They were formidable in the Champions League - remember that run from the Milan defeat in 07 (with an injury depleted defence) to the final in Rome 2 years later. All the while winning by far the strongest league in Europe.
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
- Thread starter Livewire1974
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Yeah I know I'm just saying the team never reached their full potential. The summer after when he left we should have been trying to hit the level Barcelona was at but instead we didn't invest in our midfield and replaced Ronaldo with Valencia when Ribery was the obvious replacement.
You missed his unparalleled list of trophies won over the last 12 or so years. That's pretty important.
Guardiola, who is thought to be the best manager in the World, has fewer trophies, despite managing better teams, which included Bayern (who had just won the treble) and Barca (which contained the best player of all time).
Now, if Guardiola can win a league and CL double with MCFC, that'll be something and on part with what Jose did with Inter and Porto.
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I think there was a general feeling that we could probably upgrade in central midfield, but apart from that it was a formidable team. With Vidic, Rio and VDS we had one of the most solid defensive units in Europe, and were often clinical in attack when we needed to be. Granted, it was no match for Pep's Barca when they came along, but it was a remarkably consistent side from 06-09.
I'm just saying that team should have been equal to barca but we never got there. Phenomenal set of players we had.
I agree that a CB was definitely needed, but at the same time, who was available? With the way Rashers has turned out I'm pleased we didn't buy another striker. I think the Shaw injury was not something that could be planned for and it has had the highest impact so far.
I don't believe fifth was ever the objective but, being objective, consider that there are 87 other professional clubs in England who would love to be fifth in the Prem, we're accustomed to better than that but as the saying goes you can't win 'em all. Injuries have hurt our consistency and Shaw's leg break is not something a club can realistically plan for. There's no denying these factors have hurt our performances this year.
Yes, reinvesting that 80 million plus a share of profits would have got us 3 elite players (a Ribery type plus at least one top midfielder) to enable us to take on Barcelona. Unfortunately our great side coincided with the post-financial crisis high watermark of Glazer induced austerity.
Ah, very true.
Na that's rubbish we've spent ridiculous fee's and have a far greater annual turnover than the 87 teams. 5th is rubbish.
Did he promote Rashford and TFM, or did he actually have a choice when (because of his own choice to have a ridiculously thin squad) he had no one else to use due to the injury problems?
Poorly worded on my part. The point I was trying to make is that he had no idea which players he was making room for and hasn't (or very rarely has) played youth where injuries haven't forced his hand. So while culling the squad to it's (unacceptable and stupid) current size may have been part of a plan to give academy players a chance, it wasn't a case of him identifying our 2-3 best youngsters and slowly introducing them to the team on merit, it was more of a random number generator approach to this so called youth movement. I already mentioned Pereira as an example of one of our most talented youngsters, who hasn't been planned for specifically. TFM is another (didn't include him on the B list for Europe in january, then he explodes when injuries pile up to give him his chance). It's all very hap hazard and therefore I find it hard to give him much credit for it.
Fergie had chances to play Pogba and he rather infamously plugged in Park and Rafael in midfield. I mean LvG has looked to give chances to everyone from McNair to Keane, Bo-Jack, Blackett and Varela when a defender was injured. How many times did Fergie play Carrick or Fletcher in defense when in a similar situation? Not giving Van Gaal credit for things he has obviously done well is a bit dishonest, there's plenty of other things to criticize him for which are well deserved.
The fact you cite your own version of who should go or stay doesn't really matter. I don't disagree that LVG has been overall a good manager over the years. That said, he has not been a good manager with United. That I don't think you can deny. Point is, sometimes managers, however brilliant they are, simply do not work out with a particular club. Unfortunately that has happened here. You say the lack of quality players is to blame. Yes I agree to some extent. But you can't have it both ways. LVG had pretty average players in the Dutch team and took it to third place at the World Cup. He (rightly) took a lot of credit for that. Conversely, what has he done here - literally lurching along, justifying his existence with unconvincing must wins after every bad run, forcing the players to play insipid and lame football. What has he done to inspire average players to play better? Klopp seems to be a pretty good example of doing just that with arguably worse or equally average players.
Lot of energy and words being expended on something very obvious: the man's just not very good. 39 goals in 32 games, FFS.
