WOODWARD!..........HELLOOOO!
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LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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How is comparing the reaction to a good goal and a penalty miss fair? What does that prove?
Couldn't find a youtube vid of LVG's reaction to goals - we all know what it's like and it is a million miles from Klopp.
The post is designed to point out the difference in passion.
Something that has gone missing from the Club, the manager and the players.
"Look, Ryan, there is the evidence I need to get rid of Wayne's rival."
"Well I did tell you that
"How are you using strikethroughs in conversations?"
More seriously, that moment f*cked me off more than anything in the past few years. And the clowns were giggling with delight like schoolgirls while watching World Class Wayne play for the u-21s. Piss off, the pair of you.
Not sure I agree there. Astonishingly, the injuries actually seem to have helped in that we were better than sh*te once Rooney, Valencia, Young and Fellaini (presumably this is the list of "key players" that was injured?) were out. It meant we actually were forced to play with Lingard instead of Mata on the right and had to bring in some of the youngsters who incredibly improved our showings. Our run in December was not the result of injury but of astoundingly poor team selections, tactics and substitutions. He's "done well" you say at the back end of the season? Well, that's only in comparison to winter. We were at one time pretty close to Leicester and people were talking up our chances of an "unlikely title run". Instead, we're not talking up an "unlikely run to fourth". Our longest winning run is 2 games (3 games across the season I think) in the league since that winter "blip". We've dropped 6 points more than Leicester in the last 5 games alone. In that run, despite beating City, we even dropped a point away from them. I think suggesting that we've done "well" is really, really stretching a point...
As for a bad job, ummm, we have scored 39 goals all season. We're lower on points and position compared to last season and even managed to be lower on points and goals compared to the Moyes season (something that was a historic low in the PL era). It's not even funny just how bad we've been. And once again (this gets repeated so damn often), the youngsters brought in were not brought in voluntarily, but out of helplessness. When the "big guns" are fit, they get no chance whatsoever. No matter the potential, Pereira has not been given a shout despite our midfield being variously in the states of decimated by injury, horrific on form and unable to create / score. Rashford? Brought in because there was nobody else to play that position. Same for TFM, CBJ and even Lingard.
Has happened to any number of great managers (with the exception of Fergie). Even Cruyff had fallings-out at various points in his career, though he's seen as a legend everywhere. Hiddink had a monumental failure with Holland only recently, Rijkaard lost his Barcelona team entirely, LvG (still a great manager over his career) saw civil revolt at Barca as well as Bayern a few years before his incredible run with Holland, Klopp endured a miserable (majority of the) season with Dortmund. Most managers endure these times. Read about what his players say about him though. Don't expect a Fergie. Fergie was an exception to just about every rule (win ratio, longevity, style, adaptation...) and the sooner we recognize that, the faster we will embrace reality.
I have been saying these things since January, when I turned against LVG (before December I was a very strong supporter of him).I'm quite disgusted tbh
Search through the forum, I said years ago that Klopp was made for Liverpool, and I mean't it as an insult. I don't like the man but, Christ can you see his influence and mindset installed into a very limited set of players....You can see what he is building...
LvG....Goes on and on about a process but no one has a fecking clue what he is trying to build. To this day, I know people who will refuse to blame him and demand he see out his contract because he is "building something special." Unless it's a cesspool of shit, I ain't got a clue what he's building and I've been following football 23 yearsAnd make no mistake about it, he will be here next year. Same old shite, same old boring mess....And then Giggs comes along and he's running back to Fergie, every few minutes, asking "How do I do this?" As we face Stoke in a battle of the mid table titans
The contrast is staggering. Liverpool 4 or 5 years ago couldn't touch us and now look. It's eye watering.
A good example being, a few years ago, people on this forum whinged about going to Wembley and they don't like it. Now, some people are reaching for the champagne because we're at Wembley. Standards are dropping. Big time. I don't mean to offend anyone with my post but, I worry for us unless this clown is lifted and someone like Mourinho comes in
I think a huge problem we are having since SAF left is that standards have fallen dramatically.
This obsession was 4th place is worrying and is allowing managers like Moyes or LVG to "hang on", for longer than they should.
