Atletico are probably the 3rd or 4th wealthiest (or most indebted) club in La Liga but they've had 2 fourth places in the past decade and nothing higher. Looking at their players you'd think they could do more, but they're an Everton or a Spurs in terms of consistency.
Lionel Messi
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I think that's the crunch for me too. Looking at the headline numbers the games sound like walkovers, and some of them certainly are (particularly if Barcelona score early) but most of them are genuine matches. On the last day of last season the only team that knew its position in La Liga was Valencia and every match had a bearing on a trophy, a European place or relegation.
So we can argue it's dull for foreign neutrals but foreign neutrals actually want to watch Barca and Madrid, with maybe the occasional nod to another top 4 clash. Just as foreign neutrals want to watch United and Chelsea (or in the past United and Liverpool, or United and Arsenal)
No matter how uncompettitive LaLiga is, the national team is still thriving because of the amount of talented Spanish players
If The Prem is the best/most competitive it's mostly the foreigners that make it that way and it might explain why our central midfielder in the national team (Barry) seems to have very little technical ability whatsoever and we're playing hoofball to Carrol, completely different to how the top 4 play
If The Prem is the best/most competitive it's mostly the foreigners that make it that way and it might explain why our central midfielder in the national team (Barry) seems to have very little technical ability whatsoever and we're playing hoofball to Carrol, completely different to how the top 4 play
I'm not arsed arguing about the quality of the teams, when people don't want to discuss the fact that the 3rd place team will be 30+ points off 2nd this year, and Barcelona and Madrid have first and second sown up for the next 10 years. And no it's not the same as Chelsea and United, because we won't finish 30 points ahead of third, we very possibly won't even be the two top teams.
You can argue about the strength of teams all you want, but right now La Liga not a competitive league, or a league that's good to watch. Pisses me off. It's pointless watching La Liga now whereas it used to be pretty exciting. I just urge Barca or Real to lose these days or at least go a few goals down so their victory has to be earnt. The odd bit of Ronaldo or Messi magic doesn't paper over what is a stupidly unbalanced league.
You can argue about the strength of teams all you want, but right now La Liga not a competitive league, or a league that's good to watch. Pisses me off. It's pointless watching La Liga now whereas it used to be pretty exciting. I just urge Barca or Real to lose these days or at least go a few goals down so their victory has to be earnt. The odd bit of Ronaldo or Messi magic doesn't paper over what is a stupidly unbalanced league.
The difference with Spanish and English teams in their respective leagues is that all Spanish teams try to play open attacking football. Even when their personnel and defence are utter shit. That is why it seems all to easy for the likes of Barca.
There is definitely a small gulf in the two leagues. Maybe not in technical or natural abiliyu but overall as teams.
The premier leagues current 5th best team is top of their cl group. The current 4th best are growing into a force with some very good players in their ranks. And we have a team like liverpool loitering about mid table
Moreover its the fight the lesser teams put out in the premier league that stands out. In la liga everyone goes out and plays open attacking football, which is. bit of a joke when you defend like that. On the other hand in the premier league teams of similar ability give you no time or space.
For there's definitely a gulf. Not necessarily in ability. But in terms of organisTion, defending and being competitive.
The premier leagues current 5th best team is top of their cl group. The current 4th best are growing into a force with some very good players in their ranks. And we have a team like liverpool loitering about mid table
Moreover its the fight the lesser teams put out in the premier league that stands out. In la liga everyone goes out and plays open attacking football, which is. bit of a joke when you defend like that. On the other hand in the premier league teams of similar ability give you no time or space.
For there's definitely a gulf. Not necessarily in ability. But in terms of organisTion, defending and being competitive.
Because we're talking about the situation now Marcos, not two decades ago
How much money would you put on any team outside of Barca and Madrid winning the league in the next 5 years? In fact feck that, how much that 3rd place will be within 10 points of either of them?
Liverpool and Newcastle could and perhaps should have won the league during that time period you cited. Competitiveness doesn't boil down to who wins it in the end, it's who's fighting for the title until the end
That as well as how difficult the lesser teams make it for the top ones.
