Ah we're here again. Did we travel back in time?
Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic
- Thread starter keithsingleton
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Haha good old Kostov, normalizing domestic violence. Aren't you witty!
Expressing my own opinion? Talk about gross.
Nobody said he will have zero repercussions, nor should he. I don't have anyone who was ever charged of attempted rape, but assault yes, when they were 16-20, far far worse have never ever been touched by the law imo.
No I think your opinion is gross.
Insulting another member
You are really pathetic. Typical ganging up and jumping on the bandwagon. Wonder how you handle everyday issues, do you cry under your pillow?
He was arrested and later charged with attempted rape after an investigation launched in January 2022.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said there was “no longer a realistic prospect of conviction” after key witnesses withdrew their cooperation from the investigation.
edit: nevermind I think you were talking about someone else
No i face them head on and call them out, just like i am doing now. You don't like being shown up for your disgusting posting on this topic.
They were talking about Antony I think.
I mean, there are some of us who believe that
1. The "abuse from away fans" is overrated. Other players have played post bad deeds and I can't recall one single sustained campaign of targeted jeering (apart from Beckham/Ronaldo). Yes, images/audio and all, but I think it's worth betting on the fickleness of the general public here. A few games of boos, then most fans move on
2. No one has come to harm as a result of him playing football at Getafe in Spain as far as I'm aware (if anyone knows otherwise please let me know). United is a bigger club and everything is inflated but the horrible acts done (threatening to rape is heinous enough) by Mason are in the past, and unless him playing at Old Trafford would materially impact other players and members of the public in a negative way going forward, I see no reason why we shouldn't utilize an asset of ours judiciously*
*(If someone comes and pays 100M for him, off he goes, he's fulfilled his purpose)
So it's not placing heads in the sand. It's recognizing that if a decision was made to bring him back, that the sky wouldn't fall, and the public wouldn't be at increased risk of sexual assault, and any abuse would fade away as it has for 100% of players who have undergone such in the past, leaving us with a (possibly) valuable player from a football and financial perspective. It would just take a club with backbone (amoral of course) to ignore all the outside noise and focus on the football.
Do people think PSG are an option? We could get a chunk out of them. He could also move to one of the big Italian clubs, but they wouldn't go as high.
I don't disagree with any of that except the £100m bit. I honestly think he's in that range when talking purely about his footballing talent when you look at the market today. Even outside the PL, if none of this had happened and someone wanted him, it'd take that amount for us to have even considered selling. Obviously that isn't the case anymore.
This website details the allegations against Antony which weren't so well documented in the English press - https://www.espn.com.br/futebol/man...meaca-bo-relata-quatro-episodios-de-violencia
"She presented photos of injuries that would have been caused by the athlete's attacks and also said she had other elements to present as evidence in the investigation."
So the only difference between the two cases here is one alleged victim reported crimes with pictures and evidence to the police. The other posted their allegations online with pictures and evidence.
In addition to the above we also know there were two co accusers who made similar allegations reported here - https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/08/two-...e-against-manchester-uniteds-antony-19466685/
I'm also pretty sure all three accusers haven't withdrawn their statements or accusations either.
I suppose this is a good example of the phenomenon of "trial by social media" which Rood was discussing a few pages back.
Yeah, I appreciate you believe all of that and fundamentally you don't give a toss but you underestimate people. And in this case, the difference to previously is it's our fans that are split.
Nobody has come to harm? What is this new wonderful strawman you speak of?
Yes, the only issue here is a club with a backbone. Sack the PR people and get in Andrew Tate for motivational talks.
That's one of your worst posts if you don't mind me saying. I rarely agree with you but there is usually some logic.
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So the fact one was arrested and charged and the other wasn't carries less weight in your world than what Rood on the internet says?
That's not weird at all.
Half of your posts on Redcafe are in this thread, and half of them mention Rood.
Not weird at all.
They are very different, of course also in how United have dealt with them. One informing the other I’m sure.
Though if you asked most people who don’t want Greenwood back I'm quite certain you’d find they’d want Antony gone too ASAP.
Whether that’s enough or we should all be having this painful conversation in the Antony thread (we did) still, is up for debate I guess.
Though if you asked most people who don’t want Greenwood back I'm quite certain you’d find they’d want Antony gone too ASAP.