No, I don't think I am being dishonest here. I can't deny that LVG has played youngsters or has professed to give them a chance. But to claim credit for giving lads like Rashford or TFM a chance is a bit disingenuous. You can tell me he contemplated promoting guys like Adnan, Pereira, Wilson and McNair into the first team but no way in hell he considered starting Rashford or TFM in the first XI. He played these guys because he HAD to. Not by any structured or coherent design.
The situation with Pogba has been discussed to death. The problem wasn't that Fergie could not detect his talent, the problem was Pogba's and his manager's attitude towards the club. Ferguson had a certain way of doing things, he wasn't always fair or right in his decisions but he had earned the right to make these calls at the club. In the end we lost a world class talent and people have every right to be pissed but, throughout the years, Fergie has done more good than bad with his approach on the matter.
The introduction of a young player was almost never a smooth one under Ferguson. Players were tried in different positions all the time, they were sent back to the reserves or the U-21s for a long period after a single bad performance and they generally had to fight hard to retain their place in the first team. Fletcher is a fine example of that, he was often tried on the right wing and he spent a lot of time on the bench until he became an important player for us.
The only time we saw Ferguson promoting half of the academy in the first team was the famous class of '92. But those players were oozing with quality and they were also helped massively by having teammates such as Cantona, Keane, Schmwichel, Bruce, Pallister, Irwin etc. In any other case Ferguson had made very hard the right to wear the shirt and you had to earn his trust to become a member of the first team...
... which is frankly the opposite to what we're doing now. Throwing youngsters in the deep end when the team looks directionless on the pitch won't benefit either the team or these young players in the long term. It's nice to have something nice to talk about this season but we really shouldn't be relying on Martial and Rashford to carry the whole attack or TFM to deal with the opposition's most dangerous player on a regular basis.
This alone indicates bad planning. And it was under LvG when we had threads on this forum discussing the possibility of a match squad without a single acedemy player in it. Therefore i think it's mostly LvG, who has nothing else to show for and Mourinho haters (it's their right) who keep banging that drum.
Honestly, you should be thanking me for my criticism. Hopefully you learn from your mistakes moving forward. Are you offended by the word shit? I'm really sorry if you are. Have a nice day lad!
You're a pretty pointless poster that can't make a constructive argument. I hope we don't have to converse again. The other posters that wanted to debate absolutely blew you out of the water as they, y'know had a point to make. You had none and I'm starting to think that maybe you're 15/16 years of age. Anyhow, have a good one.
I had fun talking to you as well, you really are a terrific debater!
I am indeed unlike yourself. No point to make Jeff.
Rashford, Varella and CBJ were all played due to an injury crisis, TFM played himself in to contention through consistent performances far exceeding the level of reserve team football, but to award the credit for their emergence to LVG is an insult to the youth team setup who, led by the excellent Warren Joyce (and Ole before him), have been working wonders with the youngsters currently at the club. Evidence to that fact is noticeable through the way in which all of the above mentioned players have adapted to first team football like ducks to water. They play the game with absolute confidence, totally assured in their ability to influence the game and without fear of making a mistake - a stark contrast to the first team players who, unfortunately for them, have been "philosophised" (is that even a word?!) to the point of looking like they are ready to shit a brick the very moment they pick up the ball.
The youngsters coming through the club are still relatively untouched by LVG and his philosphical process crap, let's keep it that way by getting rid of him before he philosophises them too.
P.S
Attempting to figure out the plural for philosophy has given me a head ache.
You got me, I bow to your intellect.
Cheers mate. Anyhow, hope LvG is gone soon.
Jeff...all he did was talk about a hypothetical situation. I don't really understand your point here
He could have just stuck Memphis and Martial upfront or gone out and bought a striker and a full back in January, instead he chooses to play TFM and Rashford week in and week out. Lingard for one wouldn't have sniffed the first team under Fergie, Mourinho or any such manager and quickly been shifted out of the club considering his age and the injury he sustained last year, yet he is penciled in as a starter when fit, making vital contributions in important games.
Placing that amount of trust in younger players is a massive risk for any manager let alone someone trying to save his job and working on a 3 year timeline but yet he is doing it. Calling it disingenuous to give him credit is very daft. He has infact remained consistent in saying that he had sold most of the mediocre senior players just so he could give consistent chances to youth from the very first day after the transfer deadline. There wouldn't be a Rashford, TFM or Lingard if Welbeck, Van Persie, Rafael and Hernandez were still hanging around.
