Manager Draft Final - Harms VS Edgar

[antohan]

Who would you use for it? Play Furino instead? He's hardly helping with the height problem

No, I meant swapping Tardelli and Matthäus around. It's a bit shit, I know. TBH, if anything, Brio is sitting on the sidelines laughing his arse off here: "That was the point of me you wankers"

 

[Balu]

In theory I like the diamond. In this game, Furino really really shouldn't be the one defending against Gullit or Rijkaard. Those Dutch guys wouldn't even need to jump to score headers.

 

[harms]

What are you talking about?

I just said when you made the decision to pick Baggio - which I don't think you should have done - then you should have played that line up. Literally, I just said above that you should have played all four of Baggio, Batistuta, Platini and Boniek when you made the decision to pick Baggio.

What you've done here is just a complete overkill of defensive players with Gentile on the right along with three other centre backs. Brehme should clearly be there instead of Gentile IMO.

I'm talking about your overall approach, not today. It wouldn't be interesting if everyone would've had the same opinion though. I don't think that Brehme would've been better marker for Nedved than Gentile and if I wasn't going to man-mark Gentile I would've gone for an additional forward, not a wing-back.

 

[antohan]

Gentile will track Nedved, with Boniek doing a job on the full back. Like I said earlier, for me that is the bottle opener of the game - Maldini either has to be all out offensive to get rid of Boniek and I don't think the crosses it leads to will be half as dangerous as Boniek being completely free whenever Harms wins the ball.

....

He is perfectly set up for crosses really.

WTF? You just said Kohler would get beat by all three of them, then so would Scirea, and Bergomi is basically on the other side and away from the hotspot. How is he perfectly set up to deal with them? How are any crosses Maldini gets in less dangerous than Boniek on the ball running at Baresi (if Redondo hasn't done any covering)?

You are making no sense here, Nedved also would get crosses in, it's not like Gentile will magically disappear him from the game. He can limit him a good deal, but not erase him.

I'm just taking issue with the overall logic here, I think it's fundamentally flawed in that I don't think Kohler would make it that easy, nor would Scirea, or Zoff.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Gentile will track Nedved, with Boniek doing a job on the full back. Like I said earlier, for me that is the bottle opener of the game - Maldini either has to be all out offensive to get rid of Boniek and I don't think the crosses it leads to will be half as dangerous as Boniek being completely free whenever Harms wins the ball.

What about Redondo there? From overrated, to underated to totally ignored?

 

[Annahnomoss]

In theory I like the diamond. In this game, Furino really really shouldn't be the one defending against Gullit or Rijkaard. Those Dutch guys wouldn't even need to jump to score headers.

I love that the Dutch trio are finally showing what a bitch they were to face. You have to coop with their skill level, their physicality and their damn height(read overall greatness on crosses). Incredibly hard to find a defense and central midfield capable of doing that.

 

[antohan]

The obvious advantage with Brehme is he offers so much going forward as well as being a solid defender. Three goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals shows he'd have the mettle for this type of needly affair.

Yeah, I wouldn't have picked him ahead of Kohler, possibly Matthäus, definitely Batistuta relative to Rossi... and I would be playing a back four anyway, but if it's a back five Brehme is a no-brainer. I do get harms' point though that two wingbacks isn't true to Trap, which is fair enough.

 

[antohan]

In theory I like the diamond. In this game, Furino really really shouldn't be the one defending against Gullit or Rijkaard. Those Dutch guys wouldn't even need to jump to score headers.

It's a fundamental flaw, they are all midgets! The lot of them!

You get my post now? The one saying "I thought that was the point of Matthäus". NOT.

 

[Balu]

I love that the Dutch trio are finally showing what a bitch they were to face. You have to coop with their skill level, their physicality and their damn height(read overall greatness on crosses). Incredibly hard to find a defense and central midfield capable of doing that.

To be fair, that late 70's/early 80's Juve side is freakishly small. Pep's Barca side were giants in comparison.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Now there's a thought... I did feel Matthäus starting ahead of Furino somewhat weakened the defensive part of the midfield (I'm not underrating Matthäus here, just feel his Inter persona was better pulling strings and his short self isn't very handy here).

What about this?

Yup this this and this.

Oh, Furino is an interesting one. A diamond with Boniek switching to the left right flank and Batistuta as the focal point of the attack?

