I don't mind anyone thinking Ronaldo did better on that stage. He's a wonderful player and has had a terrific CL career. I just dont believe he's as good as a player that is such an absurd genius at so many things - playmaking, passing, goalscoring, dribbling, vision. It's like a computer generated attacker was build and put together to play tricks on all of us. Madness. Even aside from goals and assists his chance creation stats are incredible and a complete anomaly for goalscorers.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
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So if those metrics are right to determine the best player ever in a competition, why do you reject them when it comes to Klose exactly?
World Cup goals:
Klose - 16
Maradona - 8
I'm sorry, we can't just adapt criteria to the conclusion we want to reach for each situation. I believe raw individual production is an absurd criteria to determine who the best players are, but if you do value that criteria at least be consistent with it and don't pick and choose when to use it.
Thank you. I don't know how to like posts here (or if you even can?), but wanted to thank your acknowledgement!
Such in depth analysis there! With such conclusive data, I guess the discussion is over. Although... Messi has only 15 goals and 5 assists less, has a better ratio in both and there's a very good chance he ends up ahead on both stats when all is said and done. Will you change your opinion in the very possible scenario that happens or will those criteria become irrelevant then?
The man scored two goles in that crucial away leg you speak of. I’m not 100% sure this stat is right but i believe Ronaldo has scored every goal for juventud in knockout stages since he’s been at juve. That’s two seasons. Not sure he is the problem. Where has Messi been last 3 years? Roma away (3 goal advantage) and scored 0 goals. Liverpool away (3 goal advantage) and 0 goals, Bayern Munich and 0 goles. That being said I’m a bit advocate of Messi as being the goat but that argument you presented literally goes against him if you are comparing him to Ronaldo. He scored this year when he got eliminated and last year against Ajax as well. And last year he was down 0-2 against atm, scorer a hat trick to bring it back. Just no. If you want to talk about how great Messi is you can talk about how great of a player he is and how in my opinión Ronaldo can never be better than Messi just in pure talent (the way I see it). Now it is pretty much unarguable that Ronaldo has more mentality which makes him at least fight back when he’s down.
I’ve explained clear enough on his impact in 16/17 CL title run in the previous post, you are the one who keep on dwelling in the exact wording and description to be used. If you think “almost carried by himself” is not correct description in your standard, fine then, my point being no footballer ever carry the team in his own anyway, according to your standard. So It’s rather pointless to go any further.
Again, no need to keep on dwelling/arguing for exact wording “win all by himself”, it’s merely a description on his impact on winning, at this 35-36 age, you just can’t expect him to impact as much as he used to be in the past. It’s just common sense, no need to keep dwelling and arguing for exact wording to be used, you are a grown up man for feck sake.
And of course, losing performance count less than winning performances if they are at about the same level. Not everything have to be either black or white. For example, winning in 9/10 performance > losing in 9/10 performance, because one is winner the other is loser, but losing in 9/10 performance > winning in 5/10 performance. Because at 5/10 the player probably just has no impact on winning, chances are his teammates has bigger impact winning it. It’s just common sense, really.
Ronaldo won 5 CL with 9/10+ performance overall (he was voted tournament best player and won Ballon D’or, so even you are totally biased you can’t really claim he won it with 5/10 performance), and Messi won 3 CL with 9/10+ performance overall, hence to put it in most simplify way, Ronaldo>Messi in CL.
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Well not to mention Ronaldo was also voted tournament best player on all occasion, he won it all 5 times as tournament best player during CL winning years, Messi only win it 3 times in his CL winning years. Yeh so it’s pretty much conclusive for most people.
If Messi has won more CL, and at the same time, more goals and assists, and voted as best player more based on his CL winning performances, of course I’d think Messi is better in CL. This is the same reason why I think Messi is the best in La Liga, despite the fact that Ronaldo has better goals per games ratio in La Liga, and thats how many of Messi fans here always use La Liga titles to compare the two anyway, nothing wrong with that.
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Its open season on Messi because of Barcelona’s woes this season. End of the day he’s been the greatest player ever to put on a pair of boots.
There has never been somebody who is at his level at what counts in the sport and that is football ability. They say he can’t play in a bad side yet when Barcelona needed him he has been there more than any player in the history of football again and again. Last season he was ridiculous at times in the league and even scored a hat trick against Liverpool.
The guy literally has nothing to prove and let’s be real he proved it all before the age of 25. He could have retired then and still been the best ever to play in most people’s eyes who saw him play at his peak.
