He had a similar start in the CL last season. And then wasn't particularly great when it was really important. He's fantastic but he has to lead Barca to another CL final and not go out in the quarters. Think they won't win it as they don't have enough energy. Spurs were crippled by injuries last night.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
This is getting so old. How is he supposed to perform on the big stage if his team doesn't make it there? He had one average to bad game last season after beating Chelsea almost singlehandedly and his team went out immediately. There hasn't been a single CL winning team in which a player stood out in every game from last 16 onwards in history. Messi was absolutely brillant against Real, Atletico and Chelsea last season, took Argentina to the WC on his own when they were on the edge of not qualifying, isn't that the big stage?
By the way, "big stage" is also a pleasantly broad term, isn't it? If Messi had scored thrice against Roma and Barcelona would've went through, nobody would have considered this "the big stage". Instead you would've read things like "great game but he needs to show it against strong opponents." Funny enough, these rules don't apply to a certain individual. Since Ronaldo scored that many goals in the final rounds, this has suddenly become the bottom line to judge a player's season on but if he doesn't and is carried by his team mates, nobody cares. That's a generalization of course and not necessarily referring to you in particular, by the way.
However, this Barca team looks great so let's see how this campaign turns out for them.
What a magical player. That dribble and the shot that hit the post was like replay.
I don't know how much of this you expect me to respond to or if you're having me believe you don't know what the big stage is, but performance, no matter how great, is always measured against what a player is up against and in this instance, it was a discombobulated spurs 2nd midfield, which should draw an objective pause.
Those passes were incredible, but they'd be regarded even more highly in the latter stages of competition against significantly better midfields than that.
For what it's worth, that's the best single player performance of the season for me, but that doesn't mean I will lose sight of context.
That very well may be true, but it could also be argued that defenders were much, much slower back then, and defending in general (both collective and individual) was much worse, not to mention goalkeeping, which IMHO is the position that has improved the most over the decades. So, yeah, defenders were probably more aggressive, and referees more lenient 2 or 3 decades ago, but I'd say that's about the only defensive aspect of the game which was "harder". In other words, most great defenders from the 80's and 90's (let alone earlier decades) wouldn't even be able to see Messi (or Cristiano, or Mbappé, or Bale, or Rashford, or ...) run past them
Yes, but that's also because they didn't have the same benefits in nutrition, training and conditioning that modern players have. And I think it's a bit naive or shortsighted to think automatically that modern players are superior athletes per se. I do not think that the likes of Baresi or Marius Tresor with a couple of modern training and nutrition would in any way be inferior to anyone playing the game today.
And do not undersestimate how much more protected skill players are today. Some of the tackling you can see in old football games would get people charged with assault nowadays.
I'm primarily addressing you criticizing him for not showing up on the big stage in the last seson/years. If I had asked you before the rematch against Roma if the upcoming game should be considered "the big stage" I am pretty confident that you would not have seen it as such. But since Barcelona managed to lose against Rome, it suddenly became "the big stage" retrospectively. It doesn't matter that he turned up big time just one match before that against a much better opponent for you because his team lost the duel against a team you would not consider particularly great or even one of European's top teams. Again: If Messi would've destroyed Roma in the second leg (which would then have been considered a pointless match Barca had already won in the first game) and I would be arguing that this was the big stage you probably would ridicule me (and rightly so), yet now that Barca lost you claim that this indeed was the big stage.
I also don't get what you want to say with your answer since I never denied that performances against good teams should be valued higher. I was just pointing out what I see as double standards in your evaluation of what should be counted as the big stage and what not. Actually, you can say that Messi performed in every single game against a top class opponent (European top 10) last season in the league and tournaments. His team went out of the tournament against a much weaker opponent after being backpacked by Messi throughout the whole tournament before that. You can't judge him on games he didn't have the opportunity to play in (quarter and onwards).
Greatest of all time imo, i want to see him play in person.
Has he also, by any chance, played more games against English clubs in the Champions League than he has against sides from any other nation?
Great to watch yesterday, but I can't help but laugh when pundits call a failed pass by him almost perfect, whereas for most others it would just be an overhit pass. He, like Ronaldo, doesn't seem to do as much dribbling as he once did, and when he was so easily caught by Winks, I couldn't help think that he is perhaps not quite as explosive as he once was? Still, it's his incisive short passing and vision that seem to be his stand-out attributes. His long range passing is a little loose compared to Scholes and even Pogba.
That's all fine and dandy, but he still hasn't played Stoke..
Easily the best player I have ever seen play. It's not even close.
But again, you're only picking the changes in the game that suit your argument. Yes, tackling was more aggressive and refereeing more forgiving, but there have also been other defensive changes in the game. I think it's far from a proven fact that Maradona would have done what he did against the much tighter, solid and collectively solidary present day defensive systems. If we are accepting the premise that individual defense was more violent and thus more intimidating, we also need to include in the scenario the fact that defensive systems were far less advanced and much more vulnerable, because both things were true at the same time. My point is that, in general, I don't think talented players have it easier now than 30 years ago and I also think it's sort of naive and shortsighted to claim otherwise
He is a significantly better passer than both. No question
Absolutely. Even his “mediocre” games are far far ahead of anyone else’s mediocre games
I saw him this past weekend against Bilbao. Even though he didn’t start the game completely changed when he came on.
