Maguire wasn't at fault for the goal

[arnie_ni]

He absolutely was at fault. The ball was near him, he could have cleared it easily if he didn't switch off.

Saying that, De Gea could (and should) have been more aggressive there and not allow the goal to happen.

I think de gea was just sitting on his heels expecting maguire to deal with it, which is poor enough but once maguire doesn't (for some unknown reason) he just has to come out and clean everything.

Unless de gea tells maguire to let it run, there is no scenario maguire should be leaving that especially when he knows the guy is behind him, he points him out to Williams.

 

[Sunny Jim]

It’s 99% on De Gea for me. Too slow to react, too cowardly when he finally does.

This.
I play footy from time to time and one thing i know is this: i own the ball in the box. I don't count on others to deal with it.

 

[Blueman]

There's so much wrng with that goal.

For a start there was a handball from Liepzig directing the ball into their path.
DeGea chickened out imo
The full back left the guy in the middle.
Maguire could have just booted it out surely?

 

[Deery]

Yup.

I just want to finish it with another classic. It's not Maguire this time, but the pattern is clear(their first):

I honestly have no idea how we defend counters - is it zonal, are we attacking the ball, do we stick with our man, who is passing on who. There is no communication, no responsibility, no shouting. It's a big clusterfeck and hope for the best.

Even if Maguire assumes the correct position, even when Lindelof is dragged and someone fills in, there are at least 2 others in our unit that are out of position and don't know what they are doing.

Another still for the 2nd goal. Ball out wide and this time it's on the far post (eerie similar to what I was getting for their third if that ball was over the top)

absolutely no one is minding him, no one knows there is a player attacking the far post or generally looking over his shoulder. Could've easily happened as a carbon copy for the third.

I see what you mean from the first still it looks like they were told to press the ball and all get dragged towards it and neglect the runners in behind. I still don’t know what McTominey is doing maybe because it’s 5 at the back he doesn’t think he has to get involved and Wan Bissaka shouldn’t be marking a man already marked.

For the second it’s just stupidity or lack of fast thinking to mark the man at the back post Matic and Shaw, but again it could be because of a back 5 Telles should be one the scorer Shaw isn’t in position and Matic should be further back.

 

[drunkmonkmeth]

Degea shoulda nabbed it but mcguire had the chance to hoof it away first.

 

[humdinger]

I kind of agree but he could and therefore should have cleared it. Probably scared of an own goal.

Vast majority of blame is DDG though.

 

[L1nk]

As I said in the lindelof thread.

Lindelof should stay central with Maguire to mark the 2 men in the box, leave the wide runner to Mctominay or Pogba to track down the side.

Why he feels the need to vacate the danger zone to track a man that is frankly very little threat at that point?

I've never known a central defender to make such odd decision making.

Yeah, but if you look at the gif above, Pogba and McTominay don't go with that guy, so if he doesn't he's basically free, this goal is not on Lindelof at all despite the agenda

 

[acnumber9]

Maguire should’ve cleared it and prevented the goal. De Gea should’ve come out and been braver and prevented the goal. Who you want to blame will come down to an individual preference. Personally, I think it’s easier just to clear the cross under no pressure. But then, I don’t like Maguire.

 

[James Peril]

I am shocked by the assessments above, quite incredible. A defender anticipates, then he reacts. His anticipation is covered, his reaction is that of a tank. Once the ball changes direction, his follow-up work is embarrassing. To clear him of any culpability is quite frankly incorrect, he is doing a terrible job as our main defender.

 

[eire-red]

I think either Pogba or McTominay should have gone with Nkunku. Once Lindelof gets dragged out, Maguire is 2 v 1 and he goes to mark Poulsen over Kluivert, who is clearly the bigger aerial threat.

Williams needs to be on the cover, and De Gea needs to smother that ball. It's bad organisation all around, a really bad goal to concede. I still can't figure out why De Gea started over Henderson, and why we took of both Telles and Shaw for Williams.

There's so much to pick apart from that game, it's hard to know where to begin.

 

[Trequarista10]

There are some great posts in this thread and some awful ones. You can see who doesnt understand football, or more specifically, doesn't understand defending.

I'm talking specifically about people who simplify the issue down to "Williams should have tracked Kluivert and covered Maguire". These same people who view things through such a simplistic perspective, would be the ones who would hammer Williams if he did that and their RWB found himself free at the back post. You know, like the first two goals that Leipzig scored.

The answer is far more nuanced. As a few others have mentioned, McTominay doesn't track Nkunku, Van de Beek doesn't track the RWB. There was no organization or plan or structure of how to deal with it. No individual player is to blame, its a collective lack of leadership, strategy and instruction. The end result was all game, and in many games this season, we have defenders marking two players at once. It's no coincidence we concede a ton of goals.