The media and fans seem convinced that if we get the 4th place trophy, LVG will continue to manage us and to this day, nobody has managed to explain to me, when we changed from a title contending team, to a team which aspires, to one day, finish in 4th place, if we are lucky.
Re: Manager
Since SAF left, we have fecking around hiring a mid table manager and quality manager who can't handle the EPL.
We need a Galactico level manager (which is what Fergie was and Mourinho is).
Hiring Moyes and Giggs, is like selling Neymar or Messi and buying a 15 goal/per season striker and expecting him to play like Messi. Then when he fails to do this, we complain and act confused as to why he can't do what Messi did.
IMO, hiring Mourinho will be a massive statement of intent, as will breaking the World record transfer fee (which Woodward attempted to do last Summer).
If we hadn't lost all those games then we might be in a better position in the league and CL.
I have to say I was set in my line of thinking but I've never thought about it like that before. Fascinating.
I have to say I was set in my line of thinking but I've never thought about it like that before. Fascinating.
Definitely worthy of a new contract.
Maureen's demise went a little deeper. It backed up what many people thought....he couldn't re-build and find a solution to the one big test of his career. He was unable to turnaround the ship. Several of the managers including LVG have done this several times. Most of those managers didn't fall out with authority at every turn, poke rival managers in the eye and generally make the club that employed them look bad for various misdemeanors at various times. He stands out head and shoulders amongst his peers as a bad figurehead for a global organization, at his lowest ebb professionally with alternatives to him staring us in the face.
I dont think the "falling standards" thing is part of the problem, personally. I think its a symptom rather than a cause.
I understand the point @sunama makes that falling standards allows mediocre managers to stick around for longer than they should but, seriously, we are about to take on our third manager in four years (fingers crossed), how much more churn do we want to see? If we sack managers after a few months and the first sign of trouble we arent going to get anywhere. I supported giving Moyes as long as we did (and originally wanted to judge him on season 2, but had come around by the time we did sack him), and similarly, while I now advocate getting rid of LVG, I only came round to that view in January (though by December I was definitely coming round to it).
The fact is we are in a hole. We are where we are. Lowering expectations - in the short term specifically - is just being realistic. We can shout all we want about our rightful place at the top of English football and how we should win the league, it isnt going to get us any closer to the top. We're like some stinking, disgraced, alcoholic aristocrat who finds himself living on the street, looking down his nose at the tramps among who he finds himself sleeping, yelling that we went to Eaton and Oxford, dammit, and eat caviar, not soup provided by the local salvation army. We need to accept that where we were isnt relevant, and the only thing that is going to get us back to where we want to be is accepting our circumstances and hard work.
We do have means. Like our destitute aristocrat, who can fall back on his education and experience, we have support, a great stadium and money, and can get back to the top. If we make the right managerial appointment, that will be a big step. I think our squad is better than its showing and I think a lot of the young players we have can be part of a successful United team. I think - I hope - we are closer that it sometimes feels. Though I felt that way at the back end of last season as well, I didnt see this season's shambles coming at all. But you have to remain optimistic. How close to are to winning the league Im not sure. We have traditionally been the biggest fish in the pond by quite a distance, now not so much. I dont think recognising that is defeatist or in any way contributing to our problems, its just recognising things for what they are. Football, like life generally, is often cyclical and after a long time at the very top we have to accept a few years of relative disappointment. It wont go on forever.
I understand the point @sunama makes that falling standards allows mediocre managers to stick around for longer than they should but, seriously, we are about to take on our third manager in four years (fingers crossed), how much more churn do we want to see? If we sack managers after a few months and the first sign of trouble we arent going to get anywhere. I supported giving Moyes as long as we did (and originally wanted to judge him on season 2, but had come around by the time we did sack him), and similarly, while I now advocate getting rid of LVG, I only came round to that view in January (though by December I was definitely coming round to it).
The fact is we are in a hole. We are where we are. Lowering expectations - in the short term specifically - is just being realistic. We can shout all we want about our rightful place at the top of English football and how we should win the league, it isnt going to get us any closer to the top. We're like some stinking, disgraced, alcoholic aristocrat who finds himself living on the street, looking down his nose at the tramps among who he finds himself sleeping, yelling that we went to Eaton and Oxford, dammit, and eat caviar, not soup provided by the local salvation army. We need to accept that where we were isnt relevant, and the only thing that is going to get us back to where we want to be is accepting our circumstances and hard work.
