BlueMoonOutcast
Rag in Disguise
Pep Guardiola isn't perfect, but he's the only manager in history whose Champions League wins are ignored.
His wins are not being ignored, they are being openly discussed as not being enough for the privileged positions he's found himself in.Pep Guardiola isn't perfect, but he's the only manager in history whose Champions League wins are ignored.
I'm actually with you on this one. He's only 49 years old so he's plenty of time to add more to his total. Seems to be the thing on here that some players/managers are being compared to others who've completed their time in football. Regardless of the advantages Pep has had in his managerial career he's obviously a top class manager who'd have been a success in any era.Pep Guardiola isn't perfect, but he's the only manager in history whose Champions League wins are ignored.
I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).I'm actually with you on this one. He's only 49 years old so he's plenty of time to add more to his total. Seems to be the thing on here that some players/managers are being compared to others who've completed their time in football. Regardless of the advantages Pep has had in his managerial career he's obviously a top class manager who'd have been a success in any era.
As the City poster pointed out, he's won 2 CL titles which is exactly the same number as Ferguson won in his entire time as United manager. I don't recall him ever being criticized too much over it. It's not like he was short of a few bob to spend either.I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).
What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
It’s not easy though is it to get past 2 CLs. Only 3 Mgrs have done it but Pep is young. I think he will get at least 3I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).
What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
See the part about 'post Barcelona'.As the City poster pointed out, he's won 2 CL titles which is exactly the same number as Ferguson won in his entire time as United manager. I don't recall him ever being criticized too much over it. It's not like he was short of a few bob to spend either.
I think that beyond a certain point, "more resources" don't add much to a CL campaign unless you're talking about Messi or Ronaldo. What it does is allow you to challenge strongly on multiple fronts and Pep's been very successful in that. It's just that when you're playing against other elite teams in a knockout competition, the margin for error is so small. A poor 15 minutes can easily seal your fate. Of course, Pep hasn't always helped himself in the later stages of the CL with some unusual decisions on the pitch that didn't come off. Other times he's been screwed by VAR (or lack thereof ). He easily deserved at least one final with Bayern.I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).
What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
So we're only talking about 6 seasons then ? 5 of which the CL were won by the Spanish giants (4 Real & 1 Barca). Remember this is a Barcelona side that had added Suarez & Neymar to their already talented squad yet they only managed one CL win in that 6 years.See the part about 'post Barcelona'.
And almost no manager has had the resources Pep Guardiola had, financially (well, Man City).
Which is why none of those Barca managers, even Luis Enrique who won a fecking treble, are particularly looked on favourably...So we're only talking about 6 seasons then ? 5 of which the CL were won by the Spanish giants (4 Real & 1 Barca). Remember this is a Barcelona side that had added Suarez & Neymar to their already talented squad yet they only managed one CL win in that 6 years.
I'm pointing out that the strength of Spain's top 2 clubs were a significant factor in Guardiola failing to add to the 2 CL's he won when he was at Barcelona. It's irrelevant that successful managers at the Nou Camp were sacked. That just shows how high the expectations were at Real & Barca. Even now, failing to win the Champions League at either of those clubs means a very short shelf life for whoever's in charge.Which is why none of those Barca managers, even Luis Enrique who won a fecking treble, are particularly looked on favourably...
Not sure what argument you're making with that statement there.
Okay - here's a question...Klopp will have reached two European Cup finals, winning one, and will win the League in the last 3 seasons at Liverpool (plus however far they get in Europe).I'm pointing out that the strength of Spain's top 2 clubs were a significant factor in Guardiola failing to add to the 2 CL's he won when he was at Barcelona. It's irrelevant that successful managers at the Nou Camp were sacked. That just shows how high the expectations were at Real & Barca. Even now, failing to win the Champions League at either of those clubs means a very short shelf life for whoever's in charge.
very much agree. Esp “in addition to the incredible core... “Okay - here's a question...Klopp will have reached two European Cup finals, winning one, and will win the League in the last 3 seasons at Liverpool (plus however far they get in Europe).
Assuming Man City doesn't come close to winning the European Cup again (let's say knocked out by Real or in the next round at the latest - so no semi final appearance, yet again) and also don't win any further domestic Cups, are his two titles and multiple domestic cups better than Klopp's ruthlessly dominant league title and European Cup?
That's essentially what he is being judged against - yes I know resources aren't everything but they go a long way towards aiding the team. He has two league titles in four seasons, which is impressive when judged in terms of style etc, but I do think Man City would have expected more than two titles and domestic Cup domination in four seasons when they took on Pep and gave him the best part of a half a billion pounds (or is it more? I lost count) in addition to the incredible core (Aguero, De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Kompany) he already had at Man City.
It's just a relative thing we're judging him against - essentially against his own past successes and the resources he's been afforded.
With regards to relative judgement, Pep is held to a stupidly high standard that is impossible to maintain. Examples of even little things like Liverpool won a game 2-1 this season (vs Villa I think) and the narrative was comfortable win for Liverpool, the same weekend City beat Southmapton by the same score with more chances for and less chances given up and the narrative is lucky City, Pep's been found out etc...Okay - here's a question...Klopp will have reached two European Cup finals, winning one, and will win the League in the last 3 seasons at Liverpool (plus however far they get in Europe).
Assuming Man City doesn't come close to winning the European Cup again (let's say knocked out by Real or in the next round at the latest - so no semi final appearance, yet again) and also don't win any further domestic Cups, are his two titles and multiple domestic cups better than Klopp's ruthlessly dominant league title and European Cup?