 

[El Zoido]

Lack of leaders on the pitch, only really Bruno. Nobody wants to stand up and be counted. Bruno might as well find another club at this rate, instead of sticking with these jokers. Fed up of us being a laughing stock.

 

[Harry190]

It really does not matter since they do not learn from their mistakes.

 

[RedDevil@84]

He’s one of the most hated United played I’ve ever seen

He has equally large number of fans on forum who pin all the blame on Lindelof and De Gea and Ole and say Maguire is not at fault.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Yeah, but if you look at the gif above, Pogba and McTominay don't go with that guy, so if he doesn't he's basically free, this goal is not on Lindelof at all despite the agenda

There is no agenda, just telling it how it is. The danger is in the centre of the goalmouth not the man Lindelof chases after. The fact he left meant Maguire then moved to the front post which gave Kluivert the room to score. If he just stayed in the centre even if the passed the ball to the other guy, Lindelof could have moved over.

 

[jeepers]

Maguire was at fault for this. Why leave the ball if you did not get a GK call or if you’re unsure. Defending 101 would be to affect the ball and try to clear it. It seemed like he thought he got a GK call but evidently he didn’t.

He was probably afraid/worried about possibly scoring an OG so left it.

De Gea should’ve have done much much better to make himself bigger. But he wouldn’t have been in that position if Maguire had made the right decision.

Too many assumptions and poor decisions made by our players.

However, overall game was lost with Ole’s tactics, formation, shape and decisions.

 

[EasyE]

All De Gea. Won't come off his line for nothing. Strange keeper. Godly saves mixed with a wimpish attitude for managing the box. Never changed.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Williams was marking his guy not hit fault, that one is 100% on Maguire and De Gea. For some stupid reason Maguire lets the ball pass instead of clearing it, I guess he tought there was no one behind him and De Gea as always stays at his line waiting for his CBs to bail him out, any top keeper would have got that ball before the striker reached it. A proper shit circus.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I actually think he was smart not to try to touch it as it probably would have been an own goal.

 

[eire-red]

Williams was marking his guy not hit fault, that one is 100% on Maguire and De Gea. For some stupid reason Maguire lets the ball pass instead of clearing it, I guess he tought there was no one behind him and De Gea as always stays at his line waiting for his CBs to bail him out, any top keeper would have got that ball before the striker reached it. A proper shit circus.

Williams was definitely at fault as well, they all were. He didn't make a decision, he was stuck between two players and couldn't make his mind up. The reality is the RB or whoever was coming in at the back post has a lot more to do than Kluivert to score in that situation. Maguire couldn't mark both Poulsen and Kluivert at the same time. Once Maguire went to Poulsen, Williams needs to be anticipating the worst case scenario that he misses the ball.

It's harsh on Williams, but you have to ask what he was doing on the pitch at all. Very strange decision from Ole.

 

[berbatrick]

The ball was within the swing of his foot, I have no idea why you don't clear at that point.

 

[lsd]

Maguire was horrible and is horrible and so is Lindelof.

The fact Ole is forced into playing two defensive midfielders every game sums up his feelings on his defenders.

He doesn't trust them and he shouldn't.

We are never going to be a top team when we have to sacrifice creative players in order to protect a garbage defence which is what we have to do.

 

[Fussmeister]

The deflection takes a weird path, not sure Maguire would have caught that. And kluivert starts his run after realise that Maguire wont get it. For me Dave is the one to blame here, so slow to react

 

[Ubik]

Maguire wasn't great, but yeah, that's on De Gea.

 

[Irwin99]

A collective mess really. Lindelof with the hideous pass, the ball takes a deflection on a cross but Harry didn't need to put the breaks on and let it get through, and De Gea with the bravery of a mouse (which we've seen WAY too often in his United career....think back to the end of Ole's first 6 months)

All share the blame. In fact you could say every defender made a mistake for all 3 goals.

 

[Rob Bowman]

He did the right thing by going to the intended target of the cross but the ball took a deflection.

Williams should have been covering the man behind him.

DDG should have been stronger and swept up the loose ball.

Mate, when in doubt put it out is the oldest defending rule in the book.

Unless he clearly hears DeGea call for the ball here he should cut the ball off and keep things safe. DeGea is late to react because Maguire should have dealt with it. Sorry Maguire looks a lost and confused school boy here. I am not saying DeGea is blameless as he should have told Maguire what to do, but without any direction every defender KNOWS not to let a ball thru to the center of the pitch dead middle infront of goal.

 

[Greck]

A collective mess really. Lindelof with the hideous pass, the ball takes a deflection on a cross but Harry didn't need to put the breaks on and let it get through, and De Gea with the bravery of a mouse (which we've seen WAY too often in his United career....think back to the end of Ole's first 6 months)

All share the blame. In fact you could say every defender made a mistake for all 3 goals.