We do have means. Like our destitute aristocrat, who can fall back on his education and experience, we have support, a great stadium and money, and can get back to the top. If we make the right managerial appointment, that will be a big step. I think our squad is better than its showing and I think a lot of the young players we have can be part of a successful United team. I think - I hope - we are closer that it sometimes feels. Though I felt that way at the back end of last season as well, I didnt see this season's shambles coming at all. But you have to remain optimistic. How close to are to winning the league Im not sure. We have traditionally been the biggest fish in the pond by quite a distance, now not so much. I dont think recognising that is defeatist or in any way contributing to our problems, its just recognising things for what they are. Football, like life generally, is often cyclical and after a long time at the very top we have to accept a few years of relative disappointment. It wont go on forever.
It was foolish and you wouldn't have been questioned by others if it weren't. We can leave it there if you like.
I give you my word (and you can quote in 5 years time), that I will NOT appreciate what LVG has done for us.
He has brought in a brand of excruciatingly boring football, attempting to score 1 goal per game.
The losing. The drawing. The inability to manage Galactico class players (last season both our Galacticos wanted to leave, 1 got away, then other stayed because Madrid messed up at the last minute).
The ability to "reduce" the ability of our players.
Turning 4th place into our target, every season and hailing us a success if we achieve 4th place.
I could go on, but you get the point.
Hmm... Debatable at best.
1. Upon his entry, Mourinho turned Chelsea, followed by Inter, then by Real Madrid and then Chelsea again, into winners from being (at times distant) also-rans. He won the CL at Inter along with the league titles and also managed to beat a supposedly "best ever" Barca team in La Liga. Upon his return to England, he then overthrew the richest club in the world... Not turning things around?
2. Yep, he fell out at Chelsea and then couldn't recover. But here's the nub. None of the others has recovered from a mid-stint slump either. When LvG fell foul at Barca, everyone including the fans, the Board and the media (and even the players) was baying for blood and he had to walk. Same at Bayern. Rijkaard failed to recover and even Cruyff walked out of his roles at various clubs because of fallings-out with the powers-that-be (or should I say, were?).
3. Poking in the eye - once. Misdemeanours? Christ on a bike! Fergie routinely got into hot water for criticizing referees, kicked a boot at his own player, sold the world's best defender because of a personal grudge, potentially played a role in the Glazer takeover because of another personal issue and banned journalists and even entire media organizations when he felt offended. Mourinho was picked on and the increased coverage these days ensured that these became enduring images when he failed. However, to say that this makes him "head and shoulders" above his peers as a bad figurehead would be disingenuous at best. Not to mention that the United job is "different" for him (as per rumours) and the redemption at stake is likely to (hopefully) help with how he handles things here.
Lowest ebb? Sure, but that could easily be the greatest motivator ever. For one of the "winningest" managers ever. Bad thing? Possibly not.
Most importantly, which alternatives? Giggss with his wonderful 4 game stint? Or his 2 years aiding and abetting our most wasteful manager ever? Conte, Pep, Klopp, Ancelotti are all taken. Poch won't move (and hasn't won a thing so comes with few assurances) and Koeman is unproven at this level too. So, who are these alternatives? Neville proves the risk of Giggs, as do Solskjaer, Hughes (remember his City stint?), Bryan Robson, Steve Bruce, Roy Keane and several more. A legendary player does not automatically imply even a semi-decent manager...
Just what I was thinking
No it really wasn't and I stand by it. Everyone questions everyone on here, it would be pointless if they didn't. You just came across as juvenile and pedantic with no point to make. Oh no Jeff from the Internet doesn't like hypothetical scenarios on a football forum. Do you think I care? LvG gone or the FA Cup? LvG gone every day of the week for me and I won't change my mind on that. Long term, it would be much more beneficial for the club. If you disagree, then cool and also I really don't care.