Was at Napoli-Liverpool last night, amazing crowd!
Saw him play during the Pep days against mighty Bate Borisov, came away with a hattrick, was completely untouchable. Absolute must.
I think you read my initial post incorrectly if this is your conclusion because I'm talking about the future, not the past, and didn't infer it, either. As a deeper player Messi can re-define himself in a new role, but to be par, in that role, he has to perform at a level equivalent to those who have preceded him, in that role. Specifically.
No more or less.
Messi hasn't been assessed as a deeper player over a forward, but in his latter years, he will be. It'll be another revelation if he can go on to match those of the past in the deeper roles, or even surpass them, if it's his destiny.
Are you a journalist ?
Not long range.
He's at least, at the very least, on the same level. And those were two play that came into my head. IF I have to search for them, I'll find many more.
Messi was at the top for completed dribbles last season and is shared 1st so far this season. Please don’t compare Messi’s dribbling to CRonaldo, who was barely top 100 in LaLiga.
Also, if you didn’t see that Messi was going at max 50% when Winks tackled him, you haven’t seen Messi play much. He thought he had all the time in the world.
It was a mistake by Messi who didn't feel winks coming, and also nobody shouted at messi to advice him. If Messi was aware of winks coming towards him, there's absolutely no way he would have lost the ball.
Very true. Especially on a cold and windy night. He'd have no chance.
Even more, I found this video with a compilation of Messi's long balls.
This video is from 2014, before he started to change is game and become a total player, which was after the WC in the 2014/2015 season where they won the treble.
So Messi's passing has always been there. All of us Messi fanboys have always seen it. I don't think you can improve when it comes to that kind of passing, you need to get this vision, mental quickness and on top of everything, the precision to make such perfectly weighted passes. I think you must be born with it.
Best passer in the game, best dribbler in the game and probably the best finisher in the game. Unbelievable player.
He is just a joy to watch, considering the amount of times he is fouled in a lot of games, he doesn't even look in the least bit pissed off or angry 99% of the time, just gets up, slaps hands with the guy who has clattered him, smiles and gets on with it. He was superb against Spurs last night as were Barcelona in general, although when Kane scored they really could have already been 4 or 5 up and in the end I think 4-2 flattered Spurs.
Great game to watch, though.
Great game to watch, though.
Allow him to routinely get the ball between the lines and he’s guaranteed to have a great game. Especially since the rest of the Barcelona team were also on a good day.
Should have had Wanyama following him around all game.
It’s always the same strategy. Barcelona under Valverde make everything go through Messi, slow him down and you’ve got a great chance. Play a low block and always make sure you’ve got a midfielder on Messi, allow him to touch the ball as rarely as possible, track Jordi Alba’s runs and the threat has been reduced which is what has been continuously happening once the stakes get higher.
Obviously it won’t always work, Chelsea did it perfectly at Stamford Bridge last season but then made one mistake and Messi scored anyway. Those are things that can happen but giving him the perfect platform to thrive like Spurs did yesterday is just naive.
If all it takes is for him to take a couple of steps sideways to be able to get the ball from the midfield between the lines without any defenders near him then you’ve already lost the game.
Should have had Wanyama following him around all game.
It’s always the same strategy. Barcelona under Valverde make everything go through Messi, slow him down and you’ve got a great chance. Play a low block and always make sure you’ve got a midfielder on Messi, allow him to touch the ball as rarely as possible, track Jordi Alba’s runs and the threat has been reduced which is what has been continuously happening once the stakes get higher.
Obviously it won’t always work, Chelsea did it perfectly at Stamford Bridge last season but then made one mistake and Messi scored anyway. Those are things that can happen but giving him the perfect platform to thrive like Spurs did yesterday is just naive.
If all it takes is for him to take a couple of steps sideways to be able to get the ball from the midfield between the lines without any defenders near him then you’ve already lost the game.
That still does not change the fact that circumstances and conditions are different and as such, I'd really hesitate to claim someone is the best ever at something unless there isBut again, you're only picking the changes in the game that suit your argument. Yes, tackling was more aggressive and refereeing more forgiving, but there have also been other defensive changes in the game. I think it's far from a proven fact that Maradona would have done what he did against the much tighter, solid and collectively solidary present day defensive systems. If we are accepting the premise that individual defense was more violent and thus more intimidating, we also need to include in the scenario the fact that defensive systems were far less advanced and much more vulnerable, because both things were true at the same time. My point is that, in general, I don't think talented players have it easier now than 30 years ago and I also think it's sort of naive and shortsighted to claim otherwise
I don't understand this adolescent instagrammic need of calling someone the GOAT all the time (not reffering to you by the way. Just in general). He's the greatest player of our era and thats fine. If someone shows up 25 years from now and breaks all his records does that in anyway demean his achievement? Of course not. What Messi can do boggles the mind, but I'm sure if you ask someone who was in the stands in Råsunda Stadium on the 29th of June 1958 will tell you the same thing about Pele.