There has never been somebody who is at his level at what counts in the sport and that is football ability. They say he can’t play in a bad side yet when Barcelona needed him he has been there more than any player in the history of football again and again. Last season he was ridiculous at times in the league and even scored a hat trick against Liverpool.
The guy literally has nothing to prove and let’s be real he proved it all before the age of 25. He could have retired then and still been the best ever to play in most people’s eyes who saw him play at his peak.
The fact that you only list Messi as having won 3 CLs instead of 4 says it all really. Whatever reality you want to create in order to support your argument, you will, so while i appreciate a lot Manuel Trequete's incredibly well written and smart posts, i do feel a bit bad because you wont listen to a single thing.
Messi was a key player for Barcelona that entire season. Mourinho's gameplan for the Chelsea vs Barcelona match was leaked and posted on this very same forum, and you can read yourself how Mourinho basically focused everything on Messi and how dangerous he was. The entire tactical analysis was revolving around Messi, because at that point he was already tearing up Madrid with hattricks and scoring wonder goals every 2 weeks.
He got injured on that leg and he didnt get to play the final, but to say he didnt win that one CL with Barcelona is just an incredibly ridiculous claim that no matter how many times is said on this forum, it will never be true.
You can find the highlights of Messi vs Chelsea on youtube btw, at 18 years old being the best on the pitch against Mourinho's Chelsea... but hey, he didnt participate right?
Your previous post (before this one) was class as well. Well done for putting things across so well. It'll be wasted in this thread/topic though!
Pedro had a better assist per minute ratio in 10/11 than Xavi and Iniesta. Does that mean that he was the superior creator?
And no, I'm not implying that Xavi and Iniesta are to Pedro what Messi is to Cristiano. I am just giving you an example that "more assists" doesn't equal "created more goals".
Technically speaking, an assist is just the second to last touch in a successful attack. Cristiano in his most successful years was a player completely focused on the final third of the pitch. Not only that but the entire tactical set up intended to get him at the end of attacks so it's only natural that he has many second to last touches before the ball passed the line.
But there are so many different patterns of attacks. Throughball, square, tap in. Throughball, finish. Switch of play, cross, header. Switch of play, dribbling, through ball, finish. And so forth. If you had the last, second to last or whichever contact in an attack doesn't say anything about the quality or importance of the play. Look at Neymar's pre-assist to Mbappe before their second goal against Atalanta. Neymar won't even show up on the scoring sheet but the way he postures himself with that little feint to set the defender on the wrong foot and plays a perfectly weighted and directed no look pass.. Sure that was good off the ball movement by Mbappe and Choupo-Moting but that goal was created 90% by Neymar.
And that's the stuff you very, very rarely see from Cristiano. His role is more that of Mbappe in this scene. Make a good run behind the line, receive the ball and square/cross it for a tap in. But that he plays one of those chipped passes behind the line, a through ball, creates superiority through a dribbling or a great one two in the build up - that's not to be seen often since probably 2013. On the other hand, Messi has evolved that aspect of his game further and further to the point where there's no other player as good at that as him. The fact that he still maintains a goal record that's at least on eye level with Cristiano's, CL knockout goals aside, is actually insane.
So yeah, I do rate playmaking that highly and you're right, due to that it's not really a discussion for me. That's what I've been saying since ages and what's "ridiculous" in the eyes of many of your peers
Can you stop comparing Messi and Ronaldo to other footballers? The Ronaldo fans can only understand football if you compare them with Michael Jordan or Tom Brady and concentrate on MENTALITY, DEDICATION and CLUTCH rather than actual football moments that happen on the pitch.Pedro had a better assist per minute ratio in 10/11 than Xavi and Iniesta. Does that mean that he was the superior creator?
And no, I'm not implying that Xavi and Iniesta are to Pedro what Messi is to Cristiano. I am just giving you an example that "more assists" doesn't equal "created more goals".
Technically speaking, an assist is just the second to last touch in a successful attack. Cristiano in his most successful years was a player completely focused on the final third of the pitch. Not only that but the entire tactical set up intended to get him at the end of attacks so it's only natural that he has many second to last touches before the ball passed the line.
