LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

Do you want LVG sacked?


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I honestly didn't feel 'that' side played that well and was still expecting them to kick on with time which never happened(Ronaldo leaving as well). For instance the season before that we played better football.

They were formidable in the Champions League - remember that run from the Milan defeat in 07 (with an injury depleted defence) to the final in Rome 2 years later. All the while winning by far the strongest league in Europe.
 
It was the year before Ronaldo left though, I thought? The same year we won the league and CL?

Yeah I know I'm just saying the team never reached their full potential. The summer after when he left we should have been trying to hit the level Barcelona was at but instead we didn't invest in our midfield and replaced Ronaldo with Valencia when Ribery was the obvious replacement.
 
The problem is most fans want Maureen. A man that looked like death, was unable to inspire a dog to eat his food and almost overseen the worst slump from a championship winning team since god knows when! Zero passion from the guy apart from blaming everyone from medics to ...have I missed anything..

You missed his unparalleled list of trophies won over the last 12 or so years. That's pretty important.
Guardiola, who is thought to be the best manager in the World, has fewer trophies, despite managing better teams, which included Bayern (who had just won the treble) and Barca (which contained the best player of all time).
Now, if Guardiola can win a league and CL double with MCFC, that'll be something and on part with what Jose did with Inter and Porto.
 
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I honestly didn't feel 'that' side played that well and was still expecting them to kick on with time which never happened(Ronaldo leaving as well). For instance the season before that we played better football.

I think there was a general feeling that we could probably upgrade in central midfield, but apart from that it was a formidable team. With Vidic, Rio and VDS we had one of the most solid defensive units in Europe, and were often clinical in attack when we needed to be. Granted, it was no match for Pep's Barca when they came along, but it was a remarkably consistent side from 06-09.
 
They were formidable in the Champions League - remember that run from the Milan defeat in 07 (with an injury depleted defence) to the final in Rome 2 years later. All the while winning by far the strongest league in Europe.

I'm just saying that team should have been equal to barca but we never got there. Phenomenal set of players we had.
 
@

I know he wanted to use academy players, but it has backfired to an extent. I am sure that when he decided this he was not expecting the number of injuries. He could have still bought a striker and a CB and filled the squad out with kids.

I agree that a CB was definitely needed, but at the same time, who was available? With the way Rashers has turned out I'm pleased we didn't buy another striker. I think the Shaw injury was not something that could be planned for and it has had the highest impact so far.

Good for him but we are 5th in the league. That should not be the objective because at the end of the day when he is asked to justify his position.. I am sure injures will be an excuse.

I don't believe fifth was ever the objective but, being objective, consider that there are 87 other professional clubs in England who would love to be fifth in the Prem, we're accustomed to better than that but as the saying goes you can't win 'em all. Injuries have hurt our consistency and Shaw's leg break is not something a club can realistically plan for. There's no denying these factors have hurt our performances this year.
 
Yeah I know I'm just saying the team never reached their full potential. The summer after when he left we should have been trying to hit the level Barcelona was at but instead we didn't invest in our midfield and replaced Ronaldo with Valencia when Ribery was the obvious replacement.

Yes, reinvesting that 80 million plus a share of profits would have got us 3 elite players (a Ribery type plus at least one top midfielder) to enable us to take on Barcelona. Unfortunately our great side coincided with the post-financial crisis high watermark of Glazer induced austerity.
 
Yeah I know I'm just saying the team never reached their full potential. The summer after when he left we should have been trying to hit the level Barcelona was at but instead we didn't invest in our midfield and replaced Ronaldo with Valencia when Ribery was the obvious replacement.
Ah, very true.
 
I agree that a CB was definitely needed, but at the same time, who was available? With the way Rashers has turned out I'm pleased we didn't buy another striker. I think the Shaw injury was not something that could be planned for and it has had the highest impact so far.



I don't believe fifth was ever the objective but, being objective, consider that there are 87 other professional clubs in England who would love to be fifth in the Prem, we're accustomed to better than that but as the saying goes you can't win 'em all. Injuries have hurt our consistency and Shaw's leg break is not something a club can realistically plan for. There's no denying these factors have hurt our performances this year.

