I think it's fine to rate Pele as the greatest but it should be based on performances not number of WCs. As per that Mbappe winning this WC would have put him above Maradona. Makes no sense.
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
It's always interesting to see when great players decide to retire at least from the spotlight / major leagues. For Messi this is not going to be topped really. Wherever he plays, it'll be a slow but sure regression into becoming a 'normal' footballer. Part of me thinks this kind of conclusion to a career is something nobody can ask for or expect so it's a perfect time. But of course it's hard for players to leave what they're used to and what keeps them ticking.
I’m somewhat relieved the whole Messi vs Ronaldo debate has been largely put to bed with this one. Aside from a few die hard delusionists.
Messi vs Ronaldo is now I think 100% clear cut in Messi’s favour. That’s not to say that Ronaldo wasn’t also an amazing player.
Personally I think the World Cup win has ticked the final box for me to say I think he’s the best ever but it will always be close with Maradonna.
At 35 years old to have done what he’s done this WC is sensational.
Personally I think the World Cup win has ticked the final box for me to say I think he’s the best ever but it will always be close with Maradonna.
At 35 years old to have done what he’s done this WC is sensational.
Beautiful, thank you for this. Yeah I get it, love for Diego surpasess football itself, its bigger than football and life.
Messi had a lot of criticism in Argentina before as I gather so its great that he acomplished this and will be forever noted in Argentinian history.
Maybe its for another thread so we can move it there, but how's life in Argentina right now in general? From a few bits you wrote it sounds not so great.
And Messi has 4 international player of the tournament awards. He's also the only player in history with multiple World Cup golden balls.
This isn't a debate. One is among the best performers on the international level in the sport's history. The other couldn't ever do it at the World Cup.
Hilarious, isn't? As if he belongs with them
I think Messi is the best I've ever seen by some distance btw, but this point I think is overstated. However there's pros and cons.
The WC has a 92 year history. That's 23 World Cups in history. Let's unpack it a little to be objective.
As per the wiki:
That's 10 world cups (40 years of WCs hosted every 4 years).
You're basically saying he's won 20% of all Golden Balls.
The World Cup happens so irregularly, and the Golden Ball is still a recent memory that of course in terms of rarity it sounds impressive but maybe not.
Pros
There's hundreds of players and someone in peak form can win it in a year, through scoring a lot of goals, so Messi winning it twice is a testament to his longevity 2014 and 2022.
In terms of rarity its probably the rarest prize in football or one of the rarest, since one player at a WC can take it home.
Negatives
However, It's such a new award that it's only been handed out ten times. If this was awarded in all WCs since the WC started 92 years ago more players would have won 2 golden balls and a WC.
What makes it impressive to me is Maradona only won one when he had stand out tournaments multiple times, but I don't think the sample size is large enough to be significant.
Messi has been stellar for 3 WCs though in my eyes, not taking anything away from who I think is the GOAT seen him play in person many times. But I just don't feel its been awarded enough, it's such a tiny slice of footballing history.
Football only got heavily commercial in the 1970s and Adidas started to get their fingers into the WC.
Taking nothing away from him though, it's just say you take the Nations League as an example you can say Portugal have won 50% of all Nations League when only 2 teams have been awarded it.
FYI no player has ever won more than one Golden Ball though before Messi, it points more to his longevity in the era of modern football which I think its amazing.
Maradona winning the league with Napoli and world cup with a much inferior Argentinian side to this one is a strong part of his case. Also different era's, if Diego played in this era and wasn't such a nut case, I have no doubt his numbers would be far greater than they were, but it's not all about numbers. Ability with a football, Maradona for me still the greatest but Messi has definitely just enhanced his side of the argument while Ronaldo continues to tarnish his.
I agree. The sport has changed, obviously. We can't use statistics to compare eras because formations weren't expansive in the mid 80s (especially Seria A when the top scorers list had people hovering around 15 goals).
Maradona's argument would be his peak (the 1986 world cup and obviously dragging Napoli to the league title twice with 2 second placed finishes).