We're actually talking 2008 - which was last time Barcelona dropped out of the top 2.
How accurately can we forecast the future? When we saw Chelsea win their first PL, people were predicting it'd be years before they could be caught - it was two years. When people were admiring Ronaldo and the Galacticos at OT how many people would have predicted that the 2003 La Liga was basically the only thing Ronaldo would win in Spain?
I do think Spanish football has a big problem on its hands - you only have to look at the empty stadia (even Madrid and Barca experience this at aways) to see that even the lower entrance fees are too much for a country with 20% unemployment
However I also think that we're witnessing a freak situation in the football cycle. Had Barcelona been able to coast to last year's title (and this one) I don't think we'd have seen the outrageous points gap - they'd have rested players before CL games for example, and everyone would have nodded politely and said, "three in a row - well, they are the best." It's the simultaneous strength (and hunger) of the big two that makes it so extreme and that won't go on forever. Money or not, that's not how football works.
If the contenders had organised better maybe they could have put forward an offer that the small clubs could have gone for (Barca and Madrid have basically decided to keep the small clubs afloat). Instead they focused on how they (as individual clubs - even the group couldn't sound united) could get more money - understandable, but tactically naive.
Having another phenomenal season to back up his last few. I've taken these stats from another thread, they're his joint goals + assists count since 2006 (when he was what, 18?).
16
22
34
47
24
143 goals+assists
132 appearances
115 starts
That's simply beyond amazing.
Now I'll as again, like I did in the OP... Are we witnessing one of the greatest players ever here?
16
22
34
47
24
143 goals+assists
132 appearances
115 starts
That's simply beyond amazing.
Now I'll as again, like I did in the OP... Are we witnessing one of the greatest players ever here?
Totally agree. That's why I don't think it's nearly as good a league.
Those stats can't be right.Last season alone he scored 47 goals and I'd be surprised if he had zero assists so the number you posted should be higher in theory.
Or are you just focusing on the spanish league only ?
Without a shadow of a doubt.
We can only judge his legacy accurately in retrospect but based on his age and his career to date, he has every right to be held up alongside the very best players ever to kick a ball.
Simply put we are witnessing one of the greatest players ever. The only stick left to throw is internationals. At 23 years old he has time on his side to impact here and i'd be very surprised if Argentina don't win something major during his time playing with his national side.
Id love if someone was able to do the same for Fat Ronaldo. His record at PSV and Barca must be very similar
I'd say it was. Which is why I made the point about judging him best in retrospect.
There was a time when fat Ronaldo was justifiably compared to the best strikers ever. You could argue that the comparison is still valid but a player whose career is cut short by injuries at a young age will never be thought of as highly as someone who kept playing throughout their peak years as an athlete.
I'm assuming this is just his league stats (they were taking from the League stats thread in the United Forum).
I wonder what his actual all-up stats are for that period of time...
It is extremely good how Messi, and Ronaldo, have these extraordinary stats and neither are strikers.
Could you argue that it's almost easier for them to score goals playing the positions they do - compared to strikers - since they don't have CB's marking them? But instead are able to float in-between the lines of opposition players.
I know I'd much rather run at a FB than a CB.
I know I'd much rather run at a FB than a CB.
By that you probably mean World cup or Copa America. From what i've learnt over the years is that in Europe, the copa america isn't really held in the same regard as the Euro's (obviously). If Messi wants that particular narrow minded recognition, i.e. you can only be the best if you emulate what someone else has done, then its the world cup or nothing imo.
The problem I have with it is simple, people constantly suggest that the Argentina side with Maradonna was 'average' plus Maradonna. And then continued to say clearly Messi's not as good yet because he did nothing this world cup. Argentina in 86 conceded 5 goals over the course of the tournament, Argentina in 2010 conceded 4 in one game. Argentina need to be defensively sound (they can only dream of being as 'average' defensively as their predecessors at the moment) before that particular argument can have any bearing what so ever.
Unlike you, I can comfortably see Argentina falling short in the major tournaments, regardless of the fact they have amazing talent going forwards.
I never thought about this. Yes but I still think strikers live in the box, most chances will fall to them. Messi and Ronaldo coming from deep will give them more space and maybe this does mean they get as many opportunities as strikers.