They all violated the basic rule for dealing with crosses at their respective positions.

This is hilariously as bad as when they all went up for that corner thinking someone else was going to handle the defence. There's no leadership communication in that backline

 

[Andycoleno9]

I think it is Lindelof's mistake. Or Pogba's. Maybe even Martial's.
I refuse to blame 80mil defender for not doing basic defending

 

[led_scholes]

He made a movement towards the ball and then decided to let it run. He is not a 16 years old inexperienced kid, playing out of position.
DDG is in fault too for not commanding the area sufficiently. Maguire should have done the basic thing, but DDG should have also shouted something like Clear!. We have conceded so many goals the last years because of miscommunication.

 

[harms]

I just want to finish it with another classic. It's not Maguire this time, but the pattern is clear(their first):

I honestly have no idea how we defend counters - is it zonal, are we attacking the ball, do we stick with our man, who is passing on who. There is no communication, no responsibility, no shouting. It's a big clusterfeck and hope for the best.

Even if Maguire assumes the correct position, even when Lindelof is dragged and someone fills in, there are at least 2 others in our unit that are out of position and don't know what they are doing.

That's mostly on Ole to be fair (as is our whole first time) – that's not to say that he's the only one to blame, individually players were atrocious as well.

Ole's 5-3-2 is usually saved for big games where he uses man-marking (it probably should be called "personal pressing" or something like that to distinct it from the original Gentile-like man-marking). Nagelsmann's starting XI with a back 5 & no real strikers (both Olmo and Forsberg are midfielders that often drop back; he played the same trick in the game against Bayern a few days ago, although they've used a back 4) completely broke Ole's system as at least 2 of our defenders didn't have any direct opponents to mark, while the rest played according to a man-marking system, as did our midfielders & forwards...

Plus, Nkunku & Sabitzer were both overloading the wings when a cross-field pass was coming, which cased us an insane amount of trouble (mostly on our right). Look at this – Olmo is occupying all three of our center backs, while Wan-Bissaka is spread between 2 players. Even at his best day it's a nearly impossible task, and Wan-Bisakka probably had the worst ever day of his professional career. Sorry for captions in Russian, it's not my picture, but I think Angelino, AWB and Nkunku are clearly recognizable.

In your picture the same is happening on the other flank and Sabitzer is about to make a cross-field pass. Telles has to cover both Sabitzer & Haidara, Matic comes in to help, Shaw as well... and then both Forsberg & Olmo somehow create a numerical advantage in the middle because so many of our players are torn between the ball, different attackers, the zones that they should cover and the defensive shape that they have to retain somehow.

 

[arthurka]

I for one think this defense with slow CB's would benefit from having a keeper who sweeps. But also an I the only one who thinks the ball is to far away from Harry to get to it?

 

[SAFMUTD]

Williams was definitely at fault as well, they all were. He didn't make a decision, he was stuck between two players and couldn't make his mind up. The reality is the RB or whoever was coming in at the back post has a lot more to do than Kluivert to score in that situation. Maguire couldn't mark both Poulsen and Kluivert at the same time. Once Maguire went to Poulsen, Williams needs to be anticipating the worst case scenario that he misses the ball.

It's harsh on Williams, but you have to ask what he was doing on the pitch at all. Very strange decision from Ole.

If Williams does that he would had been caught in the same situation as AWB in the first goal, leaving his man wide open to go help the CB. Each defender has his man, you can't assume the CB will feck up and go help him until he actually does otherwise youll leave your man wide open.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's mostly on Ole to be fair (as is our whole first time) – that's not to say that he's the only one to blame, individually players were atrocious as well.

Ole's 5-3-2 is usually saved for big games where he uses man-marking (it probably should be called "personal pressing" or something like that to distinct it from the original Gentile-like man-marking). Nagelsmann's starting XI with a back 5 & no real strikers (both Olmo and Forsberg are midfielders that often drop back; he played the same trick in the game against Bayern a few days ago, although they've used a back 4) completely broke Ole's system as at least 2 of our defenders didn't have any direct opponents to mark, while the rest played according to a man-marking system, as did our midfielders & forwards...

Plus, Nkunku & Sabitzer were both overloading the wings when a cross-field pass was coming, which cased us an insane amount of trouble (mostly on our right). Look at this – Olmo is occupying all three of our center backs, while Wan-Bissaka is spread between 2 players. Even at his best day it's a nearly impossible task, and Wan-Bisakka probably had the worst ever day of his professional career. Sorry for captions in Russian, it's not my picture, but I think Angelino, AWB and Nkunku are clearly recognizable.

