Its 4 years of this though. He's so deep and static that he gets crowded out and his lack of movement leads to the midfield getting overrun.
His position gets ruthlessly exposesd at the highest level these days.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
His position gets ruthlessly exposesd at the highest level these days.
Man, he decided the tie against Lyon, the tie against United and the first leg against Liverpool in his typical fashion with 8 scorers in 5 matches. Barca conceded four goals yesterday, that's hardly his fault, especially since he apparently had a decent match (couldn't watch unfortunately so I rely on what I read).
People need to understand that the collective is far more important than the individual quality. Good coaches create synergies between players and the team becomes more than the sum of their parts, Barca hadn't had someone like this since Pep. This Klopp team was imferior in almost any position, yet they managed this comeback.
Maybe we should put in a cheeky bid for Messi 
There are two discussions running concurrently here with some conflating flashpoints.
The one discussion about the literal greatest players of all time, and the other about how poor or old Barcelona are.
It was said all throughout the build up in the game thread that Barcelona were technically superior to Liverpool and would play them off the park - those who said Liverpool's energy and vastly superior fitness would be a crucial component in the tie not being given the benefit of the doubt. Now, post tie, Barcelona as a team aren't good enough ergo, Messi is absolved, supposedly. This is par for the course with the double talk afforded to Messi perhaps more than any other player I've known.
I habour no grudge against the player - he's a phenomenal talent and a joy to watch, but, if one is to throw his name into the mix as the de facto best player of literally all time, every piece of scrutiny and objective analysis will be heaped upon him just as it was for all in that grouping. Double talk, cognitive dissonance or the simple tendancy of glossing over every one of these capitulations will not cut it.
Messi looked like a man on a mission in the first leg, a true impression of a player with the kind of character associated with the others in his tier. By contrast, he looked like someone going down with the ship very early in the second half yesterday, and not for the first time (by a long shot) which is wholly atypical of the associative banding he placed in. You cannot praise the first leg whilst flippantly dismissing the second, where he looked equally off his game contrasted to just one game prior. Like it or not, there is a pattern forming and this is happening too many times. Again, it's not about winning or losing, it's about capitulating or wilting when the chips are truly against the team; it can only happen so many times before it is a distinguished character flaw. Once the dust settles, this game, in isolation, won't do much damage to his legacy, but allied to the rest of the times this has happened, and the fact time is running out, it would be a sour mark and a lowpoint if this is the end for him/Barca at this level of competition.
In this upcoming final phase of his career, where he is expected to become a deeper player who supplies others, he will need the appropriate team-mates around him and he won't be expected to be some all-conqueror who can do everything by himself. Indeed, it would be unfair and unrealistic given all the others in his banding had either gone into semi-retirement or were facilitators for others by the age Messi is, even now. Then again, they didn't have access to such sports science, nutrition or medical treatment, so weighting of age can be accepted and in favour of Messi's era.
It will actually be a shame if the much needed rebuild at Barca takes long enough for Messi to decline in the interim. I think it'll also be a shame if this is the last time Barca get this far in the competition whilst Messi still has good years left in him.
The one discussion about the literal greatest players of all time, and the other about how poor or old Barcelona are.
It was said all throughout the build up in the game thread that Barcelona were technically superior to Liverpool and would play them off the park - those who said Liverpool's energy and vastly superior fitness would be a crucial component in the tie not being given the benefit of the doubt. Now, post tie, Barcelona as a team aren't good enough ergo, Messi is absolved, supposedly. This is par for the course with the double talk afforded to Messi perhaps more than any other player I've known.
I habour no grudge against the player - he's a phenomenal talent and a joy to watch, but, if one is to throw his name into the mix as the de facto best player of literally all time, every piece of scrutiny and objective analysis will be heaped upon him just as it was for all in that grouping. Double talk, cognitive dissonance or the simple tendancy of glossing over every one of these capitulations will not cut it.
Messi looked like a man on a mission in the first leg, a true impression of a player with the kind of character associated with the others in his tier. By contrast, he looked like someone going down with the ship very early in the second half yesterday, and not for the first time (by a long shot) which is wholly atypical of the associative banding he placed in. You cannot praise the first leg whilst flippantly dismissing the second, where he looked equally off his game contrasted to just one game prior. Like it or not, there is a pattern forming and this is happening too many times. Again, it's not about winning or losing, it's about capitulating or wilting when the chips are truly against the team; it can only happen so many times before it is a distinguished character flaw. Once the dust settles, this game, in isolation, won't do much damage to his legacy, but allied to the rest of the times this has happened, and the fact time is running out, it would be a sour mark and a lowpoint if this is the end for him/Barca at this level of competition.
