I'm also fairly sure the last time Ronaldo played against Liverpool he scored as well
Lionel Messi
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He didn't. Bale x2 and Benzema.
Valverde needs replacing, I don't disagree with that. You misunderstood what I was saying with that first sentence. Regardless of his shortcomings, yesterday his tactics weren't even terrible to a point where it canjustify what happened, he didn't play cowardly football either. They had 55% possession and you're pretending they're playing like Atletico and parking the bus? They had more than enough chances to score, they missed. They were compact enough defensively and organized to a good level, then made incredibly stupid defensive mistakes.
It was a mentality problem, they quite simply collectively shat their pants. For the second year in a row. There's a clear lack of on field leaders in this Barcelona team and it's a problem. They have loads of quality but no heart. Fans are rightfully pissed at everyone involved regardless of how good a player is. Pique, Alba, Messi, etc. were having incredible seasons but what happened yesterday can never happen.
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these days they're very slow "unathletic" side with some key players declining. make no mistake, Anfield is hell for every team out there but for Barca it's even worse than it's for Spurs or City. they're amazing in technical sense, but there's literally zero pace and penetration in the team and Messi is the only who can create, dribble and score from nothing. that never gets so obvious because 95% of the time Messi alone is enough to handle any team and that's basically Valverde's only plan - Messi will do everything. well, yesterday that simply wasn't going to work. Rakitic and Busq are snails, Suarez doesn't score in CL anymore, Dembele was out so that's that. Barca could count themselves lucky Salah and Firminho weren't playing.
What absolute bullshit. You would never say something like that if you had no agenda and leadership wasn't something you made out to be a trait Ronaldo has over Messi (I still disagree with that, Cristiano is not a leader by any means). And now you over-emphasize it to run your narrative just like you did with your love for off the ball movement.
Leadership doesn't provide a team from conceding four fecking goals. There's something much more substantial to blame and that's the complete lack of a concept on Valverde's part.
Me? I'm not the one saying it. Go read Barcelona forums and tell me what their fans are saying.
I guess Valverde's plans are shit away from home, as were Luis Enrique's... at home they always work though. It's a coincidence that they always shit their pants away from home, not once, not twice but over and over again.
I guess leadership and mentality are now traits that are completely irrelevant and football is played by robots instead of humans according to the ignorant people who haven't played or know about professional football to any degree. You calling anyone biased is more embarassing than it is hilarious at this point...
Saying Ronaldo isn't a leader by any means or that Valverde doesn't have any sort of concept behind his football is so stupid I don't know what to reply. Do you have any sort of idea the process a manager of a club like Barcelona goes through to implement his way of playing on the pitch?
Oh yes it fecking does. It stops them from collectively shitting their pants and they never lose that tie if that doesn't happen.
You can disagree with Valverde's tactics or selection but there's no chance at all that he got it wrong to such a degree that justifies what happened.
If Messi had insisted on playing CB this would never have happened.
Yes, leadership is important but not as significant as you are implying (and everyone knows why you are suddenly in the 'leadership is so important' camp).
No, Cristiano is not a good leader. Being a genius footballer with a strong mentality doesn't make you a leader, he's far too narcistic to be. That's part of why he's that good but publicly criticizing your team mates after a loss, being annoyed if another player scores instead of you, etc. are no gos for great leaders.
And yes, implementing a proactive playstyle at Barca would be easy for any coach out there who knows how to do it in general. The fact he plays like a coward at any given opportunity is the reason that they lose such ties when Messi has no out of this world performance.
No, Cristiano is not a good leader. Being a genius footballer with a strong mentality doesn't make you a leader, he's far too narcistic to be. That's part of why he's that good but publicly criticizing your team mates after a loss, being annoyed if another player scores instead of you, etc. are no gos for great leaders.
And yes, implementing a proactive playstyle at Barca would be easy for any coach out there who knows how to do it in general. The fact he plays like a coward at any given opportunity is the reason that they lose such ties when Messi has no out of this world performance.
Why if he scored the chance he got instead of faffing about and waiting for Matip while he was trying to shift it onto his stronger foot?
Messi defenders present: if Barca/Argentina wins, it's thanks to Messi. if Barca/Argentina loses, it's not Messi fault. It's always some else's fault: Higuain, Coutinho, Sampaoli, Maradona, Valverde, etc.
OK!
Suddenly? I've been saying that for as long as I've posted here. And I'm talking specifically about yesterday's game, not in general. Lack of mental strength was the main reason Barcelona lost that, not tactics. It doesn't mean it's the most important thing in the sport...
