashyForPM said was "He’s now operating at the level where if he had never played for us, we’d be clamouring for United to snap him up for £50m"

Not sure how in your reply you managed to take only playing 8 games from that. And for the record, he has had a relatively decent career by age 28, winner in FA cup final, played/scored for country in WC finals, Europa league medal. You keep on telling yourself however that its only half a season if it makes you feel better.
 

Redlyn

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The highlights are all him. Great solo goal, berbaesque pre-assist, then capped off with the assist. Huge role played in every goal. The best form of his career? I know he had another purple patch some years ago but this one seems to be even better.

However I still want him sold. Let's freshen things up. He has had his chances here, at least now his value has increased and we could well get 20-25m for him. Win-win.
 

Polar

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You could have described it better, but you're correct and of course people will not want to admit it.

The people saying Lingard is a counter-attacking player don't get that that's the point. The whole point is to put players in positions where they will succeed. The same way we won't play Mata when we need pace and power vs City, why would we not play Lingard in situations where his strengths are emphasized?

Take Lukaku. Everyone knows he's not a target man. Touch and holdup play are shite. So what do we do when we buy him? Play him as a lone target man where he needs to show top level touch and holdup play. Pogba never showed the defensive nous to be a DM in a midfield 2, so what do we do when we buy him? Play him in a midfield 2 constantly, ignore his occasional top performances in 3, and never even buy an adequate DM to play alongside him. Lingard has never shown himself to be someone who can be relied on as the (first choice) creative player, so what do we do? Make his position the most important creativity wise ahead of Pogba who is busy sitting back as a DM. Donny came from a team where the creativity comes from the system and individual brilliance is not as needed, so what do we do when we buy him? Play him in the position where individual brilliance is most necessary for us. And many, many more examples.

These decisions we make just don't make sense and don't get the best out of obviously talented but not world class players. So while it may not be the "coaching" exactly that's bad, I 100% agree that the decision-making of the club definitely has been bad going back a whooping 4 managers now. Each manager has had the things they get right of course, but at the end it's always been these glaring mistakes that eventually take them down.
May I ask were we should have played Lingard instead?

To say we have played Pogba as a DM is an exaggeration. Agree Pogba should play higher on the pitch, but at the same time I understand why we sometimes don’t. To play Bruno, Rash, Greenwood, Pogba and Martial in offensive positions at the same time is a bit overkill, and Pogba is obviously to good to be ignored.

All your examples actually prove we don’t have the right players (or combination of players) with thought of the football we want to play or the system we’ve decided to go for.

We are still in a build up (even though someone hate it or believe in quick fixes). During a build up it’s wise to introduce a system and build it stepwise (recruit players who fits the system) instead of solely building a system on existing players. Perhaps we would’ve played better now if we did, but I’m pretty sure we’re doing what’s best in order to build up a team who can bring us titles on a regular basis the next 10 years - maybe already from next season, if we do well in the summer window.
 

The Original

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You are twisting it too much. Ole could off course have stopped the deal if he wanted, and if West Ham is a competitor who believed that before the deal was sealed.
You're making my point really. Ole could have stopped the deal but didn't because like I said, it was the logical concession. However he clearly didn't not intend this outcome.

As you said, West Ham were not seen as a competitor but the coming of Lingard was the factor that propelled them to that point. Had Ole foreseen this, he won't have let him go there.

Therefore Ole doesn't get credit for making a "brilliant decision" when he never intended these outcomes.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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I appreciate it is regarding Lingard, he is the current prime example which shows coaching could play a part.

An while you didn't say all is ok, you did dismiss my concern on the basis we are second. In my opinion ignoring the style of play, elimination from a positive position in the CL and to this point failure all in cup competitions. The bar really has fallen.
You missed my alternative possibility for Jesse's upturn in form, that being the immense pressure playing at a club like United brings on a player. Some cope with it and thrive, others are weighed down by it and hide. It doesn't mean they're bad players or poorly coached and indeed many of our academy lads go on to have great premier league careers at lesser clubs. It's no slight on them, just a unique element that they don't have to contend with elsewhere.

Plus, as I mentioned earlier, your post meant I got to use cacophony in a football forum post. That opportunity doesn't come along every day.