Whether that’s enough or we should all be having this painful conversation in the Antony thread (we did) still, is up for debate I guess.
Every case is different. And should be argued on merit. The Antony and Ronaldo whataboutery is visibly and pathetically clutching at straws.
@Raoul , did you also get the impression that he was fatigued last night? Watching live, he seemed to lack the energy to get forwards at times, never mind track back. Still, he was the best player on the pitch alongside Isco.
Good question and probably a selection dilemma I'm sure ETH would welcome. A vast majority of Greenwood's production seems to come from the right, because that's where he's historically been assigned. He has shown he can do the same from the left as well when he finds himself there. Fortunately, Garnacho is adaptable to both sides, and the only reason he's on the right is because of lack of production from Antony, Pellistri and anyone else ETH has tried there, as well as the need to free up the left to give Rashford a meaningful starting XI role. If Greenwood were in the mix, i think he would go on the right and Garnacho back on the left.
Heh. Interesting concept. An amoral backbone.
I'm not dismissing it - as a concept. But at first glance it seems very close to - you know - "we only care about the money".
(It could, of course, mean that you actually have principles - but amoral ones - and you stick with them regardless, even if this means you'll lose money. But, yeah - let's be realistic and all that.)
I didn't think he was fatigued. The run he made into the box at the very end showed that his fitness levels were on point from beginning to end. Getafe's issue is they insist on going 4-4-2 and building their attacks from the left, which seems to limit his touches.
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True. When he left Carvalho in the dust at the end there it was like the 98th minute, and he'd only been on a few minutes, too.
Am I the only who felt uncomfortable when I read this? It's like the set up for a punchline down the road.
This is a thread about Greenwood, whom we have recordings of saying what he said. Talking about Best, Giggs, Ronaldo, Anthony, other teenagers, male or female, none of that reduces the audio we heard where Greenwood was threatening to rape someone.
A lot of the attempts at obfuscation and undermining people's opinions are vile alright.
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Probably true.
I personally don't want Greenwood back and I would Antony gone ASAP too.
But the reasons are different, you see.
I don't think the pair of them belong in one and the same category.
And there's also a difference between what I personally want - for whatever reason - and what I think United absolutely should or should not do as a football club.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Antony himself has claimed to be a victim of "trial by social media".
Greenwood has not, as far as I know.
Which would make sense, as the former has never been charged with a crime - whereas the latter very much has.
This is probably because spare a brief statement prior to the loan, Greenwood has been on radio silence about the matter for two years (probably after receiving legal advice to STFU), whereas Antony did a dramatic, Piers Morgan style interview. It should be noted that United in their statement about him, are keeping Antony's case under constant review, which means further action could still be taken.
I agree before we would have needed that sort of fee to even consider selling, but that is more to do with the fact he's English, homegrown and had the potential to be another academy poster boy. Basically none of that really matters any more and FFP actually would encourage us to sell, so we'd probably take far less.
Endrick for example isn't going for that, Kvaratskhelia will move for less, as will someone like Wirtz. I think it's fanciful to suggest Greenwood is still viewed talent wise the same as where he was prior. Players don't get valued on pure footballing talent alone though, otherwise players like Ben Arfa, Taraabt would have been smashing transfer records.
Believe me, I wish we were sitting on an obvious goldmine of 100m+.
Which is the right thing to do. Doesn't dismiss the woman's allegations, yet not acting on them by suspending a player who hasn't been charged. No amount of social media activity could convince them to send Antony away on an indefinite loan. The cries of Trial by Social media ignore these differences in the cases.
Yes, this too.
As has been pointed out many times in this thread, if Mason and his girlfriend had done a grand interview, explaining what happened, addressing the "mistakes" he has made (by his own admission) - and so forth - of course that would have made a big difference with regard to how he's currently perceived by United fans.
But what we have is radio silence, as you say.
Which brings us back to: why? What are they hiding?
A: The fact that he was stitched up?
B: Or the fact that he actually did threaten her and give her a beating or two?
I think B. Most people who don't want him back think B.
Obviously - why would we think otherwise? Because they had a child together? *
* Anyone who knows anything about abusive relationships knows that this is a nonsensical argument, yet it's being brought up again and again: "She forgave him, they even had a kid, why - oh why - can't we forgive the poor lad?"