He doesn't do that, he used to be a bad leader for a lot of years. Now I wouldn't have anyone else to captain my team.
They've won it 3 times in the past 13 years... playing proactively for most of it. But the reason they lose is because they play cowardly football even though they dominate possession against any team in the world at any stadium?
Right. Let's see Setien, Erik ten Hag or Sarri next year then.
You really just need to look at his individual performances in said games and competions. If his team mates can't finish the clear goal scoring chances he creates it's not his fault. If he scores several important goals, but they still lose, it's not his fault. If Barcelona's defense concedes 4 goals it's very obviously not his fault. If he has a geniuenly shit game, he is obviously as much to blame as the rest of his team mates.
Like I said before, I wonder how someone like Luiz Ronaldo would be rated these days on forums like Caf. Obviously had WC success, but won more or less feck all in his club career. What a shit player he must have been to have won so little.
It’s like that with every top athlete though. Their fans will defend them to death and make excuses.
I don’t understand why it’s surprising to you?
Exactly. Usually Argentina's other players are not good enough, so that's why Messi is not performing.
Let's be honest. Messi has incredible stats and he can win games all by himself but for being the best he needs to lead teams and perform in all of them. Iniesta, Xavi, Busquests, Puyol all were amazing players at FCB and! at the spanish national team. C. Ronaldo performed in all of his Clubs and evenutally at the portugese national team (he needed several years for that though.
It's nothing to do with Ronaldo or Messi. There is just strange obsession to see giant successful teams and players fail. A lot of people take very twisted pleasure in it. It was with us when we were dominating and how it was all down to refs or money. Pep is a fraud the second he loses. Klopp is a serial loser. Messi is not a proper leader. If Pele and Maradona were playing today, you can be sure he would be mocked and called a fraud for not winning a fourth World Cup or Maradona for not even winning the European Cup or dribbling his way through half a team every game.
If you watched yesterday's game and somehow primarily fault Messi for Barcelona not going through, it is pretty clear you have an agenda.
It certainly wasn't Messi's best game, but he did have a number of good dribbles and passes that set up really good chances for his teammates. The Coutinho and Alba chances in particular were big opportunities. Had just one of those been scored, we would be having a very different conversation without Messi having done anything differently.
At this point it is so blindingly obvious that people have made their mind up about the whole GOAT debate, and will continue to use the latest piece of 'evidence' to back up their case. In reality 90-95% of Messi's (and Ronaldo's for that sake) meaningful games have been played. One good or bad performance changes very little.
It certainly wasn't Messi's best game, but he did have a number of good dribbles and passes that set up really good chances for his teammates. The Coutinho and Alba chances in particular were big opportunities. Had just one of those been scored, we would be having a very different conversation without Messi having done anything differently.
At this point it is so blindingly obvious that people have made their mind up about the whole GOAT debate, and will continue to use the latest piece of 'evidence' to back up their case. In reality 90-95% of Messi's (and Ronaldo's for that sake) meaningful games have been played. One good or bad performance changes very little.
The online expectations of C.Ronaldo and Messi are insane. I don't think there has ever before been placed so high scrutiny on individuals in a 11 man team game. Messi is this years CL topscorer and scored 4 goals in the QF and SF, but now he's a complete bottler because he didn't score in 1 game.
Like I said, Luiz Ronaldo and Maradonna must have been amateurs for winning so little with their club teams. Not proper leaders no.
The fair assessment of Messi (or any top player for that matter) is to say that sometimes it's also his fault. In 2012, Barca lost to a 10-men Chelsea (Terry was sent off in the first half) partly because Messi missed a penalty. Argentia lost to Chile partly because Messi missed a penalty. Argentina was almost eliminated from the most recent world cup partly of Messi's miss against Iceland, etc. It's OK to say that sometimes he doesn't perform (and, again, this also applies to other players).
Besides, think about the past three seasons of Barca in the UCL: 0-4 against PSG (still without Neymar), 0-3 against Juve (0-0 in the second leg), 0-3 against Roma and yesterday 0-4 against Liverpool (without Salah and Firminho). Now, what do all of these games have in common? Well, not just bad losses for Barca, but also failing to even score a goal. That is not the fault of the defense. It's the fault of the attacking players, including Messi (in 2017, they didn't score a single goal in 3 of the 4 games that they've played in the Knockout stages despite having a younger Messi, a younger Suarez and Neymar). So, yes, sometimes it's Messi's fault just like others.
