Rice is a good shout.
McTominay and Fred, do we need both?
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Is Rice good enough to walk into the team and be that one holding midfielder to cover the centre backs? Rodri at City is ready made, Busquets in his day at Barca, that is what we need in a midfield 3.
I don’t know if Rice is good enough to be honest. From people who see the games, I’ve heard he is a clear class above his team mates and has been outstanding. Not sure if he can step up to our level but he is at least a genuine no. 6. Maybe he lacks proper pace but I think he should be on the shortlist if we’re going to buy a DM. If we can get someone better, great.
Not really, I just think they are at the very end of our problems, they are not the reason we are not winning games and they make us play better as a team than Pogba and Matic. Simple as that.
The difference between Matic/Pogba passing ability is insignificant compared to what Fred and McTominay bring to this team and I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. I'd be happy to find an upgrade on either of them, no problem with that, but the solution you suggest (buying #6) is not as easy answer as you think.
Never said it was easy and in fact I said several times it won’t be easy. I don’t even have a player in mind. Probably I’m being idealistic but it’s the way I want us to go.
I see the same. Just saw some positive signs in the game McT had to be replaced. We had more presence and manpower higher up and more central on the pitch. Cavani and Rashford is also more dynamic on top: change positions and like to variate their runs. Two on top also makes more room for Shaw and AWB. When we play three players up front we become more static in certain parts of our play.
Our counterattack probably benefit from playing three on top, but our build up and ability to have more consistent press or efficient possession play suffers, I think
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We need to find a new guy to partner either McFred in case of rotation or when one has to be sidelined, for instance, against Arsenal we were on path to win the game but McT suddenly couldn’t continue due to what? Stomach cramp! Insane!I see the same. Just saw some positive signs in the game McT had to be replaced. We had more presence and manpower higher up and more central on the pitch. Cavani and Rashford is also more dynamic on top: change positions and like to variate their runs. Two on top also makes more room for Shaw and AWB. When we play three players up front we become more static in certain parts of our play.
Our counterattack probably benefit from playing three on top, but our build up and ability to have more consistent press or efficient possession play suffers, I think
Also until a few weeks ago, Rodri was looking like "Guardiola will spend again in the summer". Rice will find it hard to get in the team here just like VDB.
I will forever insist. NONE of our DMs is a . We don't need a new one. We instead need a center defence that can operate behind a singlular defensive midfielder. Our current first choice pair is the reason we must weaken our offensive capability in midfield and operate with two combative type midfielders in tougher games.
As a pair our center defenders pose to many problems for ANY singular DM to protect due to their incompatibility. I don't care of you had prime Busquets not Keane or Vieira at their peak. They'd still need help with that pairing behind them.
As a pair our center defenders pose to many problems for ANY singular DM to protect due to their incompatibility. I don't care of you had prime Busquets not Keane or Vieira at their peak. They'd still need help with that pairing behind them.
I saw Liverpool vs Brighton and loved their DM (Bossuma?) He has presence, tackling and above all remained calm throughout the match. He kept passing the ball forward and even when pressed, was able to keep the ball. I think he should also be considered as a cheaper option. Westham will ask silly money for Rice so we may be able to obtain him for half the amount Rice will cost.
These are the kind of signings we should be making as he will be attainable and cheaper and may allow us to further spend on Sancho/Grealish or CB options.
These are the kind of signings we should be making as he will be attainable and cheaper and may allow us to further spend on Sancho/Grealish or CB options.
For the manner in what we play yes we need two of them as neither Bruno or Pogba are good enough at keeping retention of the ball and none of the forwards are really particularly great at this either or creating space/ movement within the opposition defence with good passing.
McT and Fred do a lot of work apart from protecting the Centre backs. ie covering the flanks due to a lack of tracking back from our forwards. I don’t see Ole moving to a 433 with Bruno or Pogba and any DM anytime soon as they simply aren’t the type of players who are able to do it.
Maybe we could get more quality like a Saul or someone in there to help but don’t see us changing.
McT and Fred do a lot of work apart from protecting the Centre backs. ie covering the flanks due to a lack of tracking back from our forwards. I don’t see Ole moving to a 433 with Bruno or Pogba and any DM anytime soon as they simply aren’t the type of players who are able to do it.
Maybe we could get more quality like a Saul or someone in there to help but don’t see us changing.
I think he won’t suite us. He lacks a little bit natural stuffs, for instance, not quick enough.