But there are so many different patterns of attacks. Throughball, square, tap in. Throughball, finish. Switch of play, cross, header. Switch of play, dribbling, through ball, finish. And so forth. If you had the last, second to last or whichever contact in an attack doesn't say anything about the quality or importance of the play. Look at Neymar's pre-assist to Mbappe before their second goal against Atalanta. Neymar won't even show up on the scoring sheet but the way he postures himself with that little feint to set the defender on the wrong foot and plays a perfectly weighted and directed no look pass.. Sure that was good off the ball movement by Mbappe and Choupo-Moting but that goal was created 90% by Neymar.
And that's the stuff you very, very rarely see from Cristiano. His role is more that of Mbappe in this scene. Make a good run behind the line, receive the ball and square/cross it for a tap in. But that he plays one of those chipped passes behind the line, a through ball, creates superiority through a dribbling or a great one two in the build up - that's not to be seen often since probably 2013. On the other hand, Messi has evolved that aspect of his game further and further to the point where there's no other player as good at that as him. The fact that he still maintains a goal record that's at least on eye level with Cristiano's, CL knockout goals aside, is actually insane.
So yeah, I do rate playmaking that highly and you're right, due to that it's not really a discussion for me. That's what I've been saying since ages and what's "ridiculous" in the eyes of many of your peers
Arguing with another member
Again what a stupid post.
Your comparing Maradona vs klose to Ronaldo vs Messi.
I don't need to explain to you why your post is bad. I'll just say you are effectively comparing Ronaldo to klose which in itself makes the post worthless.
The second part is Ronaldo also has the highest amount of assists which klose does not which straight away destroys any idea that yiur comparison can make sense.
Surely Messi is better creator and far better playmaker, there no question on that. For Ronaldo case he is simply more productive in CL - in terms of goalscoring and providing assist, or final ball which lead to goal - whatever you want to call it. I also think Ronaldo crossing is top class and seriously underrated by many people here.Pedro had a better assist per minute ratio in 10/11 than Xavi and Iniesta. Does that mean that he was the superior creator?
And no, I'm not implying that Xavi and Iniesta are to Pedro what Messi is to Cristiano. I am just giving you an example that "more assists" doesn't equal "created more goals".
Technically speaking, an assist is just the second to last touch in a successful attack. Cristiano in his most successful years was a player completely focused on the final third of the pitch. Not only that but the entire tactical set up intended to get him at the end of attacks so it's only natural that he has many second to last touches before the ball passed the line.
But there are so many different patterns of attacks. Throughball, square, tap in. Throughball, finish. Switch of play, cross, header. Switch of play, dribbling, through ball, finish. And so forth. If you had the last, second to last or whichever contact in an attack doesn't say anything about the quality or importance of the play. Look at Neymar's pre-assist to Mbappe before their second goal against Atalanta. Neymar won't even show up on the scoring sheet but the way he postures himself with that little feint to set the defender on the wrong foot and plays a perfectly weighted and directed no look pass.. Sure that was good off the ball movement by Mbappe and Choupo-Moting but that goal was created 90% by Neymar.
And that's the stuff you very, very rarely see from Cristiano. His role is more that of Mbappe in this scene. Make a good run behind the line, receive the ball and square/cross it for a tap in. But that he plays one of those chipped passes behind the line, a through ball, creates superiority through a dribbling or a great one two in the build up - that's not to be seen often since probably 2013. On the other hand, Messi has evolved that aspect of his game further and further to the point where there's no other player as good at that as him. The fact that he still maintains a goal record that's at least on eye level with Cristiano's, CL knockout goals aside, is actually insane.
So yeah, I do rate playmaking that highly and you're right, due to that it's not really a discussion for me. That's what I've been saying since ages and what's "ridiculous" in the eyes of many of your peers
Anyway, as mentioned as it is getting more on best playmaker vs best goalscorer arguments now, we will always have people agree and disagree. I don’t have problem with people leaning towards best playmaker > best goalscorer though, but I just don’t agree with someone claiming one is better than the other and “it’s not even close” in a competition, despite the other has dominated/achieved/done more on the same competition.
The only glaring stupidity involved here is to do with how many miles away you were from even understanding his point. Of course nobody can or did actually compare Ronaldo the footballer with Klose the footballer. He was making a point which you seemingly missed. That goals and assist are not the only metric. And you assists certainly arent the definitive factor when it comes to creativity. Otherwise Iniesta wouldn't be considered extremely creative. I mean, Ronaldo is a brilliant attacker but he isn't close to Messi's level of creativity really. You don't even need statistics for to know this
They are false because Ronaldo is Ronaldo, Messi is Messi, Zidane is Zidane, Henry is Henry and so on. I don't have any need to understand why some people equal Henry to Ronaldo in the Champions League, because, for example, as far as I am aware, Henry didn't perform anywhere close to Ronaldo in that competition.