In this upcoming final phase of his career, where he is expected to become a deeper player who supplies others, he will need the appropriate team-mates around him and he won't be expected to be some all-conqueror who can do everything by himself. Indeed, it would be unfair and unrealistic given all the others in his banding had either gone into semi-retirement or were facilitators for others by the age Messi is, even now. Then again, they didn't have access to such sports science, nutrition or medical treatment, so weighting of age can be accepted and in favour of Messi's era.
It will actually be a shame if the much needed rebuild at Barca takes long enough for Messi to decline in the interim. I think it'll also be a shame if this is the last time Barca get this far in the competition whilst Messi still has good years left in him.
Messi's walking and lack of movement at times is a problem.
But it's still minor compared to the other problems they have.
Suarez walks a lot and doesn't offer 1/10 of what Messi does.
They don't press collectively well as a team anymore. They used to be the best pressing team in the world. They're nowhere near that now.
They have press resistant players, but they're no longer great at bypassing the press as a team.
And perhaps most importantly, they truly botched the money they got from Neymar.
If Alba and Suarez bury their chances which they should've, he would've had 2 assists yesterday and completely decided the tie on his own. It's a team sport, you can't do it all on yourself.
We dedicated half our defensive effort just to stop him and even then he was their best player and still had a good performance on a difficult night for his team. The only criticism you could have about last night is that he didn't score his own chance in the first half when he tried to cut back to his left. Other than that, he did more than enough imo to give his team an excellent chance to progress.
I think people will be amazed when Messi retires just how far Barcelona will fall back. They don't have a clear identity anymore like they used to and will struggle massively. I concede that they're pretty much build around Messi at this point, but why shouldn't they since that's their best chance to win games. Yesterday however, I felt other players were in better positions in the final third several times yet they still were looking for Messi instead of creating something of their own. I don't know if that's instructions or just habit, but it certainly wasn't the best option.
We dedicated half our defensive effort just to stop him and even then he was their best player and still had a good performance on a difficult night for his team. The only criticism you could have about last night is that he didn't score his own chance in the first half when he tried to cut back to his left. Other than that, he did more than enough imo to give his team an excellent chance to progress.
I think people will be amazed when Messi retires just how far Barcelona will fall back. They don't have a clear identity anymore like they used to and will struggle massively. I concede that they're pretty much build around Messi at this point, but why shouldn't they since that's their best chance to win games. Yesterday however, I felt other players were in better positions in the final third several times yet they still were looking for Messi instead of creating something of their own. I don't know if that's instructions or just habit, but it certainly wasn't the best option.
Messi has as much of a habit these days as completely disappearing in the big games as he does deciding them.
You can win against a team like Liverpool when you have two players literally walking around the pitch unless they have the ball at their feet.
You can win against a team like Liverpool when you have two players literally walking around the pitch unless they have the ball at their feet.
I wonder how one guy in the world always gets the benefit of doubt. If Higuain takes his chance, Messi wins the world cup. If Alba and Suarez bury their chances, Messi wins UCL. If person x doesn't miss in tie-breaker, Messi wins the Copa.
And also, the popular notion here, among some, is that Messi does it all on his own most of the time. He makes people around him play better. He dribbles from center line, makes 6-7 defense splitting passes per game, and generally sets up all the attacks.
Only when Barca loses, suddenly it's a team sport, and he "can't do it all alone". His team members are all shit and not necessarily better while playing around Messi.
Wish the standards were same for other players as well.
He went missing though in that last half hour when he was needed most. He certainly lacks leadership qualities.
No player wins every big match or every big competion on his own. And the greatest players also have bad matches. He is already this years top CL scorer.
But this begun when they had prime Neymar and Suarez around him. Messi walked through the tie in Paris, was a passenger in the comeback and was nowhere in their tanking by Juve and their limp comeback attempt.
Its been the same for him every since. He's just lucky he had Lyon and United to pad against this year! Even then he was nowhere on both away legs.