Na that's rubbish we've spent ridiculous fee's and have a far greater annual turnover than the 87 teams. 5th is rubbish.
 
Whatever your views on LVG, you have to give him credit for promoting Rashford and Mensah, both of whom look fine prospects to me (as does Martial). I think you may have the beginning of something there to build on.

Did he promote Rashford and TFM, or did he actually have a choice when (because of his own choice to have a ridiculously thin squad) he had no one else to use due to the injury problems?
 
The points still remain. You have nothing to back up it wasn't planned. We have LVG on tape saying trimming the squad will help academy players this was at the end of last summers transfer window which backs up my assertions, not yours!

Poorly worded on my part. The point I was trying to make is that he had no idea which players he was making room for and hasn't (or very rarely has) played youth where injuries haven't forced his hand. So while culling the squad to it's (unacceptable and stupid) current size may have been part of a plan to give academy players a chance, it wasn't a case of him identifying our 2-3 best youngsters and slowly introducing them to the team on merit, it was more of a random number generator approach to this so called youth movement. I already mentioned Pereira as an example of one of our most talented youngsters, who hasn't been planned for specifically. TFM is another (didn't include him on the B list for Europe in january, then he explodes when injuries pile up to give him his chance). It's all very hap hazard and therefore I find it hard to give him much credit for it.
 
Did he promote Rashford and TFM, or did he actually have a choice when (because of his own choice to have a ridiculously thin squad) he had no one else to use due to the injury problems?

Fergie had chances to play Pogba and he rather infamously plugged in Park and Rafael in midfield. I mean LvG has looked to give chances to everyone from McNair to Keane, Bo-Jack, Blackett and Varela when a defender was injured. How many times did Fergie play Carrick or Fletcher in defense when in a similar situation? Not giving Van Gaal credit for things he has obviously done well is a bit dishonest, there's plenty of other things to criticize him for which are well deserved.
 
The only one who are deluded are those who think they are entitled to winning just because we are called "Manchester United". Standards have been dropping for years and years before LVG arrived. One can only conclude that when comparing the line-up of 07/08 with the one of five years later (12/13):
07/08:
---------------Tevez-----------------
Giggs----Rooney--------Ronaldo
-------Carrick-----Scholes-------
Evra---Vidic---Ferdinand--Brown

12/13
-----------------RVP
Young-----Rooney------Welbeck
---------Cleverly----Carrick
Evra----Vidic--Ferdinand---Rafael

In 07/08 we had Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo, who were all world-class at the time, they were replaced by utter mediocrity: Young, Welbeck and Cleverly. Then I'm not even talking about all players that were on the decline because they were aging (Ferdinand, Vidic etc.) who were also never properly replaced.

To get an idea of the magnitude of the rebuild, let's look at the full squad Fergie left behind and ask ourselves which of these would still have the quality to be definitive first eleven starters for Manchester United at this point in time (not filling, but guaranteed starters that could make the difference).
David de Gea: Definitely
Nemanja Vidic‎: Nope, had tons of injuries and has quit recently.
Phil Jones: Nope, squad player at best.
Chris Smalling: Yes, important player currently
Jonny Evans: Nope, West Brom seems to be his level
Rio Ferdinand: Has quit
Michael Keane: Nope
Patrice Evra: Maybe, but not with Shaw around.
Fábio: Nope
Alexander Buttner: Hell no
Antonio Valencia: Nope, squad player at best.
Rafael: Nope, very injury prone and has only played 17 matches in ligue 1 for Lyon.
Michael Carrick: In good shape yes, but seems to perform less consistent due to aging.
Anderson: Nope
Darren Fletcher: Nope
Tom Cleverley: Nope
Paul Scholes: quit
Ryan Giggs: quit
Shinji Kagawa: Maybe, but didn't seem to be able to handle the physicality of the league.
Ashley Young: Squad player, not guaranteed starter
Wilfried Zaha: Nope
Nani: Squad player, not guaranteed starter
Wayne Rooney: Seems to have lost his edge, let's keep it to a Maybe.
Nick Powell: Nope
Joshua King: Nope
Robin van Persie: Warming the bend at Fener, seems to have aged fast, so nope
Chicharito: Doing well at Bayer, but would not be more than a squad player here.
Danny Welbeck: Nope, not more than a squad player at best
Federico Macheda: Nope.