If someone told me Buffon was more decisive than Saviola, I would surely answer "oh yes, but why do you mention them?"
That's something you have decided yourself. What I said is Ronaldo has scored huge amounts of goals in the most difficult club competition in the world in the most advanced rounds. More than twice the amount Messi scored from quarters on, and that it adds very interesting information. Conclusive? Maybe not. Incredibly relevant? Definitely.
Please read above.
It would be a false analogy if I had equalled that player to Ronaldo. But I don't think I did, did I? My point was, and I said that explicitly in my previous post, volume of goals is incredibly important, and being more complete doesn't necessarily imply the biggest impact.
Supposed we only analyze the goals where Ronaldo just had the final touch, you will have to prove how someone finishing a play doesn't contribute to its creation. Especially if we speak about someone whose main trait is knowing when and where to position himself to finish the plays.
Nobody has done that.
I specifically asked about Messi's contribution in games where his team didn't win the tie, because I want to understand the impact he had better. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wait a minute, are you suggesting Messi has biggest impact on Barca winning CL during 2005-2006, despite sitting in the bench majority of time watching Ronaldinho & Eto’o during over 90% of knockout stages, just because he has made 1 good appearance in last 16 match? Wow no wonder you agree on everything Manuel Trequete said. You guys are on the same wavelength.
Putting aside the Ronaldo rivalry - could he realistically leave Barcelona this summer? There are sounds that he's extremely unhappy with the current situation, but would any club be able to pay a big transfer fee + his wages? Maybe only City?
Thing is, goals and assists alone are incomplete metrics to measure a players attacking impact. As described they leave out many incredibly important plays completely. However, a good performance by Ronaldo is more likely to be reflected in his assist/goal stats since his playing style and tactical role is geared towards that whereas Messi's isn't. So I disagree that Ronaldo has dominated or done more in the CL. He only did so if you look at goals/assist and trophy counts. If you compare game by game, play by play, I see Messi in front.
And that's what bothers me. It's incredibly hard to quantify the performance of a footballer. If you were to write that down in an algorithm, you'd have to include stuff like dribblings, packing rate, key passes, expected goal impact and so forth. But that's far too complicated and far from reality to be applied so people judge based on what they see and conclude in their minds. And man of the match performances are the closest reflection of such a holistic approach to viewing a performance, and Messi brightly outshines everyone else in this aspect.
Also, when people claimed Ronaldo didn't dominate La Liga, many including me intervened and said that he definitely had done so, even though he only won it two times in almost a decade. Messi for instance dominated the CL last year, too, despite not winning it. You guys just ignore such stuff and try to oversimplify things because looking at it superficially benefits Cristiano and I can't stand that. If you think Ronaldo's impact in total was greater (and apply the same criteria in other comparisons regarding other players/clubs, too), I'm totally fine with that. But those double standards are what triggers most people in here.
Well performance wise I don’t have problem with people saying Messi is better, even in CL. Messi has always been top performer in most competition he take part in, hence I also regard him as GOAT, and in any sense not less than Ronaldo, even from Ronaldo fans perspective.
But the problem here with some fans here is, they don’t think winning the game is as important as performing, especially when it comes to Messi. This is just totally not ok, football is competitive game, and winning is always the utmost important, although people will also admire team/player losing with beautiful football (ie Netherlands in WC). But the suggest losing more with beautiful football > winning more but in less beautiful football, totally defeat the purpose of football game.
Ronaldo is the ultimate winner in CL, with his goals, assist, trophies, impact on making decisive win. Messi is the ultimate performer in CL, with his dribbling, playmaking, and many of his player of match performances. I totally agree on that part. Messi also scores a lot but just less than Ronaldo, and Ronaldo also make a lot of assist and does contribute a lot to his team attacking play too, but just not same level as Messi. At the end of the day, Ronaldo wins more and has bigger impact on “winning“ in this competition, this is all I want to say.
I don't think people in here "underrate" winning and think that performing is more important. But we're talking about individuals and I can only speak for me but I get triggered when someone says Ronaldo performed better because he won the tournament more often in a discussion about individuals. Also, this debate tends to get quite emotional with both parties becoming quite nasty and provocative at times, leading to some arguments being presented more extreme than people would explain them in a calmer environment.
