Lionel Messi

[Cait Sith]

Barca's main problem is that in their current state, Messi is the only edge they have over other top teams. on paper, their first 11 should play great football even without Messi. in reality, they're simply managed so badly that winning against those teams requires him being on his goat level most of the time. Klopp put Milner and Henderson in midfield and destroyed them even without Firminho and Salah. can anyone imagine Valverde having similar absences and doing the same to them? Barca have no system and they have the worst coach among top clubs, but they certainly have the players of required quality. it's just that their potential is being wasted under Valverde. Klopp would win la liga with their current squad, with or without Messi. I'd bet my life on that.

Here is why I disagree strongly.

Liverpool is at that level for 2 years in the past 20 years. Barca is at those heights for about 15 years straight now. Since winning the CL in 06 they haven't gone more than 2 seasons in a row without winning either the league or the CL. Not even Klopp would make serial winners and 30 year olds like Pique, Busquets, Alba, Suarez and Messi run like madmen who haven't won a trophy in 20 years and I rate Klopp as the #1 coach in the world. Not everything is about tactics in football. There is also something called momentum and many other factors.

To call Valverde the worst top coach is ridiculous. Tuchel gave away a 2 away goal lead at home to some Man United kindergarten team yet he is still a tactical mastermind. Valverde loses 3-4 to the best Liverpool in 2 decades at their peak to which even Man City lost 1-5 last season and he is garbage. Okay then.

There is no way Barca finish 4th or something without Messi just because they unluckily won 1 of their last 3 games at the beginning of the season with their entire frontline injured after a shitty preseason marketing tour around the world. Valverde got Athletic Bilbao to CL places and that was a team consisting only of local players (and the best ones like Javi Martinez, Llorente, Herrera they kept losing).

The disrespect toward Valverde is over the top. Barca are in a transition period right now. Messi, Suarez, Busquets, Pique, Rakitic, Alba will all not be there in max 2 - 3 years anymore.

All things considered he is doing a fine job. 2 leagues in a row and CL semis (Pep still dreaming of that with City). Bottling CL away games looks bad but hasn't started under Valverde. Before Valverde they lost 0-4 to PSG and 0-3 to Juventus.

 

[Daysleeper]

Really? because before they played in Barca every single one of those players were doing quite fine without Messi before.

OBVIOUSELY Messi will make a difference on any team and his absence will be felt on any team he is the second best player in the world and of his generation and a player like that can't be replaced but to say a team full of World class players like Barca have would get 4th or 5th is absurd. They would still conformably challenge for La Liga with Atletico and Madrid.

They look HORRIBLE without him. Griezmann has never scored at camp nou in his entire career.

Maybe after several months without him they’d figure something out, but they lack creativity without Messi but hopefully Griezmann helps with the scoring with Suarez if Messi isn’t around.

I do think they would be a distant third probably closer to fourth

 

[Mb194dc]

So if Barcelona just drop Messi and play on the counter attack in key CL away games, no problem?

They won't lose 4 0 to Liverpool B, 4 1 To Roma, 4 0 to psg, 3 0 to Juve?

Messi doesn't suit a team that don't want the ball. He's a liability in fact as can't run enough.

Argentina result against Mexico was interesting as well. Are they better without the big stars in the team? More balanced and more of an actual team.

Be interesting to see what Barcelona do for big away CL game, if they have big lead already like last two years.

 

[VanKenny]

So if Barcelona just drop Messi and play on the counter attack in key CL away games, no problem?

With Messi, Barcelona was 1 goal away from reaching the final. Remember how Messi gave a 10/10 absolute masterclass performance on the home leg at Camp Nou, hes literally the only reason they won, and the fact that they won by 3 goals its just a combination of bad luck from liverpool and a Messi's legendary performance. In fact it would have been 4-0 if Dembele didnt miss in front of goal at the last minute, which is one of the worst misses ive seen by a football star ever. Messi gave that pass btw. If Barcelona for whatever reason had rested Messi on that game at Liverpool, the game would have probably been over by halftime since there wouldnt have been a Messi to worry about.


So if Barcelona drop Messi in key CL away games, they wont score shit and will still concede silly goals. Just to imagine a front three of Salah, Mane and Firmino running full throttle against a Barcelona's defense, without Liverpool needing to worry about Messi gives me chills, its just laughable to think that Barca would stand a chance TBH.