EDIT sorry for the left-right madness

Wouldn't really call it a diamond but a lopsided version of a 4-3-3.

Think Furino is the key here to freeing up Matthäus and more importantly let Platini weave his magic further up the pitch, where both his vision and goalscoring ability will come to the fore. Also gives you more steel and a better handle on midfield IMO.

 

[Gio]

Yeah, I wouldn't have picked him ahead of Kohler, possibly Matthäus, definitely Batistuta relative to Rossi... and I would be playing a back four anyway, but if it's a back five Brehme is a no-brainer. I do get harms' point though that two wingbacks isn't true to Trap, which is fair enough.

Well aye, although it was a true 3-5-2 with wing-backs by the time he took over Italy for Euro 2000.

 

[Balu]

It's a fundamental flaw, they are all midgets! The lot of them!

You get my post now? The one saying "I thought that was the point of Matthäus". NOT.

Should have picked Hamann instead of Matthäus. As stupid as it sounds, but he would be a good fit for the DM role in this game.

 

[Annahnomoss]

WTF? You just said Kohler would get beat by all three of them, then so would Scirea, and Bergomi is basically on the other side and away from the hotspot. How is he perfectly set up to deal with them? How are any crosses Maldini gets in less dangerous than Boniek on the ball running at Baresi (if Redondo hasn't done any covering)?

You are making no sense here, Nedved also would get crosses in, it's not like Gentile will magically disappear him from the game. He can limit him a good deal, but not erase him.

I'm just taking issue with the overall logic here, I think it's fundamentally flawed in that I don't think Kohler would make it that easy, nor would Scirea, or Zoff.

You're twisting what I said completely mate. I never said Kohler would get beat by all three of them I said he was worse than them and he is. But you don't have to be better on crosses than your opponent to do a damn good job on them to limit their ability to score. Especially with an all-time goalkeeper helping you out.

The skill gap between Scirea and Gullit/van Basten is too much to not lead to dangerous chances though. Rio/Vidic are probably not better at headers than Cristiano Ronaldo but they'd do a damn good job limiting his success over a game regardless as the skill difference is so fine.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Should have picked Hamann instead of Matthäus. As stupid as it sounds, but he would be a good fit for the DM role in this game.

Actually a really good shout, even though it would have been impossible to win votes in a draft with him.

 

[harms]

Wouldn't really call it a diamond but a lopsided version of a 4-3-3.

I get you mate

 

[Theon]

I don't think that Brehme would've been better marker for Nedved than Gentile and if I wasn't going to man-mark Gentile I would've gone for an additional forward, not a wing-back.

No one needs to man mark Nedved, he's not Pele. Again I'm not sure what's going on here. There are much better players on the pitch than Pavel Nedved.

You've got three centre backs on the pitch already, not just any centre backs either but Scirea/Kohler/Bergomi. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could look at that and think, "you know what, this back line is crying out for Claudio Gentile".

Brehme would clearly offer much more there, if you're playing a 3-5-2 it doesn't get much better than Cabrini/Kohler/Scirea/Bergomi/Brehme.

 

[antohan]

The whole midget thing gets sorted by re-arranging the other three and playing Tardelli on the left. Not ideal, but since Boniek is out right he won't be missed as much as his height would on the left. Furino can do the Benny Hill running around with Nedved instead.

 

[antohan]

Well aye, although it was a true 3-5-2 with wing-backs by the time he took over Italy for Euro 2000.

That wasn't a classic Trap side, just a function of what was best to do with the sort of player Italy had. With clubs you can buy and sell to put together your vision, with NTs you have to make do with the best combo of what's available.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I get you mate

Well I guess you can call it a diamond but I referred to it as a 4-3-3 as I would prefer to think of Platini, in that set up, as more of a forward than a midfielder.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

No one needs to man mark Nedved, he's not Pele. Again I'm not sure what's going on here. There are much better players on the pitch than Pavel Nedved.

You've got three centre backs on the pitch already, not just any centre backs either but Scirea/Kohler/Bergomi. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could look at that and think, "you know what, this back line is crying out for Claudio Gentile".

Brehme would clearly offer much more there, if you're playing a 3-5-2 it doesn't get much better than Cabrini/Kohler/Scirea/Bergomi/Brehme.

The idea would be, I suppose, that Edgar's midfield is a bit arse heavy, lacking a bit in terms of pure creativity: Nedved has an important role to play here as a creator of plays - and if you manage to suffocate him to a fair degree, you have done damage to Edgar's supply line, as it were.