ETA And to be clear, if he came out and stated that he did threaten her and beat her up, I wouldn't condemn him forever. I'd be open to "forgiving" him (an absurd enough concept, I'm a random dude on the Internet) if he explained himself. I'm not against second chances, very far from it. But you can't expect me to give a second chance to someone who hasn't done anything to explain himself.
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Not sure about "trial by social media" bit, but its obvious people are going to have a far more visceral emotional reaction to photos and audio, as opposed to a verbal accusation (Antony, Ronaldo et al) and/or legal action that is done to pay off an accuser. All three players could well be comparably guilty, but part of the public will only react to what they've actually seen or heard.
If the club bring him back, he would still need to do some form of interview to assuage lingering concerns. This is where Arnold and his team made a massive mistake - they didn't have an effective strategy and allowed a leak to force them to change course.
In a hypothetical return scenario, they would need to preemptively mitigate that this time by transparently arranging a controlled MUTV interview with the couple to get some answers into the public domain, alongside some form of tacit admission of wrongdoing by Greenwood; him publicly pleading with the fans for a second chance, and some form of commitment to community service related to DV awareness. I think if all three were to happen simultaneously, there would be a chance.
This is pretty much how its playing out in Spain this year. Very sparse jeering and anything more than that seems to be getting clamped down on by the league. There would probably be a bit more in England given that its United and also where the epicenter of the story unfolded, but its highly unlikely it would be sustained.
Although true, the fact that United have new ownership and executive leadership may play into whether they want to take on the risk of bringing him back as their first move.
Not speaking about the sexual/physical abuse of course. I mean, the act of Greenwood playing football in general since then, has not been detrimental. Has it?
Everytime I know about Andrew Tate has been against my will and he needs to be shot out of a cannon into the sun
Well, it is close
But I'm actually leaving room for the following: if it could be demonstrated that Greenwood returning to United strictly for football purposes would be of a material/tangible detriment to his (now) spouse, child, the club, sport, members of the public, and so on... that would outweigh any benefits to Manchester United from a football perspective, then I would most likely switch my stance to condemning him to just being a plumber in Andalusia.
I get that's not everyone's threshold. That what he did what he did is disqualifying enough to prevent him from playing for Manchester United. And that is completely understandable. But the only issue for me is that doing so shorts us from a football and financial perspective relative to our rivals, which in my viewpoint could only be justified if beyond the principle, there was an individual or group of individuals that were tangibly impacted for the worse by him kicking a ball on the OT pitch.
Well, that would be hard to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt.
Still, that's pretty feckin' close to pure sophistry - I mean, insisting on tangible proof that a specific individual or group were negatively impacted by the decision?
Signal effect? That - feck knows - is not a tangible thing. But it can certainly be brought in here - and it can certainly be called relevant. United aren't a random employer. What they do is observed by hundreds of millions of people.
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Shit, i'd go with preponderance of the evidence at this point
It doesn't have to be proof... We aren't investigators on here. Let me be clear then: I don't see any causal link between Greenwood's possible return to United, and any negative impact, beyond a section of supporters being upset. I'd love to see any arguments/evidence to the contrary.
Yes what we do are observed by tons of people. It doesn't result in anything. They'll observe and move on. Observation of hundreds of millions isn't enough reason to shoot ourselves in the foot
So I guess you must have been really confused when they sent him on loan to Getafe? You think that happened because of a section of supporters being upset, and that would have no conceivable knock on effect?
Funny how we never get to hear an alternative explanation for this. Not even the role play crowd have tried, which obviously says quite a lot.
Yep. Whenever it’s raised it gets conveniently ignored, someone posts some highlights and then a new person comes in and says “from a football perspective he should come back” and the whole circus starts again.
If he is not back at our club next season he will be at a much better club than Getafe.
My guess is a top 3 side in either Spain or Italy.
I actually don't see that happening.
He's not putting up great numbers or statistics, has lost a spark about him; pace, agility. Is no longer a young player and should be finding his stride - 22 in the modern day is when you're expected to bed yourself into a team, if you're a genuine top talent.
I imagine Getafe will be his level. In Spain, Italy or Germany, a mid-table team will be where he's suited.