Lionel Messi

[11101]

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I saw a comment insinuating that Scholes was a better passer than Messi. Honestly, I had to check it wasn’t April 1st.

I get the red tinted spectacles, I really do, I also get the Ronaldo love in, which is compulsory on a UTD forum, but Messi’s passing ability is on another level all together.

His passes are incisive, direct, and often under significant pressure, and certainly more often than Scholes would have ever been.

His passes count, they are not sideways, backwards and without purpose, and penetrate defences like no other I’ve seen.

His 250+ assists reflect the importance of his passes, and the effectiveness of his passes, and ultimately how they support his team.

Because Scholes did the odd 50 yard pass, does not mean he is a better passer, or on the same level.

Come on, let’s get real here.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Opponents have a habit of sitting off him because they're scared if they close him he'll leave them for dead. You saw it against Spurs, they would close him as the ball came in but as soon as he got it under control and lifted his head they backed off a yard.

He's a brilliant passer but he often has plenty of space to pick them out.

 

[Ish]

Aargh, another Messi v Ronaldo thread, FFS.

 

[Gio]

In every knockout game he was sensational and the main factor as to why they didn't concede a goal for about 6 hours of play time.

Yeah, Mascherano was hugely influential and increasingly so as the tournament wore on, producing seminal performances in the semi and the final. The ding dong he had with Schweinsteiger in the final goes down as one of the greatest central midfield battles of all time. Both played out of their skin. Argentina were a difficult side to score against - with nobody managing at all in the knockout stages until Goetze's winner - owing to a functioning and solid defence and Mascherano plugging the gaps in front of them. Going forward they were singularly reliant on Messi's flashes of genius and he was in decisive form in the first half of the tournament, but faded in the knockout stages as Argentina effectively became a grind-out-wins-on-penalties-or-thereabouts team.

 

[Cassidy]

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Opponents have a habit of sitting off him because they're scared if they close him he'll leave them for dead. You saw it against Spurs, they would close him as the ball came in but as soon as he got it under control and lifted his head they backed off a yard.

He's a brilliant passer but he often has plenty of space to pick them out.

He is also often being chased by 1 or 2 players whist dribbling and still picks a super pass

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi at his best can dribble like Maradona, finish like Gerd Muller and pass like Xavi but to judge an individual player you judge them on how the circumstances of the game affect their performances and the way they impact the game and the teammates around them, not just on their individual ability with the ball at their feet. Football is played by 22 people.

The last 3 years should have opened a lot of eyes to the importance of adapting to different scenarios throughout a football match and I really believe Valverde building this team around Messi will be setting himself up for failure exactly the same way it happened with Argentina.

People say he does everything you want in an attacking player except heading the ball but he really doesn’t. He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional which is fine when you have the best squad in the world by a mile but not so fine when there are other teams close to your level.

There’s a reason the classic number 10 position is dying in modern football and that’s what Messi is. Teams want more versatile players who are dynamic both in the attacking and defensive phase, closing off the space between the lines has become a science for plenty of managers and you can’t really afford a passenger when you’re pressing the opposition, especially in the big games.

It is very hard to build a system around the current version of Messi and I really can’t see anything but a repeat of the past 3 years for Barcelona, even though they currently have the best squad in the world.

 

[Ish]

Messi at his best can dribble like Maradona, finish like Gerd Muller and pass like Xavi but to judge an individual player you judge them on how the circumstances of the game affect their performances and the way they impact the game and the teammates around them, not just on their individual ability with the ball at their feet. Football is played by 22 people.

The last 3 years should have opened a lot of eyes to the importance of adapting to different scenarios throughout a football match and I really believe Valverde building this team around Messi will be setting himself up for failure exactly the same way it happened with Argentina.

People say he does everything you want in an attacking player except heading the ball but he really doesn’t. He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional which is fine when you have the best squad in the world by a mile but not so fine when there are other teams close to your level.