Whether that is sound tactics or not depends, of course, on how crucial one thinks Nedved's playmaking would be in this set-up. But the idea itself isn't insane. Not in my opinion - it's a particular, tactical move based on Edgar's particular set-up - not really a reflection of Nedved's overall ability (it would indeed be absurd to single him out for a man marking job in any old set-up - but this isn't any old set-up).

 

[antohan]

You're twisting what I said completely mate. I never said Kohler would get beat by all three of them I said he was worse than them and he is. But you don't have to be better on crosses than your opponent to do a damn good job on them to limit their ability to score. Especially with an all-time goalkeeper helping you out.

The skill gap between Scirea and Gullit/van Basten is too much to not lead to dangerous chances though. Rio/Vidic are probably not better at headers than Cristiano Ronaldo but they'd do a damn good job limiting his success over a game regardless as the skill difference is so fine.

You said they were better and it would be a complete destruction, particularly with Rijkaard joining, not much twisting needed there. TBH, I fail to see how the "skill gap between Scirea and Gullit/MvB" (height/physique/jumping/heading, I assume) is any more significant than that of Batistuta vs. Baresi/Costacurta. It doesn't mean every cross is a goal though, clearly, or else someone would have worked that out back in the day.

 

[antohan]

Well I guess you can call it a diamond but I referred to it as a 4-3-3 as I would prefer to think of Platini, in that set up, as more of a forward than a midfielder.

Which is what having another midfielder accomplishes by releasing Matthäus to play his Inter role, Platini suddenly doesn't have the entire world on his shoulders.

 

[crappycraperson]

Why wouldn't Lothar not be free to make those forward runs now? 5 man defense allows him to do that. Those 5 should be enough for Nedved, Guilt and Basten.

 

[antohan]

@harms, this is gone as it stands, you may as well see whether you can lure any of the 13 chicken sitting on a draw. They are mostly managers with double points, wahey! Let's all bow down to their superior knowledge and decisiveness!

 

[antohan]

Why wouldn't Lothar not be free to make those forward runs now? 5 man defense allows him to do that. Those 5 should be enough for Nedved, Guilt and Basten.

You are talking about runs once on the ball, yes, he can do them. The point is most of the time he has a very clear and massive defensive role to fulfill, he is on the same side as both Rijkaard and Gullit (unless he is just meant to leave them for the defenders to stop in and around the box). Give that to someone else and he has a lot more freedom to influence the game and Platini even more so.

 

[harms]

@harms, this is gone as it stands, you may as well see whether you can lure any of the 13 chicken sitting on a draw. They are mostly managers with double points, wahey! Let's all bow down to their superior knowledge and decisiveness!

I totally forgot that I still can do the Furino formation

@Annahnomoss can you post this to OP? Sorry for being a tiresome contender.
I don't think that anyone scored so far anyway, but it seems inevitably that Van Basten will score the winner on 90+4 if I won't do anything.

@Joga Bonito thanks for the idea

 

[Joga Bonito]

The idea would be, I suppose, that Edgar's midfield is a bit arse heavy, lacking a bit in terms of pure creativity: Nedved has an important role to play here as a creator of plays - and if you manage to suffocate him to a fair degree, you have done damage to Edgar's supply line, as it were.

Whether that is sound tactics or not depends, of course, on how crucial one thinks Nedved's playmaking would be in this set-up. But the idea itself isn't insane. Not in my opinion - it's a particular, tactical move based on Edgar's particular set-up - not really a reflection of Nedved's overall ability (it would indeed be absurd to single him out for a man marking job in any old set-up - but this isn't any old set-up).

Agreed that Nedved has an important role to play here. You'd only have to look at the discussion on the Dutch trio's aerial dominance to comprehend the crucial roles that Nedved's and Cafu's service from the flanks play in this match.

However in saying that, there are still a few players out there playing an equally or arguably more important role in EAP's team. Be it Redondo's creativity from deep or Rijkaard's marauding runs from midfield or Gullit's general threat. If Nedved was an absolutely crucial aspect to EAPs team and the way he setup, like Cruyff or Maradona etc, then it would justify Gentile's inclusion.

