Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by devilish, Aug 9, 2019.
He wouldnt come here, didnt he say he used to be a City fan?
To be fair it is hard to have a positive outlook towards Utd these days, it´s been fairly embarrassing and brutal at the same time.
Possibly because anyone with an analytical mind could see that Sir Alex was much more than just a manager at United, he was our de facto DOF and it worked because he was good enough to have the security that's needed to make long term plans. The last manger we had who came close to that was Jose but even he did not seem to have the energy or interest to deal with aspects of the job that that didn't involve training and running the first team on match days - the structure of the club remains one of his major complaints with the club especially the fact that he didn't have someone to help him deal with players' off the pitch.
Every transfer window we fail to secure most of our transfer targets or we look unprepared - from the three Amigos attempting to pay Herrera's clause in 2013 to the deadline rush to sign Mandzukic. I think that is rooted in us not having a dedicated person with enough know-how and authority to lay the groundwork for transfer moves during the season. Can't expect Ole to focus on that when he could be involved in the run in which could seal his fate whilst Woodward and Judge lack the skill to assess and make key decisions to make concrete offers for players. Then when the players are signed and the manager who signed them gets the sack the club is back to square one as the new manager might want players that suit his type of play and you end up either forcing the existing ones on him or conducting a fire sale.
Clearly, the failures in recruitment are at the heart of our sustained decline. Woodward has been central to those failures; both for players and managers and unless we remove him completely or bring someone that gives us leadership or specialized competencies (an eye for talent and a vast network of agents, coaches etc) we will continue to have this problem. Even if you decide to have a committee style you still need a central figure to coordinate, lead the process and have the deciding voice for clarity and accountability purposes.
Make of this what you will:
I’d take him just to get that scruffy bastard Woodward out of the way.
That's as good a reason as any!
White fecking text
Loads of people laid bets post the Mail and Mirror stories? Doesn’t seem like anything concrete or any serious sources are reporting this is imminent either here or from the Netherlands.
The club would instantly be heading in a better direction even if Mr Blobby got the job. Anything just to get that utter buffoon Woodward out the way.
Here we go again. See you all back here in six months when nobody has been appointed for a role that doesn't exist and never will under the control of Woodward.
It is so easy to be pessimistic about this one actually happening. I just can't see, from Edwin's pov, why he'd want to work at United at this point of time?
Or is this the best time to work here, whilst his own stock is high and United's is quite low?!
Did they not roll out this exact same line a year ago, after that disastrous transfer window?
The crazy thing is that some fans will believe this.
My thoughts exactly.
Not going to happen, we've been hearing this for over a year now....if we wanted a DOF we would had one by now. It's clear the board don't want one so it's just bollocks.
I thought he'd said he was happy in role (CEO) and didn't want to change?
I'd happily take him mind.
United absolutely failed by not hiring a DoF in 07 or 2012. Look at the complete and utter lack of midfield recruitment by United in Ferguson’s last few years, which has still continued. With a good DoF in place Hazard likely would have been at United.
United was successful because Ferguson was a rare manager who could handle both managerial duties as well as some aspects of a DoF role. He was also a brilliant tactician who excelled at maximizing talent and concealing deficiencies.
The problem is that the game continually becomes more and more complex and there isn’t anyone who can manage a team and be the DoF. There are just too many responsibilities and not enough to do both.
The improvements in technology have made watching film and clips much easier but also require more time. Training techniques are changing, dietary plans are much improved.
There’s a much smaller gap in the quality of players from top to bottom, so every minuscule advantage needs to be analyzed.
Analytics play a massive role and its value will continue to increase.
Of course, you can hire all the DoFs you want but if the ownership sucks it isn’t going to matter.
Even if the ownership and management are poor, it is completely insane not to have a DoF.
Having a DoF guarantees nothing, but not having one guarantees a shit show because teams have to have an authoritative figure who has final say, and that figure needs to know what decisions to make, how to delegate, and how to hire the right people.
The DoF develops the vision and the culture of the club. They develop the plans and the methods of execution.
There is good reason every single major sports in North America franchise operates this way and for good reason.
Not everyone is successful just like not everyone can hire the best manager. There is a lot of cronyism, which typically leads to a lot of retread hires that almost always fail.
However, those organizations with vision and stones are rewarded.
Again most successful football franchises have gone away from committees and have adopted the DoF model. It doesn’t mean they abandon collaborative group thought, it simply means the DoF is the grand architect and they lay the foundation so to speak. They then should be hiring the best people to do the job.