There’s a reason the classic number 10 position is dying in modern football and that’s what Messi is. Teams want more versatile players who are dynamic both in the attacking and defensive phase, closing off the space between the lines has become a science for plenty of managers and you can’t really afford a passenger when you’re pressing the opposition, especially in the big games.

It is very hard to build a system around the current version of Messi and I really can’t see anything but a repeat of the past 3 years for Barcelona, even though they currently have the best squad in the world.

You make him sound like a liability.

 

[Peyroteo]

You make him sound like a liability.

Obviously that’s the last thing he is. I’m just saying that for all the incredible things he does and for all of the talent he has, he most definitely isn’t the perfect football player many claim he is.

 

[Semiarty]

Obviously that’s the last thing he is. I’m just saying that for all the incredible things he does and for all of the talent he has, he most definitely isn’t the perfect football player many claim he is.

I wonder if you talk about your homeboi just the same, but I would have to delve into that wankfest of a thread to find out, which I'd rather not, so I guess I'll keep assuming that you are just as critical of him as you are of Messi. Peace.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Harry Winks interview after the game. As an aside, Winks seems like a decent lad.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[wub1234]

People say he does everything you want in an attacking player except heading the ball but he really doesn’t. He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional which is fine when you have the best squad in the world by a mile but not so fine when there are other teams close to your level.

There’s a reason the classic number 10 position is dying in modern football and that’s what Messi is. Teams want more versatile players who are dynamic both in the attacking and defensive phase, closing off the space between the lines has become a science for plenty of managers and you can’t really afford a passenger when you’re pressing the opposition, especially in the big games.

Player after player, manager after manager, former player after former player, former coach after former coach will all say the same thing. Messi is the best player in the world, the best they've ever seen, and probably the best player ever.

Yet according to you, "teams want more versatile players". So in your world, other teams wouldn't want to sign Messi, as he would be a liability for them! What? Sign the best player in the world, and possibly the best player ever? No, we definitely don't want to do that! Keep Messi away from our club, for God's sake!

That's leaving aside the fact that you couldn't ask for a more versatile player than Messi, who can play numerous positions equally well, who has fitted in with Barcelona wherever they've needed him, who has an unrivalled skillset, who led European football in completed passes, dribbles, assists, goals and free-kicks last season.

Also, again you're automatically blaming Messi for the one important game that Barcelona lost last season. Barcelona lost one match to Roma, so therefore it was all Messi's fault. Messi must be decisive in absolutely every single game. No-one else is ever held to these standards. No-one ever claims that Barcelona have won La Liga 7 times in the last 10 years and Real Madrid have won it twice (with Messi Spanish Player of the Year time and time again), so therefore it's all Ronaldo's fault, and he's basically a liability. Because that would be a ridiculous thing to say.

What you're doing is clutching at straws because deep down you know Messi is a better player, and you can't face what is proclaimed to be the case by virtually everyone who knows what they're talking about. It could only be straw clutching that would lead you to conclude that Messi is a 'passenger', not 'versatile', 'not what you want in an attacking player', and that 'teams don't want players like him'.

Messi is compared to Pele and Maradona now. And many believe him to be better than both of those two; I saw a bit of 'The Debate' on Sky the other day, and both Craig Bellamy and Steve Sidwell said that Messi is the best player that they've ever seen. Which is only echoing the views of many others.

It's only in your world in which a player who is regularly and widely proclaimed to the greatest of all-time is actually a liability!

 

[balaks]

Messi at his best can dribble like Maradona, finish like Gerd Muller and pass like Xavi but to judge an individual player you judge them on how the circumstances of the game affect their performances and the way they impact the game and the teammates around them, not just on their individual ability with the ball at their feet. Football is played by 22 people.

The last 3 years should have opened a lot of eyes to the importance of adapting to different scenarios throughout a football match and I really believe Valverde building this team around Messi will be setting himself up for failure exactly the same way it happened with Argentina.