As of such it isn't, with EAP's team possessing various threats of varying degrees all over the pitch. Not downplaying Nedved's role here but you won't exactly go 'Great, I've limited Nedved and got myself a huge tactical advantage here' esp with so many match winners and routes to the goal here. You can't really justify the Gentile on Nedved move here like a Vogts on Cruyff or Matthäus on Maradona etc. Harms could have used his resources better elsewhere than wasting special attention on one player, like strengthening his midfield with another body and freeing up his forwards for instance.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Hm. I reckon many of those managers would have refrained from voting rather than going for a draw, if the latter hadn't been an option. In other words, they actually think a draw is the likeliest outcome - it's not just a cop-out.

Having said that - looking beyond this draft, which is all but over - I can't see the "draw" option being a permanent fixture entirely free of the cop-out taint, so to speak. Perhaps the way to go is multiple alternative scorelines - but I suppose even then, voting "0-0" or "2-2" might be considered a cop-out.

Bit tricky, that one, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@harms NP mate. Great move imo.

@harms, this is gone as it stands, you may as well see whether you can lure any of the 13 chicken sitting on a draw. They are mostly managers with double points, wahey! Let's all bow down to their superior knowledge and decisiveness!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hold on, I was under the assumption that only 1 sub is allowed in a match.

How many are allowed @Annahnomoss ?

 

[crappycraperson]

You are talking about runs once on the ball, yes, he can do them. The point is most of the time he has a very clear and massive defensive role to fulfill, he is on the same side as both Rijkaard and Gullit (unless he is just meant to leave them for the defenders to stop in and around the box). Give that to someone else and he has a lot more freedom to influence the game and Platini even more so.

If it's just about being on that side. He can switch it with Tardelli. Unlikely that both Redondo or Rijkarrd would make a run forward at the same time.

 

[harms]

Hold on, I was under the assumption that only 1 sub is allowed in a match.

How many are allowed @Annahnomoss ?

Oh, 1 sub? I always assumed that 3 subs are allowed, like in a CL game, for example. I know feck all about draft rules though

 

[Gio]

Don't think it's ever been defined. 3 subs seems perfectly logical though.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Oh, 1 sub? I always assumed that 3 subs are allowed, like in a CL game, for example. I know feck all about draft rules though

I don't know for sure either mate. Vaguely recall, in one of the previous games I recall someone telling me that was the rule. Some of the older players would know better.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Don't think it's ever been defined. 3 subs seems perfectly logical though.

But after the strengths/weakness are debated in detail, this just wipes out any advantage gained by a manager till now.

Still, I'll go by Annah's call.

 

[antohan]

Of course there can be more than 1 sub, duh! Where did you get that idea from @Edgar Allan Pillow

BTW, @harms, I've done a bit of research (all hail PES stats!) and it turns out Platini is your man on the left of that diamond! Actually surprised at Tardelli's stats, always had the impression he was much bigger than that.

Matthäus 1,75 72 kg
Furino 1,72 69 kg
Tardelli 1,78 70 kg
Platini 1,79 73 kg
vs.
Redondo 1,86 75 kg
Desailly 1,85 82 kg
Rijkaard 1,90 87 kg
Gullit 1,90 83 kg
Nedved 1,77 69 kg

All of them have 50 in Keeper Skills.

I'd suggest EAP stops trying to play football and goes for the Kerlon foca tactic of playing keepy-uppy, just with headers, all the way past that midfield. Ignore Nedved, he is running around with Gentile/Furino, he has such stamina he was planning on tiring Gentile's bollocks off and feels a bit disappointed at having to restart the wearing down of his marker.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Why wouldn't Lothar not be free to make those forward runs now? 5 man defense allows him to do that. Those 5 should be enough for Nedved, Guilt and Basten.

I think Matthäus with 2 defensive monstrosities in Tardelli and Furino, with the latter being a holding midfielder frees him up more than his midfield duo role, where he is responsible for keeping an eye on midfield runners or Gullit dropping deep whilst being at the fore of the midfield battle with occasional support from Scirea who also has the duty of sweeping up.

 

[harms]

All of them have 50 in Keeper Skills.

just stop it don't

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What's that, a magic square?

 

[Gio]

But after the strengths/weakness are debated in detail, this just wipes out any advantage gained by a manager till now.

Still, I'll go by Annah's call.

Nah. The 24-hour voting window is the equivalent of a 90-minute match. Harms isn't going back to the 1st minute after he makes every sub. That's why we would have the score posted after every tactical or personnel change in the OP.