You also have to confess that "a bigger impact on winning" is quite easy to misunderstand. To most of us, "Messi performed better but Cristiano had a bigger impact on winning" is a contradiction at the first glance. I think I get how you mean it (Ronaldo won it more often and thus was the match winner more often whereas Messi went out more often despite generally performing better) but at least for me that's not what I initially thought of when I read your post.
Oh and I almost forgot: That's a very reflected view and I can agree with it almost entirely.
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Like Ronaldo fans with the Euro Cup?
That's a pretty balanced view to be honest. Arguing on it would be mostly to do with semantics and phrasing.
This is fair.
They lost 1-0 against Lyon away. Ronaldo did nothing in that game. It's a team game so I'm not trying to bash Ronaldo but I'm trying to highlight the ridiculous logic here by some of Ronaldo's fans.
Messi scores 2 against Liverpool at home and was Barca's best player at Anfield setting up 3 one-on-one chances at Anfield for Suarez, Coutinho and Alba: He bottled it, it's his fault etc. etc.
Ronaldo scores 2 goals against Lyon at home, but doesn't score any goals away and did nothing which cost Juve the tie: HE DID HIS JOB, it's the team's fault.
Rumours that Inter and PSG are very interested
Some Spanish papers claim he wants to leave.
He probably does, who can afford him though. Can only see PSG realistically.
City? Although there are those kind of rumors nearly every year.
Maybe, though given they already had FFP problems would have to very careful.
Total deal cost totally ruinous for pretty much any club.
Yeah, that's fair. Basically boils down to Ronaldo being the slightly more effective player. Which has always been my opinion.
You want the ultimate winner you pick Ronnie.
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/bar...ted-messi-at-barcelona-amid-doubt-over-future
Quotes. Who has €700 million lying around to pay that release clause...Do people just spend all their times arguing online? Go outside
Yes but the comparison is completely disingenuous you are comparing Ronaldo who has actual GOAT abilities. Just because you believe Messi's goat abilities are better doesn't mean you can start comparing the assists and stats only comparison because outside of that Ronaldo has genuine all time abilities that he has shown.
Ronaldo is not Jamie Vardy, klose, inzaghi etc he is an all time great player who also happens to be a statical God and have the consistently that only one other player has ever been able to compete with.
This is why it's annoying when people make the comparison. There are all time great abilities and things Ronaldo can do that Messi can't and vise versa. He is not an above average player who just happens to score a bunch of goals. He has also shown to not be a player hampered much by systems or team mates. Which is also a genuine great attribute.
Well Maguire went outside to argue and now he's arrestedDo people just spend all their times arguing online? Go outside
Well Maguire went outside to argue and now he's arrested
At least people are social distancing here, I guessIt's not a real comparison. Get a grip, take a step back and see the point being made rather than fuming at the sight of the names being mentioned. It's a good point and and I definitely agree with it.
He's essentially saying - go beyond the simplistic measure of peformance that is goals and/or assists. If you don't want to, that's your choice. But many will disagree on everything being rolled into merely that. The reason why those two players cannot be compared based on end product is because the intangibles (at least statistically for that time period) and the eye test clearly tell you that Maradona is better. And many feel the same about this comparison, although nowhere near as straightforward given we all agree that Ronaldo is a complete package as a footballer and not a limited one (hence an all time great).
Ronald Koeman said:
Barcelona is essentially the Messi show at this point. Winning trophies is less important than keeping Messi and making sure he's happy...Samuel Eto'o said:
How the mighty have fallen
You’ve created a narrative to somehow make it seem like Messi was the most important player in Barca’s 2006 CL triumph when he didn’t even feature beyond the last 16 of the KO rounds. Or his wizardry was so incredible that he was able to influence games from the stands or from behind his TV screen? That match vs. Chelsea was one game. In the context of comparing him to Ronaldo, that 2006 win shouldn’t really factor in the debate as Ronaldo was undisputed top dog and best player (also topscorer) in every single CL he won.
Messi scored 7 league goals in 05/06 and 1 solitary goal in the entirety of that year’s CL campaign so I’d like to see those wonder goals he was scoring every other week. And he didn’t score that hat-trick against Real Madrid until a season later.
He also only played 17 league games (many sub appearances) so I’m doubtful he was as key to their success that season even in the league as you claim he was.
I would love for Ronaldo fans to be threadbanned from Messi's discussion and vice versa. fecking tedious shit.