At the end of the day someone has to be in charge and make the final decisions.
You are correct that the bottom line is that things need to be fixed from top to bottom.
The problem here is why has it taken so long to get a DoF in place when almost all billion dollar+ franchises can hire a general manager (DoF equivalent) in a matter of days/weeks.
Certainly, it’s not all up to people not wanting to take the job, and maybe there isn’t a job to be had and Woodward was just spouting that off as a distraction technique.
However, in my conversions with a few GMs in NA sports there are situations they will not touch certain positions with a ten foot pole because the culture of ownership is terrible.
Given what most people have seen from United’s management/ownership, I would believe it’s likely true.
Transfer Podcast makes me believe this could happen. They mentioned an interview Edwin did with Johnathan Northcroft in April and how Edwin had massive respect for Ed etc etc. Basically saying he'd love to work at the club, even with Ed as the main man.
Makes sense I suppose. Edwin would learn from Ed about the business sides of things, whilst implementing his knowledge of the football side.
What, what? So you would have wanted Sir Alex out in 2007 or 2012, because that would have been the consequence. You basically want to delete the 8-9 most successful years in the clubs history?
With the benefit of hindsight it would have made sense to get a DoF in 2011 or 2012, with Fergie set to leave in 2013. We heard a lot of talk about preparations for the post-Fergie era. You'd assume a properly run club would have understood the benefits of having a DoF to guide the transition.
How was that "set"? You understand that no one (not even himself) knew that before the spring of 2013? No one expected that; it was widely presumed that he had at least one or two years left.
And you are rewriting history. There was no talk of anything else but us continuing on the "manager-rules-all" road, especially since Sir Alex himself was involved in the appointment of Moyes. The first time the DoF-thing came up was under LvG, which he also has confirmed himself that he suggested just that quite heavily.
True, we didn’t know exactly when he would leave, but we did know he couldn’t go on forever. I think more proactive oversight of the situation might have prompted a smoother transition.
Any minute now surely. for the last three years or so
I agree, and believe this to have been a mistake and a product of mismanagement.
Chriiiiiiiiist on a bike..
Fergie wanted full autonomy, a DOF wanting to sign a midfielder, or any other player for that matter, wouldn't have done much good, most likely quite the opposite. As i've already said, look at Brendan Rodgers and the transfer committee and DOF position at Liverpool, it was a disaster, they had a system in place but a manager that didn't want to work with it and a not so good DOF. Look at how it's functioning under Klopp. We went from Ferguson, who wanted full autonomy at the club, to a similar type in Moyes (in terms of autonomy, Moyes doesn't want to sign a player unless he's had the chance to monitor him) to Van Gaal and then over to Mourinho who is a nutjob when it comes to wanting full control. It's hardly a huge surprise that a DOF hasn't been the highest priority and that things take time.
What would a DOF have changed in terms of Eden Hazard ? We already wanted to sign him, talks were held. Claims are we weren't interested in paying the agent fees, which at the time were very high, but that might as well be an excuse over the player preferring a move to Chelsea.
I have no idea why you're mentioning videos, training techniques and diets, we've had designated people for that for ages. Some are a part of the team that the new manager brings in, some stay on.
I'd expect any halfwit to understand that there are valid reasons as to why we haven't gone out and just hired a DOF. It's bizarre to see the amount of people dealing with absolutes, while failing to understand even the most basic concepts, calling it a failure that the club hasn't almost instantly hired an almighty authority that, to quote you, is "the grand architect and lay the foundation", is absurd.
In terms of our current ownership, we've done our best to acquire the players that the various managers wanted. Since Ferguson retired we've spent around £840mill on transfer fees, including a very expensive swap deal and a free transfer. There's no credible information that any of those signings have been forced upon any of the managers, or any sales for that matter. The freedom given to the managers to identify the players to go after has been absolute. No personnel has been forced on any of them either. The working conditions hardly seems terrible.
There's a need to make organizational changes, but apart from personal opinions there's little to suggest that the club is actually against it. If anything, the indications are that we're spending time on getting in right instead of rushing into it and most likely getting it badly wrong.
It's somewhat funny to see someone ranting about analytical minds and then somehow not grasping Jose Mourinho's tenure at United, nor understanding the point ref Ferguson. The point is simple but true, if you have the right setup you can succeed without having a DOF overseeing things.
Mourinho didn't want someone to help him deal with players, he just didn't want someone to prevent him from doing whatever the feck he wanted to whoever the feck he wanted.