If we are going to stick with McTominay as a first-team midfielder, he has to get more involved in possession in games where not much space is available. His average passes completed per game is at 34.3 in the PL, which is very low for a midfielder in his position, particularly for a club like Manchester United.
In comparison, Fred is on 57.9 per game and Pogba is on 53.6 per game in the PL. Of players who have played 8 games or more, Fred is 12th and Pogba is 16th in terms of midfielders and they are surrounded by those in the top teams (Man City, Tottenham, Liverpool, Chelsea etc.). This is the expected contribution of the top team's midfielders.
On the other hand, McTominay is 49th, which is what you would expect of midfielders at Sheffield United and Burnley, judging by the players a couple of places above him.
But, he is supposed to be a box-to-box midfielder some people argue, so are his dribbling stats higher from charging up the pitch? No, in fact, he is only 38th in terms of attempted dribbles with 0.9 per game. He does tend to have a high success rate though with 0.7 successful per game. Fred attempts 1.1 per game (31st) with 1 successful per game. Both have a very high success percentage in terms of dribbling, and very rarely fail. Even without stats, you can tell both of them are quite good at doing this by just watching.
Whilst the attempted dribbles from them isn't low for deeper-lying midfielders (e.g. Rodri has 1 attempted with 0.8 success), it could do with a bit of an improvement for both. But it is more of an issue with McTominay because he is not making up for the lack of passing with another area of the game. If he was providing an outlet in the way of dribbling as opposed to passing, it wouldn't be such an issue. But he doesn't do that.
People have said his long ball passing is good, so can he provide a reliable outlet with that way. He has 43.75% long ball accuracy and attempts 3.2 per game. The accuracy is quite low in the PL with Rodri having 70% with 6.2 attempted per game, Pogba 68% with 6 attempted per game, Neves with 68% and 8.4 attempts, and Thiago 76% with 8 attempted, and Fred having 63% with 5.2 attempted. The likelihood is that accuracy % decreases with higher attempts, so it is likely that McTominay's will reduce with more long passes.
I mean even midfielders at lower teams are posting higher percentages, so I don't think it is pretty reading for a first-team midfielder at Manchester United. He seems to be posting midfielder stats of far lower teams at Manchester United.
In comparison, Fred is on 57.9 per game and Pogba is on 53.6 per game in the PL. Of players who have played 8 games or more, Fred is 12th and Pogba is 16th in terms of midfielders and they are surrounded by those in the top teams (Man City, Tottenham, Liverpool, Chelsea etc.). This is the expected contribution of the top team's midfielders.
On the other hand, McTominay is 49th, which is what you would expect of midfielders at Sheffield United and Burnley, judging by the players a couple of places above him.
But, he is supposed to be a box-to-box midfielder some people argue, so are his dribbling stats higher from charging up the pitch? No, in fact, he is only 38th in terms of attempted dribbles with 0.9 per game. He does tend to have a high success rate though with 0.7 successful per game. Fred attempts 1.1 per game (31st) with 1 successful per game. Both have a very high success percentage in terms of dribbling, and very rarely fail. Even without stats, you can tell both of them are quite good at doing this by just watching.
Whilst the attempted dribbles from them isn't low for deeper-lying midfielders (e.g. Rodri has 1 attempted with 0.8 success), it could do with a bit of an improvement for both. But it is more of an issue with McTominay because he is not making up for the lack of passing with another area of the game. If he was providing an outlet in the way of dribbling as opposed to passing, it wouldn't be such an issue. But he doesn't do that.
People have said his long ball passing is good, so can he provide a reliable outlet with that way. He has 43.75% long ball accuracy and attempts 3.2 per game. The accuracy is quite low in the PL with Rodri having 70% with 6.2 attempted per game, Pogba 68% with 6 attempted per game, Neves with 68% and 8.4 attempts, and Thiago 76% with 8 attempted, and Fred having 63% with 5.2 attempted. The likelihood is that accuracy % decreases with higher attempts, so it is likely that McTominay's will reduce with more long passes.
I mean even midfielders at lower teams are posting higher percentages, so I don't think it is pretty reading for a first-team midfielder at Manchester United. He seems to be posting midfielder stats of far lower teams at Manchester United.
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Neither Keane nor Vieira was a DM - our CBs could function with a single DM if we changed our tactical style to a more offensive possession based one but that's not what Ole wants. We give away possession way too much to play with the inverted triangle, it'd probably be more entertaining and I think we'd score more and concede more against the weaker teams but it would be carnage against the better teams.