People say he does everything you want in an attacking player except heading the ball but he really doesn’t. He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional which is fine when you have the best squad in the world by a mile but not so fine when there are other teams close to your level.

There’s a reason the classic number 10 position is dying in modern football and that’s what Messi is. Teams want more versatile players who are dynamic both in the attacking and defensive phase, closing off the space between the lines has become a science for plenty of managers and you can’t really afford a passenger when you’re pressing the opposition, especially in the big games.

It is very hard to build a system around the current version of Messi and I really can’t see anything but a repeat of the past 3 years for Barcelona, even though they currently have the best squad in the world.

You are insane

 

[MalcolmTucker]

His lack of work-rate can be a liability in big games, i feel. Now he's actually being rested he should be more dynamic off the ball in the big games, as we saw against Tottenham.

He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional

This is bollocks though - Barca are a possession side but it's not because Messi can't play in a counter attacking team. When Barca last won the treble he was fantastic on the counter, that team often bypassed the midfield and he was electric 'in transitions'. We saw when Tottenham lost the ball that Messi can still carry it 40 yards and get a shot off, twice and he's the best final third passer in the world, just because he doesn't get to showcase his counter attacking ability as much doesn't mean he is bad at it, get a grip. Plus I'm not even sure what you mean by holding the ball up? As in receiving the ball and keeping hold of it? Yeah Messi isn't good at that or do you simply mean playing like a 6ft2+ target man and chesting down a long ball like Fellaini? Regarding needing as many touches of the ball as possible, he's as good a one-touch player there is and is hardly ponderous on the ball ala Pogba and Neymar. There's a few things you can legitimately criticise Messi for but you've really picked out some absolutely rubbish ones.

 

[fck]

Plays well vs spurs 2nd midfield = goat.

Stands to reason.

These hyperlatives are unnecessary.

For me at least he was already the "goat" around 2010/2011 so this games changes nothing.

 

[Black Adder]

Messi at his best can dribble like Maradona, finish like Gerd Muller and pass like Xavi but to judge an individual player you judge them on how the circumstances of the game affect their performances and the way they impact the game and the teammates around them, not just on their individual ability with the ball at their feet. Football is played by 22 people.

The last 3 years should have opened a lot of eyes to the importance of adapting to different scenarios throughout a football match and I really believe Valverde building this team around Messi will be setting himself up for failure exactly the same way it happened with Argentina.

People say he does everything you want in an attacking player except heading the ball but he really doesn’t. He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional which is fine when you have the best squad in the world by a mile but not so fine when there are other teams close to your level.

There’s a reason the classic number 10 position is dying in modern football and that’s what Messi is. Teams want more versatile players who are dynamic both in the attacking and defensive phase, closing off the space between the lines has become a science for plenty of managers and you can’t really afford a passenger when you’re pressing the opposition, especially in the big games.

It is very hard to build a system around the current version of Messi and I really can’t see anything but a repeat of the past 3 years for Barcelona, even though they currently have the best squad in the world.

2 La Liga titles and one second finish, 3 Copa del Rey, 2 Supercups. The sooner Barcelona get rid of Messi the better for them, it's obvious they are doing quite poorly.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You make him sound like a liability.

I don't agree with that sort of viewpoint at all. Messi is actually brilliant at transitional play. His touch and vision ensures that. See some of Barcelona's counter attacking football in 14/15 when they won the treble. The footballer I've seen for the last decade stand out as the best on the planet, and among the greatest sportsman I've witnessed alongside Roger Federer and maybe one or two others (?) makes teams better rather than having some inherent flaws which drag his teams down.

Absolute genius.

 

[Ish]

I don't agree with that sort of viewpoint at all. Messi is actually brilliant at transitional play. His touch and vision ensures that. See some of Barcelona's counter attacking football in 14/15 when they won the treble. The footballer I've seen for the last decade stand out as the best on the planet, and among the greatest sportsman I've witnessed alongside Roger Federer and maybe one or two others (?) makes teams better rather than having some inherent flaws which drag his teams down.