That's essentially what he is being judged against - yes I know resources aren't everything but they go a long way towards aiding the team. He has two league titles in four seasons, which is impressive when judged in terms of style etc, but I do think Man City would have expected more than two titles and domestic Cup domination in four seasons when they took on Pep and gave him the best part of a half a billion pounds (or is it more? I lost count) in addition to the incredible core (Aguero, De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Kompany) he already had at Man City.
It's just a relative thing we're judging him against - essentially against his own past successes and the resources he's been afforded.
To be honest, KDB barely played last year and City still won the title. Don't think his absense is the main factor here but rather everyone else in bad form like you've indicated.City became a one-man (KDB) team this season. Most fans expect nothing from Otamendi and Gundogan but Sterling's been terrible since December, Zinchenko whole season, Bernardo's two levels below his 18/19 performances, Fernandinho's a DM ffs... And why exactly City signed Cancelo? Maybe he's a fine wing-back but in back four he's even worse than Danilo.
I mean all you had to do was beat Chelsea last weekWell done Man City - spent billion(s) to dominate League Cups. You should be proud of that right there.
Or Villa in the League Cup etc. Maybe if we could have kept Coutinho AND bought VVD and Alisson, and bought 200m worth of average full backs and 150m worth of shit centre backs (save Laporte) we'd have won the League Cup/FA Cup too...I mean all you had to do was beat Chelsea last week
Youse needed a super squad to beat Villa, and Chelsea this last week? Gotcha.Or Villa in the League Cup etc. Maybe if we could have kept Coutinho AND bought VVD and Alisson, and bought 200m worth of average full backs and 150m worth of shit centre backs (save Laporte) we'd have won the League Cup/FA Cup too...
One title and they are delusional.Youse needed a super squad to beat Villa, and Chelsea this last week? Gotcha.
Gundogan is a 6 now, he just can't play higher up the pitch anymore. But when you start him deeper you can't pair him with D Silva who has zero energy now. City's midfield is a complete mess this season, simply praying for KDB to do some spectacular.Our midfield is shocking and nothing is gonna change till Pep realizes he's dropped a fecking bollick playing Gundogan and Rodri consistently in the same team. It makes us the most lethargic midfield in the league. Two players who jog around and pass a ball sideways, offering very little to defence and feck all more to attack. Someone needs to pull Pep aside and tell him cop the feck on.
Yup, I find it hilarious Sky Sports etc... blame the defenders and attackers whilst constantly giving our midfield selection a pass. Our defence is slightly weaker at best and our attack pretty much the same. The key difference is simply...Gundogan is a 6 now, he just can't play higher up the pitch anymore. But when you start him deeper you can't pair him with D Silva who has zero energy now. City's midfield is a complete mess this season, simply praying for KDB to do some spectacular.
Well those cups are played by sides using their squads now so yes? Its no wonder the club who has been punished for flouting the rules has doninated the cups when squad depth comes into play.Youse needed a super squad to beat Villa, and Chelsea this last week? Gotcha.
Have you been in a coma for the four league titles City have won in the past decade? I appreciate last season and that time Gerrard slipped might have been repressed, but the other two times you surely remember?Well done Man City - spent billion(s) to dominate League Cups. You should be proud of that right there.
If your opponent needs 2-3 touches to go through your midfield, if your defenders end up in 1v1 five times every game... You'll concede sooner or later. Honestly Pep doesn't really challenge himself anymore, I think. No personalities or leaders left in the dressing room, didn't try to replace Arteta with someone who'd offer new ideas (I think SAF had NINE different assistants in 27 years), didn't replace that terrible GK coach who worked under two managers with five different goalkeepers during seven years and no one of them improved. Pep's ridiculously stubborn and there's no reason to think he'll change.Yup, I find it hilarious Sky Sports etc... blame the defenders and attackers whilst constantly giving our midfield selection a pass. Our defence is slightly weaker at best and our attack pretty much the same. The key difference is simply...
Our first choice midfield of the last 2 seasons - Fernandinho, D Silva, KDB. Our first choice midfield this season - Rodri, Gundogan and KDB. The latter is completely relying on KDB to do all the attacking (and defending). That's a massive drop in quality.
16/17 and 19/20 are worse seasons than 11/12 + 12/13 + 13/14 IMO. At least league performances and consistency.He can be 30 points of first and he'd still be the best coach City have ever had imo. If you can't see that then you must be blind.... have poor eyesight.
I don't think Pep's using his players properly this season. Cancelo, Mendy, Angelino are wing-backs so why play them in back four and force to move to midfield etc? If anything he should have switched to 3-4-3. Sane's out for 7 months, Sterling's better through the middle anyway, defence wouldn't be constantly exposed by lack of legs in midfield... He's too stubborn to change and too loyal to senior players.For a club like City to have a defence like they have is absolutely shocking.
Otamendi, Stones and Zinchenko have absolutely no business being at a club with their ambition... and Mendy and Cancelo are hardly setting the world on fire since there arrival.
They basically have two actual very good defenders in Laporte and Walker, its mad.
19 right, young un?One title and they are delusional.
It happens to the best managers after a period of success. Pep should be able to quickly turn things around and not for too much net spend either. The question is will he have the appetite if they really are banned from CL for two seasons?For a club like City to have a defence like they have is absolutely shocking.
Otamendi, Stones and Zinchenko have absolutely no business being at a club with their ambition... and Mendy and Cancelo are hardly setting the world on fire since there arrival.
They basically have two actual very good defenders in Laporte and Walker, its mad.