I really don’t know why people keep using the term DM to make any point. I am pretty sure most of people have different definitions of it. That’s why there are so many arguments about those players. Traditional DM is not common anymore now.
It’s strange if people really want us have a traditional DM who only stays deep to screen the defense and man marking the attacking opponent player and does nothing else. I think they don’t really mean that.
I think in this case that's exactly what they poster did mean though. Traditional DM for me is basically a sole DM which is very common - look at the last PL winners; Liverpool (Fabinho), City (Fernandinho), Chelsea (Kante*), Leicester (Kante).
The role that's died a bit is the traditional box to box - maybe that Soucek at WHU is showing how important that is but i feel like a lot of midfielders now have more defined roles (probably because you don't really see 442 anymore).
*I know Conte used Kante/Matic but both are DMs. That's why when Matic first came here it was so evident how much better we were with him sitting deep on his own, he's just too old now and so immobile but the platform a good DM gives a team to attack from for me is what we are lacking by playing the double pivot.
Certainly seems like any midfielder who is not "attacking" is now called DM.
Neither McTominay and especially Fred are not defensive midfielders. They are both conservative Box-To-Box midfielders. Matic is the only player who could play solely DM, as he can sit in front of the defense. But I don't remember when was the last time he played that role for us, certainly doesn't seem to be what Ole wants from him.
Well, all of the players you mentioned are normally not playing as a traditional/pure DM, because their teams don’t want that setup. It’s a waste. You can only say in certain games, they might play higher portion of that role especially when playing the top side. For example when city against us this season in league, they use both Fernandinho and Rodri for that role. But most time they are not. Their role is normally a mixture of defensive, holding, deep playmaker, and box to box. Sometimes even need to make channel run. It depends on the opponent and the situation in the game.
midfielders for the top clubs need to be able to do it all these days. If you’re not a #10 and you’re walking around the middle letting the oppo pass around you then your place should rightly be up for grabs.
Yes. McFred are conservative because Ole order them to be like that I am afraid. Remember what Ole said about McT after Leeds game?
He sometimes needs to emphasize to McT not to go forward too aggressively in certain games.Matic is the only player we have as holding midfielder and the only one able to control the tempo. He quite often just does some turns to change the situation and get the team back to normal mood from bloody high octane fight. So bad, his legs don’t seem able to be back to before.
lose matic sign ndidi and let fred or mctominay be sub
Even no.10 is not given free pass for work rate nowadays in most teams, except the generational ones, Messi and CR.
I also think Ndidi can partner either of McFred. But he is injure-prone and must be very expensive if we buy him.
Yh they changed their usual setup for us and went for the double pivot - was an awful match. Usually they use one main DM, same as Pool. Obviously all CMs have defensive responsibilities but there's usually one who'd be the main central DM
Ole does not intend for us to give the ball away, the players can’t help it. Regardless of the ethos or formation, we need a player (or some players) who read the game better, position themselves better and control and pass the ball better than Fred and McT. Or we need Fred and McT to get better at those things.
As for not playing the inverted triangle because we give the ball away too much, it’s the players who give the ball away not the formation. As long as we recruit and select players who can’t pass or receive the ball under pressure then we’re going to have that problem.
I praise Ole for adapting his tactics to suit the players we have but the dream is to have a few more intelligent and technically able players so that we can play various formations effectively from game to game and within games.
But hey, I’m really enjoying our football this season so, whatever problems we have, I can’t get too worked up.
Dual-pivot is becoming more and more popular in EPL. Today, Spurs also did it against Chelsea. But Jose doesn’t train them for pressing and they don’t have fitness to do it either. I guess that’s why they can only stay in their half. It gives people impression their approach is too negative.
Yeah would say we only need to play one if we can sign a CDM this summer
Now i am not a Fred fan but that is a weird post. You think Fred is a better player and better for United but you would prefer McTominay over him because he is what 2 years younger and has United DNA?
McTominay should play instead of Fred because he is what British even though Fred is better is that what you are saying ?
If it is about passion or desire then i have seen Fred arguably show more than McTominay in a United shirt so i am curious about this United DNA
Passion and desire? Are we talking about footballers or girlfriends? McTominay is a better player than Fred, end of.
Where do your stats come from because they don't match what Fbref have using Statsbomb's data, nor do they match WhoScored using Opta's data ?
Why are you using per game, instead of per 90 mins ? McTominay coming on as a sub in the last few mins to protect a one goal lead, as happened this season against West Brom, Sheff United, Wolves, Burnley and Fulham, makes per game stats almost totally meaningless. Donny van de Beek makes 12 accurate passes per game in the PL this season but 42.1 on a per 90 mins basis.