Absolute genius.

Yeah, it's actually the first time I've read a viewpoint which made having Messi on your team sound like more of a negative, than a positive.

 

[Amar__]

even though they currently have the best squad in the world.

 

[Peyroteo]

Name me one team that has a better squad than Barcelona. One.

 

[Peyroteo]

His lack of work-rate can be a liability in big games, i feel. Now he's actually being rested he should be more dynamic off the ball in the big games, as we saw against Tottenham.



This is bollocks though - Barca are a possession side but it's not because Messi can't play in a counter attacking team. When Barca last won the treble he was fantastic on the counter, that team often bypassed the midfield and he was electric 'in transitions'. We saw when Tottenham lost the ball that Messi can still carry it 40 yards and get a shot off, twice and he's the best final third passer in the world, just because he doesn't get to showcase his counter attacking ability as much doesn't mean he is bad at it, get a grip. Plus I'm not even sure what you mean by holding the ball up? As in receiving the ball and keeping hold of it? Yeah Messi isn't good at that or do you simply mean playing like a 6ft2+ target man and chesting down a long ball like Fellaini? Regarding needing as many touches of the ball as possible, he's as good a one-touch player there is and is hardly ponderous on the ball ala Pogba and Neymar. There's a few things you can legitimately criticise Messi for but you've really picked out some absolutely rubbish ones.

As in they can’t bypass the high press by kicking it long hence they have to play the way they play.

There’s no variation in style, it’s always the same.

Messi was once a great counter attacking player, he isn’t one in the slightest anymore. Every single time Barcelona get a numerical advantage on the counter he more often than not either slows the play down or stops his run if he isn’t the one on the ball. He isn’t fast enough over last distances.

Dembele was incredible at it in dortmund’s system and he doesn’t get to show it for Barcelona. Argentina were suited to play a counter attacking game and they’ve been playing zombie passing football for the past few years.

When I say he needs as many touches as possible, it’s not that he takes too long on the ball like Neymar or Pogba, it’s that his impact on the game will depend a lot on how many times he gets it. Which is why man marking him as been so effective especially when Barcelona’s attack has become so Messi-centric.

Messi makes a difference 99% of the time with the ball at his feet. Barcelona being so possession-oriented benefits him a lot but it won’t always benefit the team who could really do with different approaches to games sometimes.

I’ve never said Messi was a liability, for fecks sake. He’s a top 5 player in the history of the sport. I’m just saying he isn’t perfect nor is the way people seem to rate him accurate with the impact he has on the game, the problem is every slight criticism and you’ve got people getting more insulted than if I had criticized their own mother.

People can continue misunderstanding my points, pretend I’m calling him a liability or whatever... but by the end of the season they don’t get to be surprised again.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah, it's actually the first time I've read a viewpoint which made having Messi on your team sound like more of a negative, than a positive.

Yeah, it's definitely a strange one. He scored most of the goals in that hatrrick that put Argentina into the WC on the counter attack as well. Some with that other worldly technical ability would be sensational on the counter.

Then again, many here believe football is actually an individual sport.

 

[Br1_ovi]

Name me one team that has a better squad than Barcelona. One.

Real Madrid. Juventus. City.

Barcelona doesn't have any replacement for Jordi Alba (only 1 left back in the squad, seriusly. Same with Suarez (who declined last season). Of couse if Messi doesnt play we are shit.

 

[Peyroteo]

Real Madrid. Juventus. City.

Barcelona doesn't have any replacement for Jordi Alba (only 1 left back in the squad, seriusly. Same with Suarez (who declined last season). Of couse if Messi doesnt play we are shit.

If Messi doesn’t play you’re shit because you’ve built a team that’s dependent on him without needing to do so. Or is a front 3 with Coutinho, Suarez and Dembele not good enough to beat Bilbao or Eibar at home?