Messi is at the top of every single chart offensive-wise. Free kicks, shot accuracy, goals, assists, pre-assists, dribbles, key passes, chances created, absolutely everything by a huge margin. Its laughable to think that any team in the world would be better off without Messi, it literally doesnt make sense in any way whatsoever.

 

[SportingCP96]

Van Dijk may be winning the Balon d'or but that doesnt make him the best player in the world mate. Even Van Dijk himself has admitted that Messi is the best player in the world.

Ronaldo. No one in the world is better than Ronaldo and Messi. Neither is anyone close to them.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Have you seen Barca without Messi? They’ve only won once in their last 7 without him

You are making this judgment way too early, based on a few early season games mix with a number of pre-seasons or end seasons meaningless matches. Yes of course Barca would be affected without Messi, in fact really need at least a lot more than few games to understand the impact. But competing at 4th or 5th is a totally ridiculous statement. Even without Messi they are probably still top 4 most expensive team in the world, unless you really think their players are as bad as ours.

 

[NoLogo]

I just find it funny how bad Barca looks if Messi isn't playing. They are bog average without him, should he really leave at the end of the season they are royally fecked.

 

[Son]

I don’t even know why people debate about Messi still and his impact on Barcelona.

He has been the best player in the history of the game playing for Barcelona.

Should win the Ballon D’Or this year. He was sensational last season. One of his vintage years. Playing from deep and scoring over 40 goals and alongside Toni Kroos he was probs the best playmaker on the planet last season too.

Kroos is a good example why the Ballon D’Or isn’t about actually the best players. He’s better than Modric on almost a weekly basis yet hasn’t come anywhere near the award.

 

[Daysleeper]

You are making this judgment way too early, based on a few early season games mix with a number of pre-seasons or end seasons meaningless matches. Yes of course Barca would be affected without Messi, in fact really need at least a lot more than few games to understand the impact. But competing at 4th or 5th is a totally ridiculous statement. Even without Messi they are probably still top 4 most expensive team in the world, unless you really think their players are as bad as ours.

They’d finish 3rd or 4th in the league but I’m willing to cool off until we see more games

 

[B20]

Ronaldo. No one in the world is better than Ronaldo and Messi. Neither is anyone close to them.

Ronaldo is gone from that discussion. He's part of the pack by now.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Ronaldo. No one in the world is better than Ronaldo and Messi. Neither is anyone close to them.

Nope a few players on Ronaldos level now.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Ronaldo is gone from that discussion. He's part of the pack by now.

This.

 

[Bennz McCarthey17]

Nope a few players on Ronaldos level now.

Who are these players? I'm so so interested to know.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Jesus Christ, are you people going mental? I didn't even give my opinion on Messi or how much influence he has... You can't disagree about what I said because what I said are literally facts, not opinions. Messi's been the best player in the world for the past year, I've argued he deserves the Ballon D'Or when many don't and yet I'm the biased idiot for that post in which I put some sense into a clearly wrong statement?

Why are you lot angry at me literally listing the lineups used in those 7 games? I just made a simple point: How are 7 games without Messi in which they pretty much rested their whole starting eleven proof of how well they'd do over a season if he was the only player out?? Explain it to me. Please, for the love of God, explain it to me. Wouldn't winning 5-1 against Real Madrid without Messi and all the other players actually playing be a better game to get conclusions on this topic rather than 7 games where they played Todibo, Wagué, Boateng, etc.?

And if noone actually disagrees with the point I made, which seems to be the case, then someone explain to me why these posts and personal attacks even exist? Because you're angry I gave more context to a stat that was blatantly out of context? The hypocrisy of getting called biased and pathetic while you're angry at me for literally listing some lineups is truly remarkable.

I'll patiently wait for an apology and a thank you for having made you a more informed person.

I agree with your point - saying without Messi that Barcelona have only won 1 game in 7 doesn't paint the whole picture as in some of those games they rested most of their first 11.. but it is hilarious that you actually spent time looking up Barcelona starting line-ups from last season and it's even more hilarious to pretend it has nothing to do with your worship of Ronaldo

When is Messi back from injury? Barcelona are so boring without him.

 

[SportingCP96]

Ronaldo is gone from that discussion. He's part of the pack by now.

We must watch 2 different sports.

 

[SportingCP96]

Nope a few players on Ronaldos level now.

Based on what exactly? The absolute disrespect is laughable.

I cant wait to quote this in a few months.

 

[MrEleson]

Playing from deep and scoring over 40 goals and alongside Toni Kroos he was probs the best playmaker on the planet last season too.

Do you even have a clue of what you're saying or just passing baseless comments?