I completely agree. That is why it's fair to assess players by their individual performances in said matches. Barcelona conceding 4 is not his fault. You can fault him for not scoring a goal, but he was Barca's most creative player and without him they would not be going into the 2nd leg with a 3 goal advantage.
Real madrid did not last years CL final because Ronaldo was demonstrating his skills and leadership, but mainly because Karius had the worst performance of a goalkeeper ever in a major final.
In a 11 men teamsport it's simply not possible to single out Messi or Ronaldo whenever their teams don't win.
We lost possession against Liverpool at home
We beat them yesterday, but the action zones were like this
Ter Stegen, Pique, Busquets, Alba, Lenglet, Semedo and Roberto amount for 409 of our passes
Rakitic, Coutinho, Messi, Suarez, Vidal, Arthur, Malcom for 217
The amount of games this team has dominated in the last 2 years against top 4 teams in any league can be counted with the fingers in one hand, we won 0-3 at the Bernabeu but with 52% ball control, this side is competitive, not dominant.
Edit: Compare it to what we should strive for, the 2011 UCL final
68% possession
20% in our third
Midfielders getting more passes than defenders
It's the same with Argentina, any team that "dominates possession" and has more passes between DC's and DMC than CM's and Forwards is just a bad imitation of how that style has to be played.
Like shoving 6 defenders in a starting 11 and expecting a good defensive performance from them just because that's part of a "parking the buss" successful strategy, Arsenal vs Valencia is an example of that.
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Barca's loss is 90% on Valverde, and 10% on Alba, Busquets, Suarez, Coutinho, Dembele, etc. Barcelona got dominated at the Camp Nou, lost possesion and conceded a shitload of chances, and what does Valverde do? Play with the same exact XI, except this time away from home and against a team that was going to press twice as hard.
Thats all on Valverde. Thats his setup, he played a bet and he lost, but it was clear the way the game was going to go the time i saw Barca's XI. It was going to be a change of punches, a boxing match, except Valverde was probably expecting a 2-1, 3-2 loss or something like that but he lost that bet.
The only thing Messi did was give his team hopes of winning with that legendary individual performance on the first leg. Hell, it could have been a 4-0 if that Dembele kid hadnt completely ruined 2 clear chances. Messi was the only reason Barcelona were ver close to reaching the final. Even yesterday, the chances Barcelona had were trough Messi's legs.
He is the GOAT, but he is no God. He cant simply snap his fingers and make his defense and midfield start playing great, nor can he coach his teams to a great tactic. Yesterday Liverpool has Karius instead of Allisson and Messi scores 2 and assists 2. Thats football, no player has ever won by himself, not a single one doesnt matter what some people twist the story into.
Thats all on Valverde. Thats his setup, he played a bet and he lost, but it was clear the way the game was going to go the time i saw Barca's XI. It was going to be a change of punches, a boxing match, except Valverde was probably expecting a 2-1, 3-2 loss or something like that but he lost that bet.
The only thing Messi did was give his team hopes of winning with that legendary individual performance on the first leg. Hell, it could have been a 4-0 if that Dembele kid hadnt completely ruined 2 clear chances. Messi was the only reason Barcelona were ver close to reaching the final. Even yesterday, the chances Barcelona had were trough Messi's legs.
He is the GOAT, but he is no God. He cant simply snap his fingers and make his defense and midfield start playing great, nor can he coach his teams to a great tactic. Yesterday Liverpool has Karius instead of Allisson and Messi scores 2 and assists 2. Thats football, no player has ever won by himself, not a single one doesnt matter what some people twist the story into.
Yes, I agree with all of that.We lost possession against Liverpool at home
We beat them yesterday, but the action zones were like this
Ter Stegen, Pique, Busquets, Alba, Lenglet, Semedo and Roberto amount for 409 of our passes
Rakitic, Coutinho, Messi, Suarez, Vidal, Arthur, Malcom for 217
The amount of games this team has dominated in the last 2 years against top 4 teams in any league can be counted with the fingers in one hand, we won 0-3 at the Bernabeu but with 52% ball control, this side is competitive, not dominant.
Edit: Compare it to what we should strive for, the 2011 UCL final
68% possession
20% in our third
Midfielders getting more passes than defenders
It's the same with Argentina, any team that "dominates possession" and has more passes between DC's and DMC than CM's and Forwards is just a bad imitation of how that style has to be played.
Like shoving 6 defenders in a starting 11 and expecting a good defensive performance from them just because that's part of a "parking the buss" successful strategy, Arsenal vs Valencia is an example of that.