Are you seriously suggesting that current Argentina team is superior to Maradona's Argentina?
I find it hilarious how people make it like either Napoli of 80s or Argentina of 80s were bunch of farmers with Maradona. While their is no doubt Maradona was the key driving force, and his performances were outstanding, but to suggest that his Argentina was inferior to current one is revisionism .
Fair point, I think it's when you look at the 1990 WC and Maradona dragging them to the final with a definite average side that we can forget the 86 edition was actually very strong. Napoli were of course a good side, but still never winning those titles without Diego, but maybe some romanticism too as Naples such a poor unfashionable part of Italy compared to the giants of Milan, Turin and Rome.
Messi is clearly the best player of his generation, Ronaldo is clearly 2nd best, Messi is clear of him and he's clear of the next tier that has the likes of Modric Benzema.
I don't think this needs to be exemplified further.
I don't think this needs to be exemplified further.
are these so called much inferior Argentinian side Sunday league players ?
The fact that people are genuinely trying to shoehorn the Nation's League into any conversation about career achievements is fecking hilarious.
Him and Maradona are neck and neck ability wise. Messi did it for longer at the highest level. Maradona played in a much rougher era when the pitches were shit and he could get kicked to pieces. So, yeah it's hard to pick between them.
I've seen so little of Pele but by all accounts he was equal to them.
In other words, it's a toss up.
I've seen so little of Pele but by all accounts he was equal to them.
In other words, it's a toss up.
The debate was long ago made a shambles in my mind by the Ronaldo sides inability to make their mind up on their own imaginary GOAT criteria. Goals (but not goals per game or goals+assists)? International trophies (only as far as 2016)? Leagues won in different countries (as opposed to absolute number of leagues won)? And so on. I think people are also tired of the Ronaldo fanboys making out like he played in tuna-can sides that won things because of this one Roy of the Rovers esque player. Ronaldo played in a Man United team that won leagues and got to CL Final without him, a Real Madrid side with 2 Balon D'Or winners and who continued to win leagues and CL without him, a Juventus side that had won every league for almost a decade and Portugal teams that were stacked with talent - let's not forget that "Golden Generation" that was making SF and lost 2004 Final with Figo, Rui Costa, Deco etc. And yet every single trophy won by those sides is attributed to him, and only him. The Ronaldo fans have consistently moved the goalposts. When he was part of the team that won the Euros that "settled", and no doubt now that Messi has had the objectively better international career, that won't matter. People are just laughing at this point.
Meanwhile Messi is portrayed as having only won what he has won due to the stacked teams he has played in. Despite Barcelona falling off a cliff without him. Or Argentina almost not qualifying without him. It isn't a reach to describe this current Argentina team as the least talented collectively of any team either of them played for .... I know United last year was a worse team but it had a lot of talent in it. But as always it will be made out that this Argentina team is stacked with generational talent instead of made up of players from Villa, Lyon, Benfica, Spurs, Brighton etc.
The reality is, both of them were great. But I personally wonder about the comprehension of football of anyone who puts CR7 in GOAT status. Comparable to Messi in longevity and goals scored but behind in terms of goals per game and dribbling (Ronaldo was great when younger but his dribbling ability faded, Messi remains a brilliant dribbler even now) and absolutely miles behind in terms of passing, assisting and dropping to midfield to control a game. How someone can look at that collective set of facts and stats, and think it should be measured on pure goalscoring, even when Messi wins out on goals per game, is beyond me.
Agreed.
End of thread.
Great post.
Summed up well as can be.
Another point people fail to mention is Maradona won things in the late 70s and early 80s , when South American football was good as, if not better than European football. The 1978 Argentina team had all their players, bar Kempis, who played in South America and the 1982 Brazil team had the same (Falco was the exception). Then you had Flamengo, who destroyed Liverpool in the World Club Cup in that era.
Maradona was dominating it as a teenager. Incredible!
