Agree with that, it was kind of my point - the midfield generals move back to CM/DLP (Pirlo and Kroos literally did that during their careers - from #10 to #6/8), while the #10s of today tend to be more agile players, often with forward/winger characteristics. I still think the most plausible reason for that is reduced space and time in forward/midfield areas due to tactical and athletic improvements.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
Yes, and also, the simple athletic evolution of players allows for Kroos and Modric and Isco to play together. Back in the 70s, only brazil did it. Germany playing Overath and Netzer together in '72 was a big deal, and that germany team was much better than the '74 version. Just like nobody used zonal marking(watch the 70s final second half if you want to see a guide on how to pick man marking apart), playing two playmakers at the same time just wasn't done in europe. Nobody back then would have played pirlo and rivera together. Heck, Pirlo had to move back just so he could play for Brescia with Baggio
Didn't know Germany was a pioneer in that respect. Reminds me of an even earlier variant I saw some time ago: A double playmaker pivot of Beckenbauer/Overath in 1970. Both building up the play from deep, taking turns moving forward towards the opponent's box, with Seeler mostly occupying the #10 position. From Wiki I take that they might have played like that as early as the WC 1966. They were all Helmuth Schön's teams, so it seems this says something about his basic idea of football. (Minor point: I think Netzer & Overath didn't play together in 72, only earlier. Doesn't take anything away from what you said of course.)
Erm, I also think we should leave this thread to people who are actually discussing Messi.
Threads gone a bit off track?
Meanwhile, LM10 has really been relishing his return to the false 9 role at Barca. He wants the Balon D'or back...
He should 100% be winning the ballon d'or. Best player of 2017 by an absolute mile
Not enough Messi in the Messi thread
This statement is getting over the top and abit ridiculous. If you are talking purely about individual performance on the pitch, how would Messi being miles better than Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Pele and even George Best at their prime era is beyond mystery. If you are taking about overall best player, half of the period in this era (Messi prime years) was officially beaten by Ronaldo (Ballon D'or).
Not long before they have you believe that Messi can dribble on water.Officially beaten in an award. Messi is easily the better player. Although I don't see the point in going there so let's not.
Some of you would do well to actually go through a thread. Messi is comfortably on a different level every time (most times) he steps on the pitch. It would be the case in any era. Like it would be for Maradona and Pele (not Ronaldo no matter how many awards). With the greatest ever sportsman you can see their genius and how superior their natural gifts are compared to everyone else.
It would be the same if you put pele in the 90s I'm sure. Again one doesn't have to take this so literally so as to imagine Messi and pele playing in the same match.
The responses to my post have more to do with insecurity and agenda on this topic people have. I'm making an obvious point that holds true for all the players regarded as the greatest.
You're going to tell me he can't?
Boy some of you agenda driven chaps take things too literally. The greatest sportsman always look a cut above and would do so in every era (more often than not) I. E their class transcends was.
Federer and Messi from the ones I've see and the likes of R9, Maradona, Pele and Jordan im assuming this holds true.
It's, like, pretty uncontroversial and obvious.
The irony.
You're basically the Messi version of Cal.
1. He's not the greatest ever.
2. He's already failed multiple times when taken out of the Barca setup against oppositions that were nothing great.
He doesn't have the aura that the other names you took who when had absolutely everything on the line just went ahead and got the result. (Wouldn't include R9 in that list myself, absolutely love him and he's similar to Messi in that he's incredibly talented but not exactly supreme in terms of mental toughness and leadership.)
I don't disagree when people think Messi is the best player they've ever witnessed, everyone has their own favorites, and to be fair Messi is worthy to be regarded as one of the all time great in many peoples eye. But greatest also always comes with overall accomplishment (whether individual or club/country), and when it comes to measure greatest objectively, Messi isn't really above some of the past greats or even Ronaldo.
1.
He called Messi one of the greatest ever alongside Pelé, Maradona, etc. and stated that players of that calibre would stand out as the best in any era. Which I believe is a quite reasonable opinion.
2.
2006 WC : eliminated by Germany in QF on pens (Messi didn't play)
2007 CA : lost to Brazil in the Final
2010 WC : eliminated by Germany in QF
2011 CA : eliminated by Uruguay in QF on pens (Messi scored his)
2014 WC : lost to Germany in the Final after extra time
2015 CA : lost to Chile in the Final on pens (Messi scored his)
2016 CA : lost to Chile in the Final on pens (Messi missed his)
Nothing amazing and Messi could and should've done more at times, but you make it sound like Argentina were clear favourites every time.