 

[SportingCP96]

Do you even have a clue of what you're saying or just passing baseless comments?

You will see a lot of that in this thread.

 

[Bole Top]

You will see a lot of that in this thread.

you started it first tbf

 

[SportingCP96]

you started it first tbf

How? By saying that Messi would make a difference on any team? By saying that the players who are playing in Barca were stars on the team they played before? Or by saying Ronaldo and Messi are the two best players in the world and then there is everyone else? I don’t know if you have me confused with another poster

 

[Bole Top]

How?

Van Dijk may be winning the Balon d'or but that doesnt make him the best player in the world mate. Even Van Dijk himself has admitted that Messi is the best player in the world.

Ronaldo.

 

[SportingCP96]

Based on last season Ronaldo was not the best player in the world.

But in general the two best players in the world are Ronaldo and Messi.


Just like Modric won the balon d or last season when he isn’t even a top 3 player in the world.

That was my point. I am not saying Ronaldo should win the balon d or this season if that’s how you understood it.

 

[Bole Top]

That was my point. I am not saying Ronaldo should win the balon d or this season if that’s how you understood it.

fair enough, that's exactly how I understood it. I guess nobody's crazy enough to suggest something like that

 

[SportingCP96]

fair enough, that's exactly how I understood it. I guess nobody's crazy enough to suggest something like that

Based on last season no he does not.

But him and Messi are still in a league of there own compared to everyone else.


In terms of Balon d or this season Messi would be my vote BUT after Modric won it last season because they decided to just hand out the award I would not be surprised if VVD won it

 

[VanKenny]

Ronaldo. No one in the world is better than Ronaldo and Messi. Neither is anyone close to them.

You meant freakin Ronaldo? For a second there i thought "this guy really thinking somebody like Neymar or Salah is better than Messi? Oh yeah, its Van Dijk because of the Balon D'Or".

Ronaldo never even crossed my mind


But you do you my man.

 

[SportingCP96]

You meant freakin Ronaldo? For a second there i thought "this guy really thinking somebody like Neymar or Salah is better than Messi? Oh yeah, its Van Dijk because of the Balon D'Or".

Ronaldo never even crossed my mind


But you do you my man.

So you think Salah and Neymar are better then Ronaldo I truly hope I read that wrong because then this thread is fecking mental.

If anyone thinks Ronaldo is now “out of the top 2” has the football intelligence of a rock. FFS the things you read on the internet.

 

[VanKenny]

So you think Salah and Neymar are better then Ronaldo I truly hope I read that wrong because then this thread is fecking mental.

If anyone thinks Ronaldo is now “out of the top 2” has the football intelligence of a rock. FFS the things you read on the internet.

Coming from someone who just named Messi "the second best player in the world", thats quite something . The difference between CR7 and the rest its much, MUCH smaller than the difference between Messi and CR7.

I knew who you were referring to on that post because its obvious coming from someone with "Sporting" on its username, i was just giving you a hard time. You calling Messi the second best implying that CR7 is better, its JUST as ridiculous as me calling Neymar or Salah better than CR7. The funny thing is, you were serious about your claim, but i was just joking, and its even funnier when you realize that even if i was just joking, i have a better case arguing my point than you have arguing yours.

 

[wr8_utd]

If there are people actually trying to make a case for Barcelona being better off without Messi, they clearly don't or haven't been watching Barca play. His influence on the team is incredibly unmatchable. The only person who could have come into this team and shared and even taken over both the creative and goal scoring burden would be Neymar. After Messi, their most creative player has been Alba and that says it all about how much of a creative impact or consistency the likes of Coutinho and Dembele have shown. Whether it's goal scoring, creativity or just the simple game sense to make runs to the edge of the box when Alba is about to make a cutback is something no other player at this club has or can do. Suarez is way past his best and he needs Messi to create for him and Griezmann is going to be stuck being played out of position so Suarez can play up top.
They may still win around 8-10 games at Nou Camp without Messi but in bigger games and/or tight away games, they're absolutely lost without someone like Messi to unlock defenses or just score wonder goals out of the blue.

 

[SportingCP96]

Coming from someone who just named Messi "the second best player in the world", thats quite something . The difference between CR7 and the rest its much, MUCH smaller than the difference between Messi and CR7.