It’s really not admirable, IMO. It’s actually a much better trait (for various reasons) for someone to put up their hand, fess up and change their minds when the facts/reality changes and shows a different direction. To be so dead set in one way of thinking/one opinion is not healthy.
getting flat earther vibes reading certain posters here
Yeah this is a good way of looking at it - and agree with your assessment. I'd pick Messi but obviously seen way more of him, and it just comes down to personal preference at the end of the day.
Over the years I've had periods where I thought Diego was the best and periods where I thought it was Pele, it's impossible to make a clear distinction really.
Yeah. I’ve mentioned that I wonder how his mental health is, as he’s debating the same thing over and over. I’ve been on message forums since 1999 and at one point I had to stop getting into heated debates because it used to take a toll on my mental health. Maybe he deals with it better than me though. But it would drain the feck out of me
The one tournament where Ronaldo has a better goal contribution record is the Europa league.
Yeah 1986 and 2022 are very similar, in fact maybe the worst teams that have won if you took one player out - Messi and Maradona. Both teams have been by far the most reliant on a single player.
Ruggeri from 1986 was a better defender than anyone in 2022. He won everything in South America that year, he was only in La Liga for one season and he won the league and foreign player of the year. Batista and Burruchaga were as good as any of their centre mids, although Fernandez may go on to greater things.
Almost everyone knows who Maradona is but does everyone know who is Johan Cruyff?
See the problem? For football fans, Cruyff is an absolute legend but for non football fans, he's nobody. Without something to cement your legend status, it will fade in time.
See the problem? For football fans, Cruyff is an absolute legend but for non football fans, he's nobody. Without something to cement your legend status, it will fade in time.
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There is no longer any serious debate whatsoever when it comes to the idiotic comparisons between Lionel Messi and C. Ronaldo. Messi has always been the superior player and talent with the superior career resume. The amazing World Cup win, breaking several records in the process, and having one of the best World Cup performances in history at the freaking age of 35.5 years and winning arguably the most dramatic World Cup final in history in the process, was just a giant cherry on top of the cake.
Messi is in a different stratosphere and only the likes of Maradona and Pelé can even be compared with him.
The final chapters in Messi's book are yet to be written, he, Mbappé, Neymar and PSG can make life even more miserable for the C. Ronaldo brigade later this season to further put a few more nails in the already buried coffin.
The coping is a sight to behold. Please carry on, especially that Portuguese Sporting caricature of a character. What a sight to behold that guy is. This thread is redundant at this point in time but his and his likes meltdowns alone, is worth it all. Obrigado, vizinho.
Messi is in a different stratosphere and only the likes of Maradona and Pelé can even be compared with him.
The final chapters in Messi's book are yet to be written, he, Mbappé, Neymar and PSG can make life even more miserable for the C. Ronaldo brigade later this season to further put a few more nails in the already buried coffin.
The coping is a sight to behold. Please carry on, especially that Portuguese Sporting caricature of a character. What a sight to behold that guy is. This thread is redundant at this point in time but his and his likes meltdowns alone, is worth it all. Obrigado, vizinho.
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No, they were a very good side too in 86
Aye, it's one trait which makes social media so hostile and hateful; so many people simply refusing to back down from their way of thinking no matter what. I guess they see it as a sign of weakness
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The problem is, people just use stats, trophies and individual awards to argue in the favour of who is better.
For crying out loud, just watch them play and it's so clear cut that Messi is a level above and always has been.
For crying out loud, just watch them play and it's so clear cut that Messi is a level above and always has been.
I still remember there wasn't much news on social media when Cruyff when he passed compared to Maradona passing which creates a big hoo haa, even the imbecilic minster from my country comment on his passing.
There's literally zero debate one can make for Ronaldo over Messi.
He trumps him in pretty much everything. Ignoring the quite obvious fact he's simply a better footballer, he's now easily a greater footballer too. That was the only real argument Ronaldo fans had to propel him over Messi all-time, and that's now dead in the water after this WC.