Barcelona don’t have a leftback back up. Then you mention Real Madrid and Juventus... who are their leftback back ups?

You complain about Suarez while Madrid and Juventus start Benzema and Mandzukic... I mean, come on.

Can you imagine Barcelona fans reaction if Emre Can, Szczesny, Mandzukic, Benzema, Lucas Vasquez, Khedira, Fernandinho, etc. were regular starters? Even the likes of Aguero would get it judging by what happens with Argentina.

Barcelona have a clearly better squad than any of those 3 teams, if you’re not playing like it then Valverde is the one at fault. The fact there are people laughing at me saying Barcelona have the best squad in the world says it all at how much propaganda has been spread.

 

[Peyroteo]

2 La Liga titles and one second finish, 3 Copa del Rey, 2 Supercups. The sooner Barcelona get rid of Messi the better for them, it's obvious they are doing quite poorly.

Right... I totally said that. Great interpretation skills.

Yeah, it's definitely a strange one. He scored most of the goals in that hatrrick that put Argentina into the WC on the counter attack as well. Some with that other worldly technical ability would be sensational on the counter.

Then again, many here believe football is actually an individual sport.

It’s one thing to sit back and counter as a strategy, it’s another to win the ball high up the pitch and then counter.

Why doesn’t Barcelona ever change it up and play on the counter when it’s obvious there are times they either can’t dominate possession or it brings no advantage to them? Why are they playing the same one-dimensional football Argentina played?

Dembele was incredible at it in Dortmund, Suarez has been a master at it for Uruguay... Messi is apparently great at it. They have in Vidal probably the strongest midfielder in the word at playing in transition.. so why don’t they do it?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It’s one thing to sit back and counter as a strategy, it’s another to win the ball high up the pitch and then counter.

Why doesn’t Barcelona ever change it up and play on the counter when it’s obvious there are times they either can’t dominate possession or it brings no advantage to them? Why are they playing the same one-dimensional football Argentina played?

Dembele was incredible at it in Dortmund, Suarez has been a master at it for Uruguay... Messi is apparently great at it. They have in Vidal probably the strongest midfielder in the word at playing in transition... so why don’t they do it?

Why did LVG play boring as feck football at United? Why does Jose persist with defensive football? Managers make their own decisions for their own reasons. Why does Klopp never sit back to see out a result? Why did Pep press absurdly high against Barcelona only to get butchered on the counter?

Systemic decisions of an individual can't be explained by you and me. To attribute them to one freakishly good footballer in the side is an odd thing to do. But then again, you're absolutely the PR guy for the other so I don't see any discussion with you going anywhere reasonable so let's not even begin.

 

[Peyroteo]

Why did LVG play boring as feck football at United? Why does Jose persist with defensive football? Managers make their own decisions for their own reasons. Why does Klopp never sit back to see out a result? Why did Pep press absurdly high against Barcelona only to get butchered on the counter?

Systemic decisions of an individual can't be explained by you and me. To attribute them to one freakishly good footballer in the side is an odd thing to do. But then again, you're absolutely the PR guy for the other so I don't see any discussion with you going anywhere reasonable so let's not even begin.

Your point would make sense if it was only about Valverde... but it’s happened under several managers and Valverde’s teams in the past have always been able to change it up.

Of course the system is about Messi. Have you watched Barcelona play? Messi is the system... in modern football you cannot play any differently with a classic number 10 and you cannot take Messi out of the team because he’s the best player by a mile. It’s an impossible job.

I’ll let him do the talking on the pitch though if you don’t want to discuss

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Your point would make sense if it was only about Valverde... but it’s happened under several managers and Valverde’s teams in the past have always been able to change it up.

Of course the system is about Messi. Have you watched Barcelona play? Messi is the system... in modern football you cannot play any differently with a classic number 10 and you cannot take Messi out of the team because he’s the best player by a mile. It’s an impossible job.