I knew who you were referring to on that post because its obvious coming from someone with "Sporting" on its username, i was just giving you a hard time. You calling Messi the second best implying that CR7 is better, its JUST as ridiculous as me calling Neymar or Salah better than CR7. The funny thing is, you were serious about your claim, but i was just joking, and its even funnier when you realize that even if i was just joking, i have a better case arguing my point than you have arguing yours.

saying Ronaldo is better is ridiculous why?....because you say so? Ronaldo has more then proven his case on why he is the best but this isn’t the correct thread to engage in that debate.

It also was not a “diss” towards Messi. He has done a great job in being able to compete with Ronaldo in Ronaldo’s era, there is no shame in being second to a guy like Ronaldo who is a complete freak. Messi has a period where he was better no doubt but in the context of a whole career it is obvious which is better.

Even then it can be subjective. The third best player in the world is still miles behind a 35 year old Ronaldo who hasn’t skipped a beat...at 35 I don’t think we will be able to say the same....time will tell.

 

[Righteous Steps]

saying Ronaldo is better is ridiculous why?....because you say so? Ronaldo has more then proven his case on why he is the best but this isn’t the correct thread to engage in that debate.

It also was not a “diss” towards Messi. He has done a great job in being able to compete with Ronaldo in Ronaldo’s era, there is no shame in being second to a guy like Ronaldo who is a complete freak. Messi has a period where he was better no doubt but in the context of a whole career it is obvious which is better.

Even then it can be subjective. The third best player in the world is still miles behind a 35 year old Ronaldo who hasn’t skipped a beat...at 35 I don’t think we will be able to say the same....time will tell.

Ronaldo scored 21 goals in 31 league games last season, Messi is in a class of his own, its tedious comparing them, Messi had another alien season across the board as an attacking player.

 

[SportingCP96]

Ronaldo scored 21 goals in 31 league games last season, Messi is in a class of his own, its tedious comparing them, Messi had another alien season across the board as an attacking player.

New league new team new coach new tactics in a team that is not attacking at all. This season already at 6 in 4 games and I would bet he gets a minimum of 40.

Messi has played a safe career in Barca and until he proves to be the same player outside of them and the Spanish league this convo is Pointless. He hasn’t shown it and he won’t. Ronaldo will be 38 and still bang in 25 goals a season 2 completely different animals

One played his whole career in 1 team and his best period was in the greatest team of all time with arguably a top 3 coach of all time.

Ronaldo dominated England wins a CL there. Goes to Spain dominated Spain and wins a FOUR CL there including a 3 peat with him being the MAIN reason for said accomplishment. He then moves to get another league and team and I would bet my bottom dollar he wins another CL with Juve. Unparalleled.

Ronaldo in Portugal? The same animal he is at club level and will break the all time goals record with over 100 something goals. Ohh and he was the main reason Portugal step foot in a second ever European final and wins a unprecedented Trophy in the history of Portugal. He was also one of the main reasons they got to there first ever final with a tender age of 19.

This in fact is tedious and is the definition of murder with words, Messi will go down as the second best players of this generation and that is a great feat in general so hats off too him.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Coming from someone who just named Messi "the second best player in the world", thats quite something . The difference between CR7 and the rest its much, MUCH smaller than the difference between Messi and CR7.

I knew who you were referring to on that post because its obvious coming from someone with "Sporting" on its username, i was just giving you a hard time. You calling Messi the second best implying that CR7 is better, its JUST as ridiculous as me calling Neymar or Salah better than CR7. The funny thing is, you were serious about your claim, but i was just joking, and its even funnier when you realize that even if i was just joking, i have a better case arguing my point than you have arguing yours.

That is absolute rubbish

 

[CosmoKramer]

Messi saves our bacon because he's good enough to be vertical in a passive team by beating 2 or 3 defenders by dribbling, or two lines of pressure with a pass, and he does it so consistently well that he doesn't fuel a lot of counter attacks by failing in those actions. When Coutinho, Dembele, Suarez or sometimes even Rakitic does it, we get toast at the back because they give up easy counters. But that's not on apathy of Messi running the show and the team delegating on him, it's on a bad tactical job from the manager.

This is the truth. Especially the bolded part.

It's sad how Valverde, with a squad of players better than all but 1 or 2 teams, can't seem to coach them to cope without him. Not to mention that not one player has become better under his tutelage, they all seem to regress one way or another. The fact that he still has a job after 2 years of showing what a limited coach he is, is madness but not surprising, unfortunately. The only entity which is even more incompetent than Valverde is the board.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

That is absolute rubbish

Yep. Very mind boggling claim

 

[Son]

Do you even have a clue of what you're saying or just passing baseless comments?