Its a real problem for he and Barca. He's just showing glimpses of his talent rather than the sport destroyer we've seen before.
some comments after performance like yesterday's just shows he's victim of his own ridiculous standards he set in the last 10 years, even after very good game and after being clearly their best player on the pitch. he actually needs to get injured for some people to realize just how much does he elevate current Barca. I kind of wish they played without him yesterday and you played with both Salah and Firminho. those who don't watch Barca every week would be shocked at how bad they would look in those circumstances. they would think they're watching Sevilla, not Barca.
I’m in the Messi the GOAT camp, and I also of the opinion that he was woeful and invisible for his standards yesterday, especially in the second half.
But I don’t see how the team losing is down to him. Sure he didn’t score/assist, but has it really reached the point where if his team loses and he does nothing he gets the blame for not carrying his team to a result?
Ajax didn’t beat Juve because of Ronaldo not dragging his team.
Barca got knocked out because they were completely sub-par.
But I don’t see how the team losing is down to him. Sure he didn’t score/assist, but has it really reached the point where if his team loses and he does nothing he gets the blame for not carrying his team to a result?
Ajax didn’t beat Juve because of Ronaldo not dragging his team.
Barca got knocked out because they were completely sub-par.
What I don't get is. If 1, 2 or 3 of the absolute sitters he creates for his teammates goes in. Does that make his appearance better? It would probably, but not through any sort of contribution of his own. That's the problem in judging a single player in a team sport by the result of a match. It's obviously grating that the guy just walks around like he's taking a stroll in the park when the other team attacks, but look at last week, were the mighty VVD told the press Messi is impossible to defend BECAUSE he just strolls around when he doesn't have the ball.
Yesterday was a complete clusterfeck by Barca, but if there's someone who at least did something to contribute to a goal it was him. Same with Ronaldo at least scoring a goal for Juve in that Ajax tie. There's only so much you can do.
Barca didn't miss any fecking sitters. They were completely shut down and overran
Mark Halsey reckons that Robertson ought to have been sent off for his double-handed shove of Messi's head when he was on the floor. He cited the rule that any strike with the hands above neck level is an immediate red-card offense.
Despite the poor performance by Barca, we should have been looking at a ten men Liverpool for most of the game. No VAR on that. The luck has no end.
Despite the poor performance by Barca, we should have been looking at a ten men Liverpool for most of the game. No VAR on that. The luck has no end.
Messi didnt make a meal out of it. If he rolls on the floor, like Fabinho or Suarez would have done, maybe VAR would have looked at it. But not sure a red would have been given.
Only Tom Henning Ovrebo gives it a red.
Messi is a victim of being in the bracket that are the greatest of all time and held to a level of scrutiny normal players will never experience in their career. Nothing more or less.
His brilliance and genius is beyond reproach, but that's not what's being discussed and it isn't unique in the aforementioned bracket, either.
Messi being the best on a pitch is a given for the majority of games he plays, but that's not unique in such company, either - they are the best of all-time for that reason, amongst others.
That wasn't a tussle. It was one player on the ground with his back to the other and getting his head pushed aside.You can't be serious, a red card for a fecking tussle
A Scott Brown tussle then, maybe it's a Scottish thing
Honestly, you just sound biased as feck or incredibly bitter to me if you think that's a red card offense.
In fairness the guy has apologized for that and given an interview on how we wished he had VAR at the time.Only Tom Henning Ovrebo gives it a red.
No idea why he did that - was pretty stupid and as you say it could (should) have got him at least a yellow.
I don't think it was a red card. I just think it's nonsense to call it a tussle. A tussle is generally when two people are fighting for the ball.A Scott Brown tussle then, maybe it's a Scottish thing
Honestly, you just sound biased as feck or incredibly bitter to me if you think that's a red card offense.
Let's not kid ourselves though. It was a unnecessary cheap shot which is why I've little sympathy for him re Suarez getting him back.
It's nothing that the likes of Suarez, Alba or Busquets wouldn't do, and it set the tone early on for what Messi could expect during the rest of the night. I don't mind these little things to try and get into their heads, especially not in a game which could be decided in the details.
It's another thing when it's just pure thuggery or cnutish behaviour but this was minor imo. It's nothing worse than standing on your opponent's toe before a corner or giving him a push in the ribs.
IMO it is cnutish behaviour. Do that to someone at a 7 aside game and I guarantee you there's a fight.