At the end of the day if you wanna score goals you are bound to meet the CBs.
I think the freedom they are given is earned because all their talent, not everyone is capable of exploiting them as efficiently as Messi and Ronaldo are.
It could be also be argued that proper strikers aren't expected to contribute as much as them in terms of building up.
Each position has its "+" and "-" aspects.It's matter of giving the right position to the right player
Does a bear take a shit in the woods and wipe his arse with a rabbit?
I think players with their tremendous dribbling/control and pace are always going to be absolutely lethal in this position, because they will most likely beat their direct opponent when running at them.
There's no real positional discipline for them though, they don't have to provide options through the middle. They don't have to occupy a particular area and battle out for high balls/hold defenders off, etc.
They can float around where they want and generally come in from out wide, where the CB's are already tracking the forwards and forward-running mids in-case they make a break through the channel.
Last night I have a dream. In my dream, Messi is one of my teammates and we played football together with other lads on every Sunday afternoon. Being nice he also tried to have a little chat with me in the dressing room, seems really a nice lad.
Oh and we played football together in Manchester. What a dream it was.
Oh and we played football together in Manchester. What a dream it was.
You're absolutely right, I should have said each role has its "+" and "-" instead of position
His achievements for his age are stagegering, as are ronaldos. All things point to him going down as a great. Amongst the greAtest ever, its still too early to tell. The greatest do it on the biggest stage in the biggest games. Ripping through a real who get hammered by barca almost everutime they meet isn't really that. He has to consistently inspire Argentina to greatness like the best hVe. Personally wish he wasn't at barca. Would like to see him do what he is doing at a club he hasn't grown up at and thatsnot that good.
There is absolutely no debating - Messi is the world's best player, best player since Zidane and may surpass Zidane if he can win the World Cup with Argentina. End of.
And Messi didn't have a poor World Cup. He was actually his amazing self without all of the goals.
Put Messi on any team, anywhere in the world and he is the best player.
And Messi didn't have a poor World Cup. He was actually his amazing self without all of the goals.
Put Messi on any team, anywhere in the world and he is the best player.
That's not enough though to be amongst the greatest players ever. Simply being the best in your team is just not enough. You have to go the world cup and turn up big time in the knock out rounds, when it really matters. He wasn't actually very good at the world cup. All huff and puff and very little end product when it mattered. Lots of mazy runs beating players and hogging the ball which lead to little. In fact against Germany, the game where everyone blames Maradona, up til the latter parts of the game, where Germany scored for fun, Argentina were 1-0 down and had a lot of the ball. Messi had his chances to do something brilliant and inspire his team in that game but didn't.
I think he's a terrific player but like all the top players his place amongst the greats will be decided by the moments where he's expected to inspire at the biggest of stages and whether he does. Zidane wrote his own script by being the talisman for one of the greatest periods for the French national team. Lets see whether Messi can do it. I was going to say Messi or Ronaldo but I can't see Portugal ever winning anything major during his time with them.
indeed
i tried to explain this same thing a lot of times, but no one listens
argentina in 1986 had a great team with great players, the best of them was maradona, but players like valdano, burruchaga, ruggeri, enrique, pumpido, olarticoechea, giusti, batista, brown and cuchiufo where very good, in fact players like Ramon Diaz and Passarella were kept out of the team and still argentina won the world cup
Messi is the best player I've ever seen
if he's not one of the best already I'll eat my hat, I'm not having it
if he's not one of the best already I'll eat my hat, I'm not having it
Team achievements shouldn't go a long way in deciding a player's ability. If Argentina had had a manager other than Maradona, they'd have done a lot better. So does it boil down to the coach's ability to quantify Messi's achievements? It's a silly way to look at things.
Messi's moment will come in a WC if he's spared from injuries.He's too good not to perform at a level which is inferior to club football
I also think Messi's gpg would drop in Italy as well
He was decent in teh World Cup no better. Even when he plays well for Argentina, he has never met his Barcelona form imo.
like Napoli
Maybe not so much now. Serie A seems a bit more high-scoring now than it was in the 90s.
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