Oh and for the record, the other people who questioned me, actually debated in a mature manner. You started off with the word respectful and ended up with stupid smilies in your posts and the word shit. Well done son, no point made and we're still here. The only 'foolish' one here is your good self. When I quote others I at least have a point to make. I get it, you don't like hypothetical scenarios, so what?
Come on guys, you're going round and round.
Yup, it's pathetic really.
I thought that was a perfectly reasonable post in many respects, I think LVG has to go for sure but if we go on and win the FA Cup and he leaves, we will in time look back more fondly at this period than many will think. Even though we hate it in the moment.
Even more seriously-ly, how are you using strikethroughs in your post? It's just fancy showing off and it makes you look like a
But he's everyone's bezzie mate!
So if we don't win the FA Cup we won't look back on this period 'fondly'? Is us winning a knockout competition with the opponents we've faced a swing factor in whether his reign was actually better than we currently realize? I imagine fans will probably remember the insipid football, laughable attack, 39 goals in 32 games, embarrassing CL knockout, shite squad management, constant deluded arrogance and return to Moyes season levels(actually worse in some respects) all whilst we spunked around 250m in the transfer market over any one off cup win where we avoided any of the teams above us on route to the semi final. This type of revisionist 'oh we'll be grateful for LVG in 20 years time' is trademarked Kinderbueno delusion, under any reasonable metric Van Gaal's tenure has failed spectacularly and has seen the club stagnated and continued it's post Ferguson mediocrity. He can play as many kids as he wants and hope for a cup win, it doesn't change two seasons worth of shite.
Craptain's privileges, chief.
Whatever your views on LVG, you have to give him credit for promoting Rashford and Mensah, both of whom look fine prospects to me (as does Martial). I think you may have the beginning of something there to build on.
He has, but only because he ran out of players. He has been lucky in that aspect. If Rooney had stayed fit there is no chance Rashford would be in the side.
Yes, it's not all bad and there is something to build on. Ultimately though, United need a manager capable of challenging for the big trophies (not just the FA Cup) and the 2016 version of Van Gaal does not seem capable of that.
The thing is, we probably never would have even seen Rashford had Keane and Martial been injured.
As @DomesticTadpole said, he's been forced to use a lot of youngsters simply because he ran out of players; which is his fault for deciding to start the season with such a thin squad in the first place. So in hindsight, I can thank him for being so incredibly shortsighted because we probably never would have seen so many young players come through this season.
I'm not going to credit him for the youth movement this season, as he's really had no choice in the matter. Regardless, I am delighted that the likes of Rashford and TFM have taken their chances brilliantly. They both look like legitimate players, especially TFM.
But he did run out of players as a direct result of his own choice to reduce the squad and I think someone posted videos up of him stating back when he did sell them all off that youngsters would now have more chances. He bought Martial who is very young, threw him in and he has done well. Then he moved him wide to accommodate Rashford and that to has worked out. The Youngsters have done well and that for me is down to LVG.
I don't quite understand this view. Not picking on you exclusively, DT, I've seen similar statements here and elsewhere on the web. LvGs intention at the start of the season was to have a smaller squad in order to give young players the opportunity to get minutes, he has not run out of players at all.
A rather freak injury crisis has meant we have been more reliant on academy players than was probably planned. Yes, there is some fortune attached to it but people who think that the good form of Manchester United Academy players is lucky need to have a word with themselves.
The only one who are deluded are those who think they are entitled to winning just because we are called "Manchester United". Standards have been dropping for years and years before LVG arrived. One can only conclude that when comparing the line-up of 07/08 with the one of five years later (12/13):
07/08:
---------------Tevez-----------------
Giggs----Rooney--------Ronaldo
-------Carrick-----Scholes-------
Evra---Vidic---Ferdinand--Brown
12/13
-----------------RVP
Young-----Rooney------Welbeck
---------Cleverly----Carrick
Evra----Vidic--Ferdinand---Rafael
In 07/08 we had Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo, who were all world-class at the time, they were replaced by utter mediocrity: Young, Welbeck and Cleverly. Then I'm not even talking about all players that were on the decline because they were aging (Ferdinand, Vidic etc.) who were also never properly replaced.