The only 2 players you can make arguments for are Pele and Maradona. And those arguments will be tough because of the extremely different eras all 3 played in.
If you value longevity, Pele's got a better argument than Maradona.
If you value peak performance, Maradona's got a better argument than Pele.
Really depends on the criteria. All 3 of them sit on their own table for me with a clear gap to the players in the tier below them.
He trumps him in pretty much everything. Ignoring the quite obvious fact he's simply a better footballer, he's now easily a greater footballer too. That was the only real argument Ronaldo fans had to propel him over Messi all-time, and that's now dead in the water after this WC.
The only 2 players you can make arguments for are Pele and Maradona. And those arguments will be tough because of the extremely different eras all 3 played in.
If you value longevity, Pele's got a better argument than Maradona.
If you value peak performance, Maradona's got a better argument than Pele.
Really depends on the criteria. All 3 of them sit on their own table for me with a clear gap to the players in the tier below them.
A lot of non football fans have never heard of many great players who won the WC.
Has he? Why? Please explain.
2005 FIFA U-20 Champions + MVP
2008 Olympics Champions + MVP
2014 FIFA World Cup 2nd + MVP
2015 Copa America 2nd + MVP
2021 Copa America Champions + MVP
2022 Finalissima Winners + Man of the Match
2022 Fifa World Cup Champions + MVP
enough said...
2008 Olympics Champions + MVP
2014 FIFA World Cup 2nd + MVP
2015 Copa America 2nd + MVP
2021 Copa America Champions + MVP
2022 Finalissima Winners + Man of the Match
2022 Fifa World Cup Champions + MVP
enough said...
Definitely. And it seems like they often compile 'cross sport GOAT lists' as well, comparing Lebron vs. Brady vs. Mayweather, debating who should be on a Mount Rushmore for sports stars etc. As a tennis fan, I found it embarrassing when they discussed the female GOAT in tennis as well.
I'm not sure if that's still the case (I haven't caught it for a while), but I remember when the Undisputed used to spend about 75% of the time discussing the Cowboys (including when the NFL playoffs were on and the Cowboys weren't part of them), Brady and Lebron (with Skip Bayless and Shannon Sharpe of course taking polar opposite stances re Brady and Lebron). Skip Bayless probably controls the agenda and so ensured that his 3 favourite topics were shoe-horned in time after time. The 25% of the time that they branched out and discussed other topics was significantly more enjoyable.
I love those silly goat debates. In the end, it's personal preference.
Can we really just use boring stats? What about the dozen of things that no one can control but have a huge impact on a player's career? Like having the wrong trainer, injuries, bad luck, bad day form, good luck, short career, private life drama (hi adriano) etcetera.
There are many "what if...?" in football.
In my little humble opinion if we go by raw talent, it can only be R9. If people like Zlatan, Zidane, Henry, Messi, Mourinho, Luis enrique, F. Torres, Nesta, maradona, Ronaldinho, Klose & co. say that this dude is prob the greatest they ever saw, might mean something. And I think we can compare 90s players a lot better to today's players too. Much better than a Pele/Müller/Beckenbauer to today.
Can we really just use boring stats? What about the dozen of things that no one can control but have a huge impact on a player's career? Like having the wrong trainer, injuries, bad luck, bad day form, good luck, short career, private life drama (hi adriano) etcetera.
There are many "what if...?" in football.
In my little humble opinion if we go by raw talent, it can only be R9. If people like Zlatan, Zidane, Henry, Messi, Mourinho, Luis enrique, F. Torres, Nesta, maradona, Ronaldinho, Klose & co. say that this dude is prob the greatest they ever saw, might mean something. And I think we can compare 90s players a lot better to today's players too. Much better than a Pele/Müller/Beckenbauer to today.
I wouldn't agree with Maradona having a better peak than Pelé, either, unless we are talking about single tournament performance over a month.
Pelé arguably had a higher (or at least equal) one or three-year peak than Maradona from '59-'61 and might compare to Messi in that regard.