I’ll let him do the talking on the pitch though if you don’t want to discuss

Don't think I've ever seen a classical number 10 score 50 goals a season. You seem to be referring to Mesut Ozil who was oddly enough excellent for Real Madrid on the counter.

He always does the talking on the pitch. But yeah discussing with you is pointless so let's leave it.

 

[Mark_Barca]

Peyroteo is the European version of Cal!

 

[Ish]

Yeah, it's definitely a strange one. He scored most of the goals in that hatrrick that put Argentina into the WC on the counter attack as well. Some with that other worldly technical ability would be sensational on the counter.

Then again, many here believe football is actually an individual sport.

Aye, it usually varies wrt which opinion/bias the poster holds, tbf.

 

[Peyroteo]

Don't think I've ever seen a classical number 10 score 50 goals a season. You seem to be referring to Mesut Ozil who was oddly enough excellent for Real Madrid on the counter.

Why does the number of goals he scores invalid the position he plays... what the hell? And did I ever said classical number 10s couldn’t be great on the counter?

Just like Messi, Ozil was once great at it too but not anymore. They cause the same limitations to their own team too in terms of style nowadays, even if Messi offers a lot more.

He always does the talking on the pitch. But yeah discussing with you is pointless so let's leave it.

Well, not always since this exact argument has been happening for 2 years and it’s always been ending the same way...

So are we going to keep discussing while you tell me it’s pointless to do so at the end of every message? I don’t have any problem arguing with you despite a full decade of love turned to hatred after Ronaldo left United so you shouldn’t have any problem arguing with me either.

 

[SteveW]

Messi basically won La Liga on his own last season. Barca were poor for large periods but he kept making the difference. No idea why people gloss over this

 

[Peyroteo]

Peyroteo is the European version of Cal!

I bring coherent points to the table to anyone who actually understands the sport, those get ignored and lead to attacks on me being biased by at least 5 different posters every single time I post anything on the subject so they don’t actually have to be argued and get undermined instead.

Is that what Cal gets too?

For all of the hate he seems to get here, the only difference seems to be that there’s one of Cal? for Ronaldo while there are 100 of him for Messi.

So yes, better not to bother anymore and let this be a thread for fanboys to wank eachother off. I’ll refrain from posting anything about either Ronaldo or Messi moving forward since it clearly does nothing but cause anger in people.

 

[Lay]

I bring coherent points to the table to anyone who actually understands the sport, those get ignored and lead to attacks on me being biased by at least 5 different posters every single time I post anything on the subject so they don’t actually have to be argued and get undermined instead.

Is that what Cal gets too?

For all of the hate he seems to get here, the only difference seems to be that there’s one of Cal? for Ronaldo while there are 100 of him for Messi.

So yes, better not to bother anymore and let this be a thread for fanboys to wank eachother off. I’ll refrain from posting anything about either Ronaldo or Messi moving forward since it clearly does nothing but cause anger in people.

Your tag line doesn’t help

 

[tomaldinho1]

Shows how differently the top players see the game to us mere mortals. Messi watching all the defenders legs, not the ball, he just knows where it is and is waiting for them to overextend.

I was a head down, hoof and sprint guy myself. It's no wonder I never made it.

 

[cesc's_mullet]

Messi is the GOAT, it's that simple. What a joy to watch

 

[MalcolmTucker]

As in they can’t bypass the high press by kicking it long hence they have to play the way they play.

This is one of the strangest points you've ever made, you're essentially blaming Messi for being too short to play as a target man. Despite the fact that isn't his position. He's a playmaker! Even if Barca wanted to play it long, why on earth would that be a job for Messi? The central striker would be the one to hoof it too, not their chief creator. Odd.

Messi was once a great counter attacking player, he isn’t one in the slightest anymore. Every single time Barcelona get a numerical advantage on the counter he more often than not either slows the play down or stops his run if he isn’t the one on the ball. He isn’t fast enough over last distances.

Every time yeah?