So Ferguson pretty much left us with: De Gea and Smalling, and if I'm stretching it: Carrick and Rooney. Both Carrick and Rooney will require replacement within the next two years. That means, over the course of 3 years, 7 to 9 players in first eleven had to be replaced, just to have a decent first eleven. Then I'm not even talking about having good quality players on the bench.

As we have seen this year, buying ready-made players such as Schweinsteiger doesn't solve a lot. Most of the money you name has been invested in potential, players that will likely make a difference in the future but are not yet world class now. Martial, Shaw, Depay are all examples. Is that money wasted? No, because two out of three seem to be making it (Depay is still a question mark). Will they improve our squad on the short term? Not very much, which is why we see these results.

LVG has made mistakes and maybe he doesn't fit MU as well as many of us had hoped. But he's still a top class manager, as he proved with the Netherlands at the WC before. Maybe we should start questioning that if two managers in a row cannot get the results fans want, then maybe it's actually because our first eleven is actually not yet good enough to get those results.

The fact you cite your own version of who should go or stay doesn't really matter. I don't disagree that LVG has been overall a good manager over the years. That said, he has not been a good manager with United. That I don't think you can deny. Point is, sometimes managers, however brilliant they are, simply do not work out with a particular club. Unfortunately that has happened here. You say the lack of quality players is to blame. Yes I agree to some extent. But you can't have it both ways. LVG had pretty average players in the Dutch team and took it to third place at the World Cup. He (rightly) took a lot of credit for that. Conversely, what has he done here - literally lurching along, justifying his existence with unconvincing must wins after every bad run, forcing the players to play insipid and lame football. What has he done to inspire average players to play better? Klopp seems to be a pretty good example of doing just that with arguably worse or equally average players.
 
Lot of energy and words being expended on something very obvious: the man's just not very good. 39 goals in 32 games, FFS.
 
Fergie had chances to play Pogba and he rather infamously plugged in Park and Rafael in midfield. I mean LvG has looked to give chances to everyone from McNair to Keane, Bo-Jack, Blackett and Varela when a defender was injured. How many times did Fergie play Carrick or Fletcher in defense when in a similar situation? Not giving Van Gaal credit for things he has obviously done well is a bit dishonest, there's plenty of other things to criticize him for which are well deserved.

No, I don't think I am being dishonest here. I can't deny that LVG has played youngsters or has professed to give them a chance. But to claim credit for giving lads like Rashford or TFM a chance is a bit disingenuous. You can tell me he contemplated promoting guys like Adnan, Pereira, Wilson and McNair into the first team but no way in hell he considered starting Rashford or TFM in the first XI. He played these guys because he HAD to. Not by any structured or coherent design.
 
Fergie had chances to play Pogba and he rather infamously plugged in Park and Rafael in midfield. I mean LvG has looked to give chances to everyone from McNair to Keane, Bo-Jack, Blackett and Varela when a defender was injured. How many times did Fergie play Carrick or Fletcher in defense when in a similar situation? Not giving Van Gaal credit for things he has obviously done well is a bit dishonest, there's plenty of other things to criticize him for which are well deserved.

The situation with Pogba has been discussed to death. The problem wasn't that Fergie could not detect his talent, the problem was Pogba's and his manager's attitude towards the club. Ferguson had a certain way of doing things, he wasn't always fair or right in his decisions but he had earned the right to make these calls at the club. In the end we lost a world class talent and people have every right to be pissed but, throughout the years, Fergie has done more good than bad with his approach on the matter.

The introduction of a young player was almost never a smooth one under Ferguson. Players were tried in different positions all the time, they were sent back to the reserves or the U-21s for a long period after a single bad performance and they generally had to fight hard to retain their place in the first team. Fletcher is a fine example of that, he was often tried on the right wing and he spent a lot of time on the bench until he became an important player for us.