You're confusing personal opinions with facts, and you're also confusing rumors with facts. You forgot to mention how many years in a row we failed to sign a certain Benfica player..Excluding Moyes, for logical reasons, we went a long way in terms of going after the players that the various managers wanted, succeeded in most cases.
We've spent around £840mill in transfer fees since he took over the job, not to mention the expensive swap deal for Sanchez and Zlatan's "free" transfer. The failure is certainly not in terms of our ability to acquire the players we're interested in. No idea what you expect in terms of "vast network of agents", or coaches for that matter, not sure you do either.
Good post. I agree with the consensus that we need a more permanent structure in place at the club to ensure continuity if we are to have 3 - 5 managers per decade. But it is mad to think that it is a sure fix and mad also the hype any foreign name gets... like people would have berbatov over Nicky butt... just a random old player. Say we shouldn't hire club legends we should hire van der saar... who was just an Ajax club legend before he took a job that isn't even a director of football job..
Surprised that Ed didn't appoint himself to the role
Basically that's what the genius that is Ed has done, can't jump over his ego and self promotion. Nothing much will change while he is controlling the direction of the club for the blood suckers that are the Glazers.
Having a DoF then would have been paramount to keep things moving forward once Fergie retired. Having a DoF wouldn’t have precluded Fergie from being involved it would have taken items off his plate.
So a DoF would be necessary for the long term health beyond Fergie’s reign.
So Edwin will be back at the club soon? Can't wait.
I almost quite literally feel violated by this bit of shameless spinning the news by the club. Does Ed have comprosing pics of the Glazers or board or something?
He'll be daft to join us if Woodward is still around. Replace Edward with Edwin, so the ward turns to win.
Ajax was always a selling club. VDS benefited from that as a player, same as Overmars, De Boer etc. Prior to that generation there was the Van Basten and Rijkaard generation as well. So I see this being a challenge for them as breathing is.
So Fellaini wasn’t wanted by Moyes?
[/QUOTE]We've spent around £840mill in transfer fees since he took over the job, not to mention the expensive swap deal for Sanchez and Zlatan's "free" transfer. The failure is certainly not in terms of our ability to acquire the players we're interested in. No idea what you expect in terms of "vast network of agents", or coaches for that matter, not sure you do either.[/QUOTE]
Who’s “we”? Ed? The manager? A select coterie of agents?
You’re absolutely right to point out the vast sums that have been spent, but I don’t see how it follows from that that the manager is solely the one to determine transfer targets.
Have we signed him yet?
This just helps to prove my point, how else do you dress up spending 800m pounds and having an average position of sixth if not as a massive failure in recruitment? As for confusing personal opinion with facts, well every former manager has misgivings about the club's dealings in the market. From LVG's "I thought United could get anyone they wanted" to Mourinho's very public meltdown when the club failed to back him adequately. Yes we have signed expensive players but have they been what the team needs, have they contributed to the club's success or could we have done better? Our position wrt the money spent says otherwise, right now Ole wanted a major clean out (which can't be done in one summer) and already said that we needed to replace Lukaku whilst we all agree that we needed to replace Herrera; all of which wasn't done. How is that not a failure in recruitment?
Edwin would be a brilliant appointment but I can't see it happening. He seems happy at Ajax.
I think if he was offered the job with adequate autonomy and authority to craft and execute a proper vision he would consider it because we operate at a different financial level to Ajax which gives him an opportunity to build something special and further cement his legendary status at United. I think the biggest stumbling block to any appointment we would want to make is the level of autonomy Ed would be willing to give the new man, obviously within budgetary parameters set by the board. I don't see anyone worth their salt leaving their comfort zone to come into watered down version of the job where you take the blame but without any real room/power to perform the job.
Ofcourse he was, and i haven't claimed otherwise. I'm just excluding the Moyes transfer window because Moyes had unrealistic ideas about who we could get, like pursuing Bale until the end even though we were made well aware he was going to Madrid.
We've spent around £840mill in transfer fees since he took over the job, not to mention the expensive swap deal for Sanchez and Zlatan's "free" transfer. The failure is certainly not in terms of our ability to acquire the players we're interested in. No idea what you expect in terms of "vast network of agents", or coaches for that matter, not sure you do either.[/QUOTE]
Who’s “we”? Ed? The manager? A select coterie of agents?
You’re absolutely right to point out the vast sums that have been spent, but I don’t see how it follows from that that the manager is solely the one to determine transfer targets.[/QUOTE]
There's not a single bit of credible information that says otherwise, none of the former managers, not even Mourinho, has complained about it.
Separate names with a comma.