Compared to Pelé: everyone would be inferior because it's almost completely impossible to replicate that Brazilian era of success.
Compared to Maradona: they both have 1 lost WC final, but Messi's shy a World Cup trophy obviously (and more specifically the best performance in an international tournament of all-time).
On the other hand, Diego didn't do much in Copa América (while his NT won two of them with him absent in '91 and '93) and was also "thrown out" of 2 other World Cups (one by sending off, the other for doping).
He's nowhere near them of course in terms of NT legacy, but 4 international finals doesn't really fit with your description of it either, in my opinion.
You need to do a bit of reading on the 1970 Italian team that he thrashed in the final. Also scored a brace in the WC final at the age of 17 against the hosts and before that a hat trick in the semi final against France that had Kopa and the WC top scorer Fontaine.
Don't disgrace his name by comparing it to a guy who lost a WC final to a Mario Gotze goal.
He is disgracing Pele's name by saying every other player's NT career looks inferior compared to him?
Nah you're basically Cal? in the closet.
I didn't say he's the greatest ever, numbnuts. I said all time greats work in every era. I see him one of those in the absolute top bracket or sportsman for sure, even though you don't. We can agree to disagree on that.
Disgracing Pele. Who actually talks likes that? Even if one considers Pele better (and I've heard arguments for and against that), only someone with a sad bias would consider a mere a comparison a disgrace/disgrace.Thank you.
There's nothing unreasonable about that at all. Your Federer's, Messi's, other all time great sportsman etc. are not going to struggle to look mentally good in any era. I'm applying this across the board really. Strange thing to get offended by.
How? I don't rate Cristiano in this company. Not calling Messi as some sort of football God isn't the same thing. On the other hand, you think he is immune to any criticism whatsoever.
Yeah, I don't. Top tier in football belongs to the likes of Pelé, Maradona and Beckenbauer. Messi, Cruyff etc are just below that.
Again, the irony hits you on the face, when you're just as adamant about peddling the Messi agenda. He's not the Federer or Jordan of football - Jordan comparison is so off the mark it's not even funny. If there's a Jordan of football - if you actually understand what Jordan contributed to basketball besides his technical skills - then no one comes closer to that achievement than Pelé.
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Saying Messi and Federer would also do great in other areas wasn't the bad part. This was the shocking part
Which is a load of nonsense.
'with the greatest ever sportsmen you can see their genius and how superior their natural gifts are compared to everyone else' - and how does that correlate to Messi and Federer being able to do it in any other era but Ronaldo, Nadal or Djokovic not? Being an all time great is about your achievements and your efficiency at winning, not how much of a genius you look while doing it. There are multiple ways to succeed at tennis or at football and there are multiple ways to achieve greatness in both sports. Why is natural talent and playing a specific style of play so important when there are so many other things that are important to achieving success in both sports?
I really wish there is a striker in the future who's a donkey on the ball but scores 5 goals every game while leading both his team and country to every title possible.
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Save for Germany 2014, Argentina were favorites for all those games.
Oh yes. That's so very "shocking". Ugh.
Eh? When did I say they wouldn't be able to translate it? Insecure much? What does etc mean to you?
Efficiency? You seem to want to drag Ronaldo into every thread so I'll respond once and then shoo you off to the other thread if you want to carry on that particular topic. I don't believe Messi is the best I've seen at merely looking the best or playing the prettiest football. Zidane was way more elegant for example. He's the best I've ever seen because he's most effective footballer I've seen.
You can agree to disagree with opinion, you know?,You don't have to pretend to know the criteria by which I'm forming mine and then criticise it for not producing the entire d result that fits the narrative you prefer.
That's highly debatable.
Based on what exactly were they favourites against Germany in 2010 ?
Against Uruguay in 2011 on paper certainly, meanwhile in reality that was far more even (let's not forget Uru had made the World Cup SF the year before and went on to win this tournament).
Brazil in '07 was pretty even going into the final as well.
The two clearest ones are the finals against Chile and let's even say Uruguay.
Like I said he should've done better but multiple finals and two WC eliminations at the hands of Germany (he didn't play in '06 so it's fairly moot to the point) aren't some grand failure in my book.
You're definitely a bit anal about this topic. I mean you try to appear rational but it's pretty obvious. Agenda posting can be seen a mile off. It's like the hype over Messi genuinely grates you badly. The last example - the disgrace post. That's just weird.
Oh no, criticize him all along. But when it's clearly got a strong bias or irrational, it gets called out. Simples.
Not interesting in Jordan or that sport. I just mentioned a sporting great, like Messi or all these names. Nothing hit me in the face. Your over reaching did backfire badly though given how you jumped on a standard post everyone would agree to.