The only time we saw Ferguson promoting half of the academy in the first team was the famous class of '92. But those players were oozing with quality and they were also helped massively by having teammates such as Cantona, Keane, Schmwichel, Bruce, Pallister, Irwin etc. In any other case Ferguson had made very hard the right to wear the shirt and you had to earn his trust to become a member of the first team...

... which is frankly the opposite to what we're doing now. Throwing youngsters in the deep end when the team looks directionless on the pitch won't benefit either the team or these young players in the long term. It's nice to have something nice to talk about this season but we really shouldn't be relying on Martial and Rashford to carry the whole attack or TFM to deal with the opposition's most dangerous player on a regular basis.

This alone indicates bad planning. And it was under LvG when we had threads on this forum discussing the possibility of a match squad without a single acedemy player in it. Therefore i think it's mostly LvG, who has nothing else to show for and Mourinho haters (it's their right) who keep banging that drum.
 
No it really wasn't and I stand by it. Everyone questions everyone on here, it would be pointless if they didn't. You just came across as juvenile and pedantic with no point to make. Oh no Jeff from the Internet doesn't like hypothetical scenarios on a football forum. Do you think I care? LvG gone or the FA Cup? LvG gone every day of the week for me and I won't change my mind on that. Long term, it would be much more beneficial for the club. If you disagree, then cool and also I really don't care.

Oh and for the record, the other people who questioned me, actually debated in a mature manner. You started off with the word respectful and ended up with stupid smilies in your posts and the word shit. Well done son, no point made and we're still here. The only 'foolish' one here is your good self. When I quote others I at least have a point to make. I get it, you don't like hypothetical scenarios, so what?

Honestly, you should be thanking me for my criticism. Hopefully you learn from your mistakes moving forward. Are you offended by the word shit? I'm really sorry if you are. Have a nice day lad!
 
Honestly, you should be thanking me for my criticism. Hopefully you learn from your mistakes moving forward. Are you offended by the word shit? I'm really sorry if you are. Have a nice day lad!

You're a pretty pointless poster that can't make a constructive argument. I hope we don't have to converse again. The other posters that wanted to debate absolutely blew you out of the water as they, y'know had a point to make. You had none and I'm starting to think that maybe you're 15/16 years of age. Anyhow, have a good one.
 
You're a pretty pointless poster that can't make a constructive argument. I hope we don't have to converse again. The other posters that wanted to debate absolutely blew you out of the water as they, y'know had a point to make. You had none and I'm starting to think that maybe you're 15/16 years of age. Anyhow, have a good one.

I had fun talking to you as well, you really are a terrific debater!
 
Did he promote Rashford and TFM, or did he actually have a choice when (because of his own choice to have a ridiculously thin squad) he had no one else to use due to the injury problems?

Rashford, Varella and CBJ were all played due to an injury crisis, TFM played himself in to contention through consistent performances far exceeding the level of reserve team football, but to award the credit for their emergence to LVG is an insult to the youth team setup who, led by the excellent Warren Joyce (and Ole before him), have been working wonders with the youngsters currently at the club. Evidence to that fact is noticeable through the way in which all of the above mentioned players have adapted to first team football like ducks to water. They play the game with absolute confidence, totally assured in their ability to influence the game and without fear of making a mistake - a stark contrast to the first team players who, unfortunately for them, have been "philosophised" (is that even a word?!) to the point of looking like they are ready to shit a brick the very moment they pick up the ball.

The youngsters coming through the club are still relatively untouched by LVG and his philosphical process crap, let's keep it that way by getting rid of him before he philosophises them too.

P.S

Attempting to figure out the plural for philosophy has given me a head ache.
 
No, I don't think I am being dishonest here. I can't deny that LVG has played youngsters or has professed to give them a chance. But to claim credit for giving lads like Rashford or TFM a chance is a bit disingenuous. You can tell me he contemplated promoting guys like Adnan, Pereira, Wilson and McNair into the first team but no way in hell he considered starting Rashford or TFM in the first XI. He played these guys because he HAD to. Not by any structured or coherent design.