He isn't. He can be the best player in the world without being the best at everything. Scholes would shoot long range passes pin point perfectly. Messi's, like Xavi's long range passing is very accurate, and perhaps more inventive behind the defense, but they weren't able to break up play with a 70 yard pass like Scholes could, no way. Scholes would hit those passes so that the defenders could not track back - most long range passes are a bit too floaty, as is Messi's, compared to Scholes. Relax, Messi is still a better player.
I know he wasn't going at full pelt for that, but he doesn't look as fast anymore - and no, he was never amongst the fastest in the world.
FFS, most of those passes are 20 yards or less. I'm talking about LONG range passing.
One thing that sticks out for me, aside from all the obvious qualities, is the fact that he is still going strong despite the "miles on the clock" which is often used to explain the decline in players at a younger age when they have burst on the scene early or played at the top for a long time (Wayne Rooney).
Whichever of Ronaldo or Messi you rate the highest or whether you feel the need to compare them at all, there is no doubt that their longevity at the top doing what they do with the number they continue to achieve is beyond almost anything that's gone before.
Whichever of Ronaldo or Messi you rate the highest or whether you feel the need to compare them at all, there is no doubt that their longevity at the top doing what they do with the number they continue to achieve is beyond almost anything that's gone before.
Messi's the best player in the world..until Ronaldo scores.
It was too easy for him yesterday. Could have had 4 goals with a bit of luck
Exactly. I feel that’s an easy excuse to let other footballers who declined early off the hook. Messi & CR started just as early as guys like Rooney but are still going strong and are almost clocking 1000 career games (in Ronaldo’s case). It emphasises the sheer dedication they have to the game to have such extraterrestrial longevity.
Here are 77 long range passes:
If you want to see more of his passing, look here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=messi+passes
And you could argue that this is the weakest part of his game. He's a natural winger and forward, inarguably the best dribbler of his generation, and arguably the best ever, he's scored over 600 goals, yet he can drop back in front of the back four, and start pinging the ball around better than Xavi ever did. The guy is a f*cking freak.
If you went to Scholes and asked him "who is the better passer, you or Messi?", I can absolutely guarantee 100% he would say Messi. He makes passes that for any other player would be their pass of the season, or possibly career, virtually every game.
At this stage, no-one should question Messi. You could see last night that professionals who had played at a very high level were simply in awe of him and what he can do. He is a different class to anyone else. I believe that he's a different class to anyone else that has played the game. I saw quite a bit of Maradona, but Messi has more to his game, a more complete skillset, is better at the constituent parts of football, scores far more goals, and is almost inordinately more consistent.
It's almost insulting for me that some people consider Maradona better, when he scored 153 goals in European football and 34 for Argentina, whereas Messi has scored 562 for Barcelona and 65 for Argentina. Maradona had a handful of good seasons, and one strong World Cup, whereas Messi has been astronomically good for Barcelona, year in, year out, for at least 13 seasons, and has actually performed more consistently for Argentina, in a worse team.
Anyone who would question any aspect of his game at his stage either doesn't watch Messi play regularly, doesn't understand football, or is incapable of being objective.
Lol the irony of that after those paragraphs.
I don't think that he will transform in this way. At this point, I doubt that his body would be able to change from running 7 to maybe 9 km a game to 11 or possibly even 12 as he would have to as a CM. He often drops deep and essentially in these situations plays like a CM in the build up (and even manages to finish these attacks himself) but he won't be able to do the necessary legwork and ground covering required as a CM.
However, probably he won't need to do so anyway. Players like Robben and Ribery are explosive enough aged 34/35 and they were never as rapid as Messi. And even if you take away Messi's acceleration, you'll essentially have a 30-40 goals a season version of Isco who is world class himself. Many of Messi's runs and goals nowadays aren't even reliant on his speed anymore. He uses so many body feints and footwork in tight spaces and his goals ofte have more to do wih reading the game and a superb timing when making his runs. It will all depend on his motivation to stay at the top. Especially since he wasn't as disciplined as he is now in his early years, in particular regarding his eating habbits. But I think theoretically he'll be able to play his current position at least until he's 35.
Messi and Ronaldo are exeptions in that matter. They usually played all of their team's matches but never had to run as much as others. Messi averaging maybe 8 km at best and Ronaldo having to do close to zero defensive work on top of a ultra professional lifestyle plays a huge role. It is not only about fitness but also about becoming injury prone etc.
That's something that is often overlooked. Their stats are amazing but they've been enabled to produce them by being the absolute centers of teams that would be among the best in the world even without them.
It is an absolute farce that he didn’t make the final 3 for World player of the year and the Ballon D’or.
Last season and now, he is the best player in the world easily. He always looks to be on another level to anyone. Even without goals and assists.
Last season and now, he is the best player in the world easily. He always looks to be on another level to anyone. Even without goals and assists.