Faid enough you don't. I reckon he's right up there.
You must make a good living out of being a mindreader.
Right here. With the greatest ever having Federer implied.
No, I didn't drag Cristiano into this. No idea why you're pretending I did, you were the one talking about it and my point isn't even about Cristiano in particular. I couldn't care less if you think Messi is the better player, plenty of people do, my problem is with the reasoning behind it. Saying Messi is easily the better player of the 2 is insane nevertheless but the problem is you continuously fail to recognise anything else in football other than what Messi is good at and even in a previous conversation you mentioned one needs to be a certain type of player to be considered alongside Pelé or Maradona. Cristiano has dominated this era alongside Messi for over a decade ffs and you go as far as implying he isn't even an all time great by saying this:
And then say this:
If anything out of the two Cristiano's the one who proved he can succeed in a bigger set of circumstances by doing it in England where he was kicked down as the tough british men saw fit and even in Europe where he manages to go up a level.
That's why I brought up the donkey striker example. If there's a striker in 20 years time who is a donkey on the ball but who's very athletic and tall that ends up having a career of 25 years where he scores 3000 goals by averaging 3 goals per match and leading his average team and country to every title imaginable you'd still not put him alongside Pelé or Maradona and you'd still say he wouldn't be able to do it in other eras merely because the way he plays isn't genius enough for you, regardless of his achievements and efficiency.
He wasn't belittling Pelé, simply stating that replicating his WC success is all but impossible. Pelé was a Wunderkind in an incredible team (loaded with historically great players) in '58 - and a GOAT surrounded by brilliant (and several historically great) players in '70. You need a bit of luck (even if you're Brazilian) to have your career play out in such an era.
Also, regarding '70: I'm not one of those nutters who think such things are truly important, but in a context where people seem to be dissecting everything ad absurdum it might merit mentioning that an objective analysis of the Brazil-Italy match cannot leave out the teams' respective routes to the final. The Brazil team was spectacular (bottom line for me, personally, to make that clear) but they played under quite comfortable/favourable conditions.
Anyway - that Messi, eh?
In my opinion, no.
Germany were full of a team that had only won an Under 21 Euro championship and were vastly inexperienced. Argentina should have put them away.
Uruguay reaching the semi final of the world cup previously does not mean they were a better side than the Argue side they bested. Argentina yet again under performed. Besides, being better on paper is what equals largely to being favorites...
I disagree. Argentina were the team of that tournament till they ran into Dunga's traps. Nobody before the final expected Argentina to be lampooned in that fashion.
Fair enough. In my book, save for 2006, he and his fellow teammates have repeatedly let themselves down.
I don't think I'd still put him up in that top bracket (but then my brackets are flimsy given I've seen little of the old greats) however Ronaldo would be be brilliant in any era. Great players transcend eras and the limitations that come along with them (opportunities do too).
It's amazing how similar to Messi Cruyff's style was, even in body IQ, he knew exactly when to turn and change the body's direction when to accelerate...
This Messi was unreal. Simply unstoppable. They had to foul him every single time.
2010-11 Messi is at least as good as any player there's ever been probably.
Yea I've always maintained that Messi is far more similar to Cruyff than Maradona and their careers are very similar in many ways. Maradona for me was the Ronaldinho of the 80s with a great WC that blew up his myth.
Wasn't he the best player a lot longer than Ronaldinho was?
I'd say roughly twice as many great seasons.
That's actually an interesting way to put it even though I think Maradona was less flamboyant than Ronaldinho. On the other hand, the WC is not the only reason behind his legend, his time at Napoli is easily as impressive as anything any player has ever accomplished.
I don't agree with it, but it's fine to argue that Messi is not as good as Maradona or Pele.
However a TIER below Beckenbauer? Please, don't embarass yourself.
However a TIER below Beckenbauer? Please, don't embarass yourself.
It's impressive but not some mind blowing phenomenon. In fact in that time a lot of other Italian clubs were complaining that Napoli were trying to buy the league and they were actually more like City at that time.
ManC before spending spree league position: 15 - 14 - 9 - 10, after 5 - 3 - 1 - 2
Napoli before spending spree and Maradona league position: 3 - 4 - 9 - 11, after 8 - 3 - 1 - 2
The similarity on those six last seasons is uncanny.
Fair enough. That indeed puts some perspective on things. But I feel it still doesn't change much. If a player carries let's say Everton to a league title, it would be a one off phenomena, if they do it with Chelsea or City, it would still be quite the feat and up there with any individual achievements, just not as mind blowing I suppose.