He could have just stuck Memphis and Martial upfront or gone out and bought a striker and a full back in January, instead he chooses to play TFM and Rashford week in and week out. Lingard for one wouldn't have sniffed the first team under Fergie, Mourinho or any such manager and quickly been shifted out of the club considering his age and the injury he sustained last year, yet he is penciled in as a starter when fit, making vital contributions in important games.

Placing that amount of trust in younger players is a massive risk for any manager let alone someone trying to save his job and working on a 3 year timeline but yet he is doing it. Calling it disingenuous to give him credit is very daft. He has infact remained consistent in saying that he had sold most of the mediocre senior players just so he could give consistent chances to youth from the very first day after the transfer deadline. There wouldn't be a Rashford, TFM or Lingard if Welbeck, Van Persie, Rafael and Hernandez were still hanging around.
 
Lot of energy and words being expended on something very obvious: the man's just not very good. 39 goals in 32 games, FFS.

And this is why I want him gone.
Also, it is absolutely clear that he is a 4th/5th place manager. He is not a manager who can win the EPL.
It would be interesting if somebody asked him this direct question, "do you think you can win the league next year, given that you have had 2 tries and fell well short?" AND "if the answer is yes, what will you do differently, to prevent a repeat of the 4th/5th place he got in the first 2 seasons".
 
The fact you cite your own version of who should go or stay doesn't really matter. I don't disagree that LVG has been overall a good manager over the years. That said, he has not been a good manager with United. That I don't think you can deny. Point is, sometimes managers, however brilliant they are, simply do not work out with a particular club. Unfortunately that has happened here.
That is a fair opinion, as I said in my post.

You say the lack of quality players is to blame. Yes I agree to some extent. But you can't have it both ways. LVG had pretty average players in the Dutch team and took it to third place at the World Cup. He (rightly) took a lot of credit for that. Conversely, what has he done here - literally lurching along, justifying his existence with unconvincing must wins after every bad run, forcing the players to play insipid and lame football. What has he done to inspire average players to play better? Klopp seems to be a pretty good example of doing just that with arguably worse or equally average players.
I don't really think Klopp is a good example. Up until a few weeks ago, he hadn't really performed anything of note with Liverpool. Now that he plays two good matches (Arsenal and Borussia), everyone is suddenly lyrical. We had a similar run of results at the end of the season under LVG last year. Even this year we had some great results (matches against Arsenal at home and City away spring to mind), where we beat teams that in my opinion have much more quality than we do. Average players such as Young and Fellaini both have flourished at times, before being injury-struck.
At this point it is all very inconsistent, I agree with you. We have to ask ourselves: is this due to the manager or due to the players? Probably both contribute, I think LVG wanted too much too soon tactics-wise, but with the injuries we have and the inconsistent form of some of the players our current position in the league is not a very strange one. Should Manchester United not strive to do better? Of course, we have the finances and are (both historically and fanbase-wise) too big of a club to stay at this position multiple seasons in a row. In the end, I do not believe in sacking a manager that has proven to be very successful in the past as long as the players still stand behind him. We have a lot of potential and the fact that all these players are currently playing means that they will develop. On matchday it may often look bad, but we get to see an entire new team being built and that is were I draw satisfaction from.
 
Lot of energy and words being expended on something very obvious: the man's just not very good. 39 goals in 32 games, FFS.

True, but many are still defending him like sliced bread. Can't let that sh*t go.
He could have just stuck Memphis and Martial upfront or gone out and bought a striker and a full back in January, instead he chooses to play TFM and Rashford week in and week out. Lingard for one wouldn't have sniffed the first team under Fergie, Mourinho or any such manager and quickly been shifted out of the club considering his age and the injury he sustained last year, yet he is penciled in as a starter when fit, making vital contributions in important games.

Placing that amount of trust in younger players is a massive risk for any manager let alone someone trying to save his job and working on a 3 year timeline but yet he is doing it. Calling it disingenuous to give him credit is very daft. He has infact remained consistent in saying that he had sold most of the mediocre senior players just so he could give consistent chances to youth from the very first day after the transfer deadline. There wouldn't be a Rashford, TFM or Lingard if Welbeck, Van Persie, Rafael and Hernandez were still hanging around.