These are two vids I found from last season on youtube - there will be countless others examples, including a couple from the Spurs game of him counter attacking. Being able to run fast isn't the only way to be good on the counter - you act as if Messi waddling along when he is still about as quick [or quicker] over long distances as Ozil was back when he at Real Madrid (when he was 'once great').

I bring coherent points to the table to anyone who actually understands the sport, those get ignored and lead to attacks on me being biased by at least 5 different posters every single time I post anything on the subject so they don’t actually have to be argued and get undermined instead.

I think you mean well and that you genuinely believe what you're saying is true, but you have to realise that when you watch Messi, your loyalty to Ronaldo informs how you interpret it. Every moment is refracted through a Portuguese prism and it comes out distorted; do you really think the two points of yours I've addressed in this post are coherent? Try and take a step back and evaluate them for a second. Of course, you don't hold the monopoly and the same can be said about the Barcelona and Argentine fans, but most of the neutrals, like myself, will disagree with your arguments outright.

 

[Needham]

Aargh, another Messi v Ronaldo thread, FFS.

It should really be Messi v Maradona.
Check out the kind of treatment Maradona used to get.
The replay of the run he goes on at the 13 second mark alone should be enough. Just blatant attempts to hack and hurt him at every turn. Sure, Messi is a genius and would have adapted. But in that era Spanish (and Italian) football, he would not have had remotely like the free reign to receive the ball unmolested anywhere on the pitch and you could wipe several hundred goals off his total.

 

[marktan]

Messi is the goat.. untill they come across anyone good in Europe. Those last 3 years of QF exists are shocking. Beating an ok but not great Tottenham doesn't change that.

For a guy who is the most naturally gifted player around, he needs to do better in Europe.

 

[D10S_RK61]

Messi at his best can dribble like Maradona, finish like Gerd Muller and pass like Xavi but to judge an individual player you judge them on how the circumstances of the game affect their performances and the way they impact the game and the teammates around them, not just on their individual ability with the ball at their feet. Football is played by 22 people.

The last 3 years should have opened a lot of eyes to the importance of adapting to different scenarios throughout a football match and I really believe Valverde building this team around Messi will be setting himself up for failure exactly the same way it happened with Argentina.

People say he does everything you want in an attacking player except heading the ball but he really doesn’t. He limits the team to play possession football since he’s not good in transitions, at holding the ball up and he needs as many touches as possible to be able to influence the game. A team with Messi at the heart of it becomes one-dimensional which is fine when you have the best squad in the world by a mile but not so fine when there are other teams close to your level.

There’s a reason the classic number 10 position is dying in modern football and that’s what Messi is. Teams want more versatile players who are dynamic both in the attacking and defensive phase, closing off the space between the lines has become a science for plenty of managers and you can’t really afford a passenger when you’re pressing the opposition, especially in the big games.

It is very hard to build a system around the current version of Messi and I really can’t see anything but a repeat of the past 3 years for Barcelona, even though they currently have the best squad in the world.

You should have watched Argentina under Sabella, they used to be a great counter attacking team. He was involved in a goal every match and they worked perfectly during the World Cup qualifiers. During the World Cup, most of the attackers were injured or came back from injury and every team played ultra defensive against them ( except Germany, but hey guess what Argentina was really dangerous on the break and had the better chances in that game). In the MSN era, the counters used to be really really dangerous as well, there are many big games examples for that.

Over the years Messi has played as a RW, false nine and as a classic 10 for Argentina and Barcelona. He is way more adaptive than Ronaldo for example who nearly always played as a LW who plays like a second striker with the striker doing the dirty work for him.