Ultimately you're needlessly laying both hands on someone's head when they're on the ground and facing away from you. It's so obviously cnutish behaviour.
While it sorta was cnutish behavior and frankly I was a little surprised to see it coming from Robertson who I generally think of as one of the nice guys, it just shows you the importance of the game/situation. And frankly, my estimation of Robertson has gone up even higher. Setting the tone early like that (I think we can all agree Messi doesn’t like being touched/manhandled) trying to unsettle him. Thought to myself at the time “this can go one of two ways”.
Barcelona didn't need a Suarez or Valverde replacement, a new midfielder or some great defenders. Yesterday they needed a captain.
It's not even the fact they lost that's bad since Liverpool are a great team and it can always happen, it's how it happened that's unforgivable.
'We promise that this year we will do everything possible so that this beautiful and coveted cup can be back at the Camp Nou.". If you're going to make that promise in front of a full Camp Nou, you have to keep it. They could have failed to win it, but never this way.
It's not even the fact they lost that's bad since Liverpool are a great team and it can always happen, it's how it happened that's unforgivable.
'We promise that this year we will do everything possible so that this beautiful and coveted cup can be back at the Camp Nou.". If you're going to make that promise in front of a full Camp Nou, you have to keep it. They could have failed to win it, but never this way.
As a Liverpool supporter I am quite thrilled with yesterday's game but your post is pretty much nonsense. Messi was the only player on Barcelona who did anything yesterday and that's after being hacked by Fabinho, Milner, Henderson, Robertson all game. Just look up a few posts to the amount of great chances he created for Barcelona. What Barcelona needs is a manager who sets the team up to play to their strengths. It was proven in the first leg that they couldn't handle the intense pressure and strength of Liverpool yet Valverde set them up exactly the same way for the 2nd leg. His plan was to rely on Messi scoring an away goal. It's absolutely mind boggling that he would set Barcelona out to sit back and defend when they are geared more towards dominating the ball.
Barcelona don't need a new captain. They need a new manager.
I think he do carry that side a bit too much. Also think Barcelona seem a bit mentally and physically weak these days. I expected Liverpool to win before the games. After the first game I did feel like messi being insane had given Barca the win. Although they then defend like kids in the second game and concedes 4 goals.
I think without Messi Liverpool would have smashed Barca easily and won with a couple of goals.
I think without Messi Liverpool would have smashed Barca easily and won with a couple of goals.
That's not a red card in a million years. The rationale there is nonsense - it's not a strike so it's not violent conduct. It's at best a yellow, if the referee sees it, for unsporting conduct.
I don't watch much La Liga sadly and didn't see the game yesterday but what actually is Barca's problem that they have to rely on Messi so much? It's not exactly the same team as ten years ago but it's still packed with quality.
Stopped reading there.
The guy is a gutless loser. Two years in a row he's had a 3 goal lead and went away in the second leg, played defensively to try and hold it and lost it. It doesn't take a genius to realise that at Barcelona you don't have the players or the system to do that. It's fine if you're Atletico Madrid and it's what you specialise in. Only a clown would set up to invite pressure with a team that can't defend.
Imagine Pep with a 3 goal lead? I guarantee you he would be going for an away goal to kill the tie.
Too many of them are past it IMO. Suarez is finished. He's been ran into the ground in recent seasons because they have literally no cover. Rakitic is done too. Coutinho just isn't mentally good enough to be a Barca player. He doesn't fit in with how they should be playing football either.
If you have Messi in the centre then you need runners off him. You need direct, quick players. They don't have any of that. They're an incredibly slow team. I think the average age yesterday was 30 or 29. Big rebuilding job required there.
Ronaldo wasn’t even top 3 players on his own team last time he played against Liverpool.
Thats what most good managers would be doing except Jose. Jose would park the bus properly though, not the half arsed passive attempt Valverde tried.
Barca knew Liverpool would score a few. Two, three or four doesnt matter. One goal for them and the tie would probably be over. If you lose 3-1 or 4-1 or 4-2, so be it, you are through and that counts. But to go there with the same players and setup and try to nick a goal somehow, but ending up getting battered is hilarious. Second time in a row. The reactive manager that he is, he waited til the 3-0 to make a change/sub.
I don't know what that has to do with anything?
It doesn’t
.