And this is why I want him gone.
Also, it is absolutely clear that he is a 4th/5th place manager. He is not a manager who can win the EPL.
It would be interesting if somebody asked him this direct question, "do you think you can win the league next year, given that you have had 2 tries and fell well short?" AND "if the answer is yes, what will you do differently, to prevent a repeat of the 4th/5th place he got in the first 2 seasons".
I hear ya.
That is a fair opinion, as I said in my post.
I don't really think Klopp is a good example. Up until a few weeks ago, he hadn't really performed anything of note with Liverpool. Now that he plays two good matches (Arsenal and Borussia), everyone is suddenly lyrical. We had a similar run of results at the end of the season under LVG last year. Even this year we had some great results (matches against Arsenal at home and City away spring to mind), where we beat teams that in my opinion have much more quality than we do. Average players such as Young and Fellaini both have flourished at times, before being injury-struck.
At this point it is all very inconsistent, I agree with you. We have to ask ourselves: is this due to the manager or due to the players? Probably both contribute, I think LVG wanted too much too soon tactics-wise, but with the injuries we have and the inconsistent form of some of the players our current position in the league is not a very strange one. Should Manchester United not strive to do better? Of course, we have the finances and are (both historically and fanbase-wise) too big of a club to stay at this position multiple seasons in a row. In the end, I do not believe in sacking a manager that has proven to be very successful in the past as long as the players still stand behind him. We have a lot of potential and the fact that all these players are currently playing means that they will develop. On matchday it may often look bad, but we get to see an entire new team being built and that is were I draw satisfaction from.
True, but many are still defending him like sliced bread. Can't let that sh*t go.
So why didn't he place Rashford in the starting XI when we were playing Wolfsburg (instead of throwing on Nick fecking Powell). Or play TFM in December during that horrendous run when we needed some defensive solidarity. He played them because he had to due to injury problems, not because he had a plan in mind and effected that plan in any coherent manner. Getting out the deadwood or not, Rashford or TFM would not have played had not the injuries been so severe. Lingard? I like him but please, he is far from first XI material and I will be happy to wager with you that he is the first one to make way from the first XI next year when we refresh the squad. If your point is that LVG has been a good manager overall, I won't dispute that. I also won't disagree that he has given youngster chances but not to the extent that it's entirely by design. But to say he has been a good manager for United as far as results are concerned, then we will need to disagree.
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Me too, just hope we still win the FA cup.
I get that, I really do esp the point about drawing satisfaction from seeing a new team being built. But honestly I can't accept the argument that LVG was brought in simply to build a team, a foundation of a dynasty for Giggs or someone else. If that's the case I would very much doubt he would have any targets to achieve. But we all know he does and he has not met them this year. By his own admission we should be fighting for 3rd and be deep in the CL. Not this state of affairs. Not a team with poor results with even worse performances. There just seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel. Too many false dawns and he has exhausted most of the fans goodwill and trust.
Definitely, sure all thinks considered, I don't think it'll have much of a bearing on whether he stays or not. If we get top four and win it then I'm sure it'll be used as one of the reasons for keeping him on. No top four and just the FA Cup, I'm not so sure. He just seems like a man that's confident he'll be here next season. Lets hope for the future of the club, he's a goner no matter what.
To be fair to LVG, if Messi got 39 in 32, he'd be praised.
Would be interesting to see the reactions if we lost to Villa tomorrow with one shot on target.
I can really see it happening tbh, which says it all.
Well, never say never. However, I do think we will win comfortably, whatever that will mean. If we do lose, well I think Woody wouldn't have a leg to stand on....that wouldn't be just one sausage Fergie would throw....
Nah, Villa really do epitomise the word shit.
Yeah, probably gone no matter what. Too bad as he is an entertaining character at the least.
I don't have any confidence that he'll be gone and fully expect him here next season. Just my perception of things but I hope I'm wrong. Can't say I find him entertaining, either; I haven't watched any of his press conferences / interviews in months now as I'm thoroughly sick of the man. We have regressed since last season which was bad enough and yet, he seems perfectly safe in his role, I feel it's gone well beyond a joke at this stage.
I don't find Van Gaal's stubbornness, delusion and plain idiocy entertaining at all. The rival fans probably love his small time bullshit, though.
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