Just saying that it's not some catenaccio negative football Atletico style like he was saying. Valverde is a cautious manager, he doesn't fit into the typical Barcelona philosophy but he's not really a negative defensive manager.
His performance was actually quite good he just didn't manage to score, he keeps having to drop deep and pick up the ball and was not able to receive the ball in threatening positions to make it count
"All of Barcelona's eight shots on goal against Liverpool were either taken by or directly created by Lionel Messi. "
He was also Barca's highest rated player on whoscored with a 7.2 in the match
"All of Barcelona's eight shots on goal against Liverpool were either taken by or directly created by Lionel Messi. "
He was also Barca's highest rated player on whoscored with a 7.2 in the match
Barcelona is Argentina 2.0
Very much like CR7's exit from the CL this season, I can't fault Messi for Barcelona's failures. He's done his part in both legs as far as I'm concerned. As the video above shows, he created or took all 8 shots on targets. Sometimes, you can be the main reason why your team wins without necessarily being the main one for why they lose; it's not that outlandish of a concept.
You'd think it is though, looking at the past few pages of this thread.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is life." - Jean Luc Picard.
He missed a guilt edge chance to kill the tie and hasn't turned up once in 5 years for barcas most important games.
That shows a lack of metal when it matters most.
If Suarez and the other play score from those chances he laid on a plate would you then say he turned up?
Was the 1st leg not an important game. This is such a strange way of judging players.
We’re Ronaldinho,Zidane, Henry and the greats from the years before judged with the same criteria Messi and Ronaldo are? It’s mind boggling. If you miss a chance you’re a bottler in this day and age. This is what happens when you become obsessed and follow players rather than clubs. You become blind and biased.
Firstly, gilt-edge and mettle.
Second, he was Barcelona's best player last night and every other game in this CL run. He showed up, only people with an agenda can lay blame on him for Barcelona going out last night.
I remember Sergio Ramos saving Madrid many times, or Di Maria and Bale in a couple finals
Ronaldo and Messi both saves their clubs almost every game, but there's literally no one else in Barcelona to produce something when he doesn't show up. It's not like in 2015 where Suarez for example created goals out of nowhere vs PSG, which is the first example that comes to my head
I'd say barcelona finishes 3rd or 4th in La Liga if Messi does not play
Neymar vs PSG?
Also in the first part of 15/16, Neymar and Suarez were both in devastating form in la liga when Messi was out injured with Madrid floundering under Benitez.
They even beat Madrid 0-4 at the Berneabeu largely without Messi.
That season Suarez finished as the pichichi and with 59 goals in all competitions. Nobody at Madrid was anywhere close to that dominant outside of Ronaldo. Even then Barca still only finished 1 point ahead of Madrid and with Suarez scoring a hat-trick on the final day. They wouldn’t have won the league without him. Neymar has also scored 40 odd goals for them within that period. Only in the past 2 seasons at best could you say Messi’s teammates have diminished in impact when he isn’t performing; but they still won a Classico emphatically this year without him.
Not surprised at all. Barcelona were A) a joke in defence and B) absurdly reliant on one man. I'm afraid no single player can everything. He's not a superhero just like past greats despite what some here would have you believe
Not really. When barca needed him most he didn't turn up. In the last 20 minutes he did nothing just walked around. That is when was needed most. That's when they needed a clutch Messi moment. Yet in the last 5 years he hasn't turned up. At some point you stop blaming everyone else.
Did you miss the piles of trophies Barca have won in the past 5 years, mate? Or Messi carrying the team on his back for those 5 years?
If Suarez or Alba bury that chance, you wouldn't be saying this.
Messi was poor in the 2nd leg last year at Rome. He didn't offer much.
However, he was clearly a threat at Anfield. And if Suarez had his shooting boots on(which he clearly no longer does in the Champions League - his record in the past 3 years is pitiful), Messi would be hailed a genius for another extraordinary pass.
One man can't win it on his own against a team full of momentum.
I agree he didn't do enough in the last 20 minutes and he should have been pressing and coming deep to retreive the ball not walking on the edge of box surrounded by Liverpool players. Messi is a sulker when the chips are down and it is a slight on his character but I find it hard to blame him when he was the best player on the pitch for the proceding 160 minutes.
When Liverpool scored the third, he collapsed.
Can't blame him. The worst had happened. And he was let down by his dear friend Suarez.
Can't blame him. The worst had happened. And he was let down by his dear friend Suarez.
his 3rd "Pichichi" in row and also the biggest difference between the first and second - ever. unless Mbappe scores 4 in his last game, he'll win the Golden Shoe as well.