So why didn't he place Rashford in the starting XI when we were playing Wolfsburg (instead of throwing on Nick fecking Powell). Or play TFM in December during that horrendous run when we needed some defensive solidarity. He played them because he had to due to injury problems, not because he had a plan in mind and effected that plan in any coherent manner. Getting out the deadwood or not, Rashford or TFM would not have played had not the injuries been so severe. Lingard? I like him but please, he is far from first XI material and I will be happy to wager with you that he is the first one to make way from the first XI next year when we refresh the squad. If your point is that LVG has been a good manager overall, I won't dispute that. I also won't disagree that he has given youngster chances but not to the extent that it's entirely by design. But to say he has been a good manager for United as far as results are concerned, then we will need to disagree.
 
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That is a fair opinion, as I said in my post.


I don't really think Klopp is a good example. Up until a few weeks ago, he hadn't really performed anything of note with Liverpool. Now that he plays two good matches (Arsenal and Borussia), everyone is suddenly lyrical. We had a similar run of results at the end of the season under LVG last year. Even this year we had some great results (matches against Arsenal at home and City away spring to mind), where we beat teams that in my opinion have much more quality than we do. Average players such as Young and Fellaini both have flourished at times, before being injury-struck.
At this point it is all very inconsistent, I agree with you. We have to ask ourselves: is this due to the manager or due to the players? Probably both contribute, I think LVG wanted too much too soon tactics-wise, but with the injuries we have and the inconsistent form of some of the players our current position in the league is not a very strange one. Should Manchester United not strive to do better? Of course, we have the finances and are (both historically and fanbase-wise) too big of a club to stay at this position multiple seasons in a row. In the end, I do not believe in sacking a manager that has proven to be very successful in the past as long as the players still stand behind him. We have a lot of potential and the fact that all these players are currently playing means that they will develop. On matchday it may often look bad, but we get to see an entire new team being built and that is were I draw satisfaction from.

I get that, I really do esp the point about drawing satisfaction from seeing a new team being built. But honestly I can't accept the argument that LVG was brought in simply to build a team, a foundation of a dynasty for Giggs or someone else. If that's the case I would very much doubt he would have any targets to achieve. But we all know he does and he has not met them this year. By his own admission we should be fighting for 3rd and be deep in the CL. Not this state of affairs. Not a team with poor results with even worse performances. There just seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel. Too many false dawns and he has exhausted most of the fans goodwill and trust.
 
Me too, just hope we still win the FA cup.

Definitely, sure all thinks considered, I don't think it'll have much of a bearing on whether he stays or not. If we get top four and win it then I'm sure it'll be used as one of the reasons for keeping him on. No top four and just the FA Cup, I'm not so sure. He just seems like a man that's confident he'll be here next season. Lets hope for the future of the club, he's a goner no matter what.
 
Would be interesting to see the reactions if we lost to Villa tomorrow with one shot on target.

Well, never say never. However, I do think we will win comfortably, whatever that will mean. If we do lose, well I think Woody wouldn't have a leg to stand on....that wouldn't be just one sausage Fergie would throw....
 
Definitely, sure all thinks considered, I don't think it'll have much of a bearing on whether he stays or not. If we get top four and win it then I'm sure it'll be used as one of the reasons for keeping him on. No top four and just the FA Cup, I'm not so sure. He just seems like a man that's confident he'll be here next season. Lets hope for the future of the club, he's a goner no matter what.

Yeah, probably gone no matter what. Too bad as he is an entertaining character at the least.
 
Yeah, probably gone no matter what. Too bad as he is an entertaining character at the least.

I don't have any confidence that he'll be gone and fully expect him here next season. Just my perception of things but I hope I'm wrong. Can't say I find him entertaining, either; I haven't watched any of his press conferences / interviews in months now as I'm thoroughly sick of the man. We have regressed since last season which was bad enough and yet, he seems perfectly safe in his role, I feel it's gone well beyond a joke at this stage.
 
I don't find Van Gaal's stubbornness, delusion and plain idiocy entertaining at all. The rival fans probably love his small time bullshit, though.
 
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