On WhoScored, select the detailed option then choose per 90 mins.
Here are the appropriate links:
https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/Scott-McTominay
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/336915/Show/Scott-McTominay
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And, any data themselves without context are meaningless.
It's not a one or the other situation. They play different roles, positionally and tactically.
United don't actually have anyone else who can be usefully compared to Fred. Arguably Matic because both always play as the most defensive midfielder, but they do it so differently it's not really worth the exercise.
As for McTominay, his 'competition', if we have to think about two teammates that way, is Pogba.
United don't actually have anyone else who can be usefully compared to Fred. Arguably Matic because both always play as the most defensive midfielder, but they do it so differently it's not really worth the exercise.
As for McTominay, his 'competition', if we have to think about two teammates that way, is Pogba.
McTominay makes fewer passes because he plays on the right side of midfield. Fred, meanwhile, is usually supported by Shaw/Maguire/Rashford/Bruno/Pogba/Martial (all our most progressive players) naturally drifting into his part of the pitch.
Here are all the recent passmaps I can find of the double pivot. They not only show how lopsided we are in possession, but also how comparatively isolated McTominay usually is on the right:
Here are all the recent passmaps I can find of the double pivot. They not only show how lopsided we are in possession, but also how comparatively isolated McTominay usually is on the right:
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Mctomminay and Fred provide balance but just like the Pogba, Matic and Herrera partnership when we come up against a quality quality side (especially UCL) their insufficiencies will be so apparent it will be ridiculous. Fred loses possession too often for my liking often changing the momentum in the balance of play. They are useful for competing for top four but we need a more dynamic midfield if Solskjaer's intention is to have us winning anything substantial.
These plots really show we need a proper RW. So true.McTominay makes fewer passes because he plays on the right side of midfield. Fred, meanwhile, is usually supported by Shaw/Maguire/Rashford/Bruno/Pogba/Martial (all our most progressive players) naturally drifting into his part of the pitch.
Here are all the recent passmaps I can find of the double pivot. They not only show how lopsided we are in possession, but also how comparatively isolated McTominay usually is on the right:
We keep playing Fred + Scott or Matic + Pogba, when balance-wise it should probably be Fred + Pogba, or Scott + Matic.
This is it. Always surprises me that when Matic starts neither Scott nor Fred are usually involved.
McT had terrible games far more often than Fred. McT has probably had a couple of higher peaks but, on balance of performance to date, Fred is better.
I would say so too but that was not my point at all
Firstly, I have only gone for PL stats. The majority of the games are made up of them, so I think it is the best for determining the use of a player. Cup competitions are alright, but they can have very weak opposition or you can be knocked out of them at any stage. With the PL, you have to play every game every season, so it just makes sense to me.
Secondly, I prefer to go for non-sub games myself as it gives a clearer picture of how they are over a longer period of time and ignore games that are already won. So, I haven't actually included sub games in the stats. Burnley etc. were so short there is no point.
But I have tried with 90 minutes and sub appearances and it doesn't make a lot of difference. He will be 45th in passes per 90 minutes. I have only included those that have played more than 8 full games.
Fred - 65.4 passes per 90 minutes (22nd)
Pogba - 71.2 passes per 90 minutes (16th)
McTominay - 51.2 passes per 90 minutes (45th)
Without sub appearances (pretty much comparing first-team midfielders below), he ranks 29th.
Fred - 66 passes per 90 minutes (12th)
Pogba - 71.6 passes per 90 minutes (8th)
McTominay - 51.3 passes per 90 minutes (29th) - out of 50
The differences are very similar. A 15 pass difference exists in both cases between Fred and McTominay, and he still ranks in the same spot as he did before.
Long ball accuracy won't be impacted as it is based on total long balls, anyway.
Overall, I think it confirms that he is lacking compared to the level of the midfielder we actually need. I mean people might think 15 fewer passes than Fred per match isn't much, but it does come to 570 less if they played every game in the season.
Without context, yes, but you can build a pattern with stats. Now, if Pogba, Fred, and Matic were doing little better in terms of accuracy and number of passes, you would have to question whether other areas are causing the problems. But when the stats of one player amongst four stands out like a sore thumb, the likelihood is that the issue lies with that player. McTominay is the anomaly here.
I'm not saying he doesn't have a use, by the way, just that he isn't first-team material. If we want to sustain Premier League challenges and actually threaten in the CL, I would say he needs to be changed.