To blame Messi for the quarter final loss last year is ridiculous. Look at the Barcelona team that played that day. It was a flat 4-4-2 with Suarez being the only offensive threat really. There was no one offering any creativity and Valverde played with a very negative approach. The difference between Barcelona and Real Madrid during the last 3 years is very simple: Real Madrid has many different game changers like Benzema, Marcelona, Asensio or Bale for example. If Ronaldo doesn´t score one of them will step up like against Bayern in the semi finals and finals last year. Since the team can advance without him having a big impact it´s forgotten and if he scores 2 or 3 goals with most of them being simple tap ins or penalties most of the time ( Please tell me this isn´t true?). With Barcelona it´s different. Suarez declined heavily in the last years and hasn´t scored in a Champions League away game since 2015 (!). And there is no one else who is stepping up really, the only way in which Alba is dangerous is the cutback to Messi which is ironically created by himself aswell. There was simply no one else who could step up.

It´s ridiculous to just blame Messi for that. The coach barely rotated the team last year since he focused on the league mainly and because of that the team seemed absolutely knackered and lost in the Champions League in April, like it did the two years before. The only thing you can blame Messi for is that he runs less than other players, but that´s it. And you can the same about Messi, too. But it´s delusional to say Barcelona has the best squad in the world when Real Madrid has a much better midfield and defense. Barcelona wouldn´t have won the final in 2014, 2016 and 2018 with Messi playing as bad as Ronaldo did. They also wouldn´t have won against Bayern last season or against Man City in 2016. But this is more about Real having the better squad and more luck in some cases, not about Messi being the problem ffs. It´s more a case of Messi masking a lot of team problems and not about him being the problem.

Every great coach of the recent years ( Pep, Mourinho, Klopp and many more) does nothing but praise him and think so highly of him. I´m really sure that this wouldn´t be the case if he would be a problem for the team. And he didn´t win 9 La Ligas, 4 Champions Leagues and reached 3 consecutive finals with a very ordinary Argentina side for nothing ( which they could´ve won with a little bit more luck, I mean they lost every game in extra time).

 

[Daysleeper]

Messi is the goat.. untill they come across anyone good in Europe. Those last 3 years of QF exists are shocking. Beating an ok but not great Tottenham doesn't change that.

For a guy who is the most naturally gifted player around, he needs to do better in Europe.

Except he destroys Real Madrid almost every time

His QF results were against teams that were Atletico (went to penalties in the final, Ronaldo didn’t score against them in regulation or ET either), Juventus (one of the best defensive teams in the world, Messi absolutely ruined them the next time they saw each other in CL) and Roma (this one was an embarrassment, can't defend him much for this one although Barca should’ve been able to defend a 3 goal advantage)

 

[wub1234]

Roma (this one was an embarrassment, can't defend him much for this one although Barca should’ve been able to defend a 3 goal advantage)

You see, this is where these threads and arguments get ridiculous for me.

Messi didn't have his best night against Roma. He had an absolute blinder in the league, he was excellent in the group stages of the CL, he scored clinically with his one chance in the first-leg against Chelsea, he ran the second-leg against Chelsea, scoring 2 and setting up 1 brilliantly for Dembele, and then played well in the 4-1 first-leg win against Roma.

Aren't the rest of the team entitled to stand up at some stage? He has one indifferent game...oh, it's all Messi's fault! That's the first thing.

Then the second thing is...imagine that game had gone the way it did, poor Barcelona performance, Roma go 2-0 up, they're vulnerable now. And imagine instead when they took the corner for the third goal, it had simply been headed away by Barcelona, they cleared the ball, and managed to hang on to win 4-3 on aggregate. Would that mean Messi is a better player than he is now? Of course not. This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

Let's say Ronaldo had exactly the same game that he did in the CL final, largely ineffective, and let's say Bale hadn't scored a brilliant goal, and Karius hadn't had a nightmare. It had finished 1-1 and Liverpool had won on penalties. Would that mean Ronaldo is a worse player than he is now? Of course not. If Ronaldo had won one more CL medal than he is now, would it make him a better player? No, it would not.

That's why using team trophies as an argument in the quality of an individual player makes somewhere between little and no sense. You have to judge individual players based on what they do, and are capable of doing, on the field of play. Not whether or not they win trophies. No individual player will ever control whether or not he (or she, for that matter) wins trophies.