In your picture the same is happening on the other flank and Sabitzer is about to make a cross-field pass. Telles has to cover both Sabitzer & Haidara, Matic comes in to help, Shaw as well... and then both Forsberg & Olmo somehow create a numerical advantage in the middle because so many of our players are torn between the ball, different attackers, the zones that they should cover and the defensive shape that they have to retain somehow.

aye, good example as well.

Nagelsmann starting without a striker really shook our plan from the start, especially considering they were chasing the score. We should've adjusted and moved on from a back 5 right from the off, or at least after we conceded second. It's a miracle that Forsberg didn't finish his change and that we didn't concede from the disallowed goal. Yet in the same time the negative starting lineup didn't allow us to do many changes in the middle of the game, as we had 5 defenders and 2 DM's. Practically impossible to gain control back in midfield. Yet we didn't make a sub after 2-0 in the first, which was also wrong decision, given how the game could've been easily lost before HT.

We gave them the middle of the park - easily seen from your screen, but the more surprising part is why didn't AWB/Telles/Shaw cover wide to not allow their midfielders to overload the flanks or at least mark their man when there is a ball over the top. We started with 2 left backs, yet in many cases they weren't comfortable defending in their zone which is really, really odd.

Still a fecking clusterfeck of a defensive organization 3 spare men in the back, no one is stepping up and when someone is dragged outside, no one is covering his zone.

Even from my screen for the first goal - they are on a counter coming fast and Lindelof has the perfect position anticipating a cross and a pace - right next to the forward ,in front of him ready to intercept. AWB then for some reason decides to run along and double mark him, completely losing his man and his sense of awareness

Playing in a Sunday league we look better organized when we defend and don't allow these situations when 2-3 defenders are on one attacker and acres of space for the others, even in zone.

There's also another thing - for their disallowed goal Maguire rushed forward for offside trap, yet, some didn't follow, others like Matic were rooted to the spot and generally he was like 5 yards away from the other defenders. And that "organization" is not on DDG, this time, but he's responsible to make that offside trap and sync it with the rest of the defence..

 

[harms]

I for one think this defense with slow CB's would benefit from having a keeper who sweeps.

I don't think that anyone argues that – in fact, I doubt that De Gea has even one person on redcafe left who still defends him and his way of playing. Ideally, you shouldn't have any of those issues if you're building a good proactive modern defense though – neither a strictly goal-line hugging keeper nor a slow (and without any outstanding qualities that would compensate for that – like old Blanc or Vidic*) center back should be in it.

* he wasn't that slow though

 

[Verminator]

I'm not a fan of Harry but, I don't think he can reach that.
His momentum is geared towards the tackle and the deflection gives him no time to adapt to the new trajectory.

Williams is slowish to react, but I doubt he would have got there anyway.

That goal is all about a cowardly goalkeeper, rooted to his line, who avoids contact, and turns away from the ball.

Pogba, rightly got slated for shielding his face, and giving away a penalty.
What DeGea does there is infinitely worse, and, as far as I am concerned, unforgivable.

 

[Zen86]

I've watched the video many times and also during the game. He slowed down deliberately and left it behind him with zero awareness what is happening. As I said - IMO he didn't knew where Kluivert was (missed him completely) and thought either DDG(didn't realize he was rooted to the spot) or Williams will pick up the loose ball.

You can also see the nice little hop he made after he just realized it was a bad decision to leave it behind.

I'm not saying DDG is absolved from blame, nor Williams, nor the entire defence/midfield, but Maguire should clear that ball even throwing himself into it(although looking at how he slowed down IMO it was well within his range without sliding).

Personally I think he’s putting that in the back of the net if he stretches for it. It’s not this “easy clearance” that people are trying to delude themselves with, otherwise he would’ve cleared it.

This witch-hunt is pointless either way. It happened, it’s time for people to get over it.

 

[MZX7]

Let's find more excuses for our 80-million, bang-average, arrested-in-Greece, timid-as-a-mouse English darling.

He doesn't defend crosses and does not command. He's not worth 40m to anyone with eyes.

Exactly. Just him being English saves him from the stick. Pathetic.

 

[Eli Zee]

The ball rolls past his right leg. If he swings his foot at it its cleared rather than rolls to Kluivert.

Its poor from Maguire and then De Gea bottles sweeping up after him.

One of these is an £80m defender, the other our best paid player. Says a lot.

Watch it in slow mo... he's not close enough to kick it unless he has stretchy legs

 

[lsd]

Watch it in slow mo... he's not close enough to kick it unless he has stretchy legs

He is not close enough because he makes no attempt to get close to it. It is disgraceful defending.

De Gea did not cover himself in glory but he has every right to expect his defence to deal with that ball before it gets too him

 

[MikeKing]

Well, if a ball deflects in front of the goal the keeper should be alerted and pick it up as quick as he possibly can. De Gea was caught on his heels sleeping. Imagine Van Djik letting that ball through, would Allison be there? Yes.