To get an idea of the magnitude of the rebuild, let's look at the full squad Fergie left behind and ask ourselves which of these would still have the quality to be definitive first eleven starters for Manchester United at this point in time (not filling, but guaranteed starters that could make the difference).
David de Gea: Definitely
Nemanja Vidic: Nope, had tons of injuries and has quit recently.
Phil Jones: Nope, squad player at best.
Chris Smalling: Yes, important player currently
Jonny Evans: Nope, West Brom seems to be his level
Rio Ferdinand: Has quit
Michael Keane: Nope
Patrice Evra: Maybe, but not with Shaw around.
Fábio: Nope
Alexander Buttner: Hell no
Antonio Valencia: Nope, squad player at best.
Rafael: Nope, very injury prone and has only played 17 matches in ligue 1 for Lyon.
Michael Carrick: In good shape yes, but seems to perform less consistent due to aging.
Anderson: Nope
Darren Fletcher: Nope
Tom Cleverley: Nope
Paul Scholes: quit
Ryan Giggs: quit
Shinji Kagawa: Maybe, but didn't seem to be able to handle the physicality of the league.
Ashley Young: Squad player, not guaranteed starter
Wilfried Zaha: Nope
Nani: Squad player, not guaranteed starter
Wayne Rooney: Seems to have lost his edge, let's keep it to a Maybe.
Nick Powell: Nope
Joshua King: Nope
Robin van Persie: Warming the bend at Fener, seems to have aged fast, so nope
Chicharito: Doing well at Bayer, but would not be more than a squad player here.
Danny Welbeck: Nope, not more than a squad player at best
Federico Macheda: Nope.
So Ferguson pretty much left us with: De Gea and Smalling, and if I'm stretching it: Carrick and Rooney. Both Carrick and Rooney will require replacement within the next two years. That means, over the course of 3 years, 7 to 9 players in first eleven had to be replaced, just to have a decent first eleven. Then I'm not even talking about having good quality players on the bench.
As we have seen this year, buying ready-made players such as Schweinsteiger doesn't solve a lot. Most of the money you name has been invested in potential, players that will likely make a difference in the future but are not yet world class now. Martial, Shaw, Depay are all examples. Is that money wasted? No, because two out of three seem to be making it (Depay is still a question mark). Will they improve our squad on the short term? Not very much, which is why we see these results.
LVG has made mistakes and maybe he doesn't fit MU as well as many of us had hoped. But he's still a top class manager, as he proved with the Netherlands at the WC before. Maybe we should start questioning that if two managers in a row cannot get the results fans want, then maybe it's actually because our first eleven is actually not yet good enough to get those results.
Martial was moved wide well before Rashford broke through. None of this supposed youth movement was planned, if it was we'd have seen a lot more of Pereira for example, but as it happens, his competition hasn't been injured at all.
I'd argue Youth movement was very much planned. He wanted a smaller squad because of his belief in academy development.
The points still remain. You have nothing to back up it wasn't planned. We have LVG on tape saying trimming the squad will help academy players this was at the end of last summers transfer window which backs up my assertions, not yours!
Good god, look at that line up. And with VDS in goal no less. It was easy to take that for granted at the time but... I miss those days.
And no, I'm not just talking about the quality of the side, but also about how well they worked together. How creative they were. How focused they were. How non-LVG the fecking were...
@
I know he wanted to use academy players, but it has backfired to an extent. I am sure that when he decided this he was not expecting the number of injuries. He could have still bought a striker and a CB and filled the squad out with kids.
Good for him but we are 5th in the league. That should not be the objective because at the end of the day when he is asked to justify his position.. I am sure injures will be an excuse.
I honestly didn't feel 'that' side played that well and was still expecting them to kick on with time which never happened(Ronaldo leaving as well). For instance the season before that we played better football.
I wonder how many games Mensa would be playing at right back if LVG had got his wish of Debuchy coming in January.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/feb/19/arsene-wenger-manchester-united-mathieu-debuchy
Also I agree that Rashford got lucky that Rooney, Keane and Martial all got injured at once while Wilson was on loan
It was the year before Ronaldo left though, I thought? The same year we won the league and CL?
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