Stats wise Kroos was incredible. He hit 150 long balls last season with a 88% success rate and averaged 93% passing accuracy despite hitting the most long balls in La Liga... Best playmaking midfielder in the world.

It doesn’t matter how bad his team were last year, he set a ridiculously good standard no midfielder in any of the top leagues reached.

Messi is the best player ever too just to bring it back on topic. Judging by some of the comments in this forum I struggle to believe some of you actually watch La Liga often tbh.

 

[Gehrman]

New league new team new coach new tactics in a team that is not attacking at all. This season already at 6 in 4 games and I would bet he gets a minimum of 40.

Messi has played a safe career in Barca and until he proves to be the same player outside of them and the Spanish league this convo is Pointless. He hasn’t shown it and he won’t. Ronaldo will be 38 and still bang in 25 goals a season 2 completely different animals

One played his whole career in 1 team and his best period was in the greatest team of all time with arguably a top 3 coach of all time.

Ronaldo dominated England wins a CL there. Goes to Spain dominated Spain and wins a FOUR CL there including a 3 peat with him being the MAIN reason for said accomplishment. He then moves to get another league and team and I would bet my bottom dollar he wins another CL with Juve. Unparalleled.

Ronaldo in Portugal? The same animal he is at club level and will break the all time goals record with over 100 something goals. Ohh and he was the main reason Portugal step foot in a second ever European final and wins a unprecedented Trophy in the history of Portugal. He was also one of the main reasons they got to there first ever final with a tender age of 19.

This in fact is tedious and is the definition of murder with words, Messi will go down as the second best players of this generation and that is a great feat in general so hats off too him.

Isn't all of this for the Messi vs Ronaldo thread?

 

[I_live_cement]

New league new team new coach new tactics in a team that is not attacking at all. This season already at 6 in 4 games and I would bet he gets a minimum of 40.

Messi has played a safe career in Barca and until he proves to be the same player outside of them and the Spanish league this convo is Pointless. He hasn’t shown it and he won’t. Ronaldo will be 38 and still bang in 25 goals a season 2 completely different animals

One played his whole career in 1 team and his best period was in the greatest team of all time with arguably a top 3 coach of all time.

Ronaldo dominated England wins a CL there. Goes to Spain dominated Spain and wins a FOUR CL there including a 3 peat with him being the MAIN reason for said accomplishment. He then moves to get another league and team and I would bet my bottom dollar he wins another CL with Juve. Unparalleled.

Ronaldo in Portugal? The same animal he is at club level and will break the all time goals record with over 100 something goals. Ohh and he was the main reason Portugal step foot in a second ever European final and wins a unprecedented Trophy in the history of Portugal. He was also one of the main reasons they got to there first ever final with a tender age of 19.

This in fact is tedious and is the definition of murder with words, Messi will go down as the second best players of this generation and that is a great feat in general so hats off too him.

Imagine being this deluded.

 

[FattyFooty]

I'm almost starting to discredit Messi due to he's desperate fan boys. They just seems to defensive. Like when a bitch get caught lying.

 

[Posh Red]

New league new team new coach new tactics in a team that is not attacking at all. This season already at 6 in 4 games and I would bet he gets a minimum of 40.

Messi has played a safe career in Barca and until he proves to be the same player outside of them and the Spanish league this convo is Pointless. He hasn’t shown it and he won’t. Ronaldo will be 38 and still bang in 25 goals a season 2 completely different animals

One played his whole career in 1 team and his best period was in the greatest team of all time with arguably a top 3 coach of all time.

Ronaldo dominated England wins a CL there. Goes to Spain dominated Spain and wins a FOUR CL there including a 3 peat with him being the MAIN reason for said accomplishment. He then moves to get another league and team and I would bet my bottom dollar he wins another CL with Juve. Unparalleled.

Ronaldo in Portugal? The same animal he is at club level and will break the all time goals record with over 100 something goals. Ohh and he was the main reason Portugal step foot in a second ever European final and wins a unprecedented Trophy in the history of Portugal. He was also one of the main reasons they got to there first ever final with a tender age of 19.

This in fact is tedious and is the definition of murder with words, Messi will go down as the second best players of this generation and that is a great feat in general so hats off too him.

Sorry to break it to you but that really won't be the case. Both are great players but Messi is rated higher throughout the football world.

 

[Posh Red]

I'm almost starting to discredit Messi due to he's desperate fan boys. They just seems to defensive. Like when a bitch get caught lying.