McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

[Ali Dia]

I’ll rightly get stick but our best midfield probably doesn’t have Paul Pogba in it and he’s one of our best and our most in form players. It’s been a conundrum trying to fit him in this season and then he pops up and keeps saving us but I don’t know if we would need saving as often if someone else doing a different job took his spot in the team. I think there’s a good chance we’d end up playing better with a more solid base. He gives up possession and slows us and doesn’t always fight hard enough to get it back and when we have Bruno losing it for fun further ahead it’s a slog trying to get good things going. I think his long ball from midfield and cross from the right side is often too forced and direct and that’s because we are too pedestrian in the midfield and let teams get set up and dug in. Obviously our forwards haven’t been great either. I don’t think Pogba and Bruno complement each other all that well but it’s nice idea on paper and maybe it will click with a new player behind them. I think the Matic and Pogba pairing were a big part of the problem against Sheffield United. on paper they should have been running the show but they rarely do these days

 

[hubbuh]

McTominay is stronger, better in the air and a decent goalscorer. That's pretty much the only things that he's better than Fred at, and they aren't exactly the most important aspects of being a midfielder.

Fred is a significantly better passer (he passes the ball more, plays more long passes, plays the ball forward more often, sets up more goal scoring opportunities and despite all that has a higher success rate) and he wins the ball back more often when the opposition have it. His movement to always be in position to receive the ball when his teammates have it is far better (it's something that is often a huge weakness for McTominay) so it tends to allow the team to be more fluid at moving the ball around.

McTominay has the potential to be a lot better than he has shown so far, and maybe he might end up being better than Fred. But right now it's not particularly close and I can't understand why people put McTominay ahead. He was good tonight, started well against Arsenal in the last match, but had been absolutely terrible for over a month before that ever since his great Leeds match.

Really good post.

 

[The Irish Connection]

Both are class and the engine of our team. Look at Liverpool - Henderson, Wijnaldum, West Ham - Rice, Soucek, Leicester when they won the league - Kante, Drinkwater.
In the premier league you need fierce energy in midfield.
Both play at high intensity and to be honest, at this point, I would nearly fancy Mctominay with a shot at the edge of the box over Pogba, and certainly a header from a corner.
Fred would have had a goal tonight if it wasn’t the own goal, and an assist if not for Martial missing by a whisker.

 

[The Irish Connection]

I’ll rightly get stick but our best midfield probably doesn’t have Paul Pogba in it and he’s one of our best and our most in form players. It’s been a conundrum trying to fit him in this season and then he pops up and keeps saving us but I don’t know if we would need saving as often if someone else doing a different job took his spot in the team. I think there’s a good chance we’d end up playing better with a more solid base. He gives up possession and doesn’t always fight hard enough to get it back and when we have Bruno losing it for fun further ahead it’s a slog trying to get good things going. I don’t think Pogba and Bruno complement each other all that well but it’s nice idea on paper and maybe it will click with a new player behind them. I think the Matic and Pogba pairing were a big part of the problem against Sheffield United and on paper they should have been running the show.

Absolutely. Matic, Pogba and Telles let Sheffield United pass it around our box for five minutes before their deflected goal.

 

[Brightonian]

Midfield pairings that work, always with Bruno ahead of them.

Against top teams:

McT and Fred
Pogba and Fred

Against medium and weak teams:

McT and Fred
Pogba and Fred
McT and Matic
DVB and Fred

Either Fred or Matic must be on the pitch at all times, and Matic doesn't have the legs to play without someone energetic like McT any more. Pogba and Matic are both class but there's absolutely no work rate between them.

It just highlights what our key problem is, that Matic is too old to be our regular DM now, and although Fred has risen well to the challenge, it is unacceptable that he's the only reliable option there. The absolute #1 priority next summer - above RW, above CB, above whatever big name is up for grabs, even above replacing Pogba if he leaves - is a really top-drawer defensive midfielder.

 

[OrcaFat]

Which is not happening anytime soon. That's for one. Secondly, if we continue playing 4-2-3-1, there is not room for #6 (single pivot). You need two hard working B2B there.

If we get a proper 6 we won’t play 4231. You play 4231 when you haven’t got a 6. But yeah, we won’t get a decent 6 any time soon.

 

[OrcaFat]

This pair can create dynamic team play. The only flaw is that they are I think really matters is that they are not very well to control tempo at the moment. They all like quick release of the balls and go forward fast. That’s why sometimes Ole will bring up Matic as substitute to control tempo to slow down a bit.

They both give it away too much. There’s not even half a cool head between them.

 

[Champagne Football]

Couldn't disagree more. McTom is far more streetwise. Fred is a bit of an idiot, see PSG game for example, and as far as first touch goes while neither is brilliant, Freds is pretty awful

Fred just moves the ball quicker, gets things moving quicker and is a little more creative with his passes than McT.

McT is physically a monster, a powerful box to box player who will run all day and break up play. He's quite similar to Darren Fletcher but is far more effective with long shots at goal than Fletcher ever was. Fred moves things quickly like Herrera used to, but Fred is multiple levels higher than Herrera is defensively.

I'd keep McT over Fred due to young age, mental strength and having Utd DNA, but I'd rate Fred as technically a slightly more gifted footballer.

 

[city-puma]

They both give it away too much. There’s not even half a cool head between them.

It’s actually understandable. The press and counter press are all about the explosive actions done in light speed exchanges. Kind of like dogfight. It’s like pinball. You have to look at if they win more than lose, right? Also, to be ice cold in mind in that fight sometimes is just impossible.

 

[city-puma]

Fred just moves the ball quicker, gets things moving quicker and is a little more creative with his passes than McT.

McT is physically a monster, a powerful box to box player who will run all day and break up play. He's quite similar to Darren Fletcher but is far more effective with long shots at goal than Fletcher ever was. Fred moves things quickly like Herrera used to, but Fred is multiple levels higher than Herrera is defensively.

I'd keep McT over Fred due to young age, mental strength and having Utd DNA, but I'd rate Fred as technically a slightly more gifted footballer.

If we still have Herrera, I feel he can form a great pair with either of McFred really.

 

[OrcaFat]

It’s actually understandable. The press and counter press are all about the explosive actions done in light speed exchanges. Kind of like dogfight. It’s like pinball. You have to look at if they win more than lose, right? Also, to be ice cold in mind in that fight sometimes is just impossible.

I like ‘em both but to answer your question, I think they lose more than they win against the better teams. But still they might be the best pair to play in those games. Within that, Fred is better in those tight pressing games than McT. At the moment that is, McT can improve I’m sure.

 

[city-puma]

I like ‘em both but to answer your question, I think they lose more than they win against the better teams. But still they might be the best pair to play in those games. Within that, Fred is better in those tight pressing games than McT. At the moment that is, McT can improve I’m sure.

I think they win less against city or pool simply because they outnumber McFred in press. Our forwards have less press and as the unit we are not as good as those two team in terms of press.

 

[MadDogg]

If we still have Herrera, I feel he can form a great pair with either of McFred really.

I'm not sure if he'd be able to partner McTominay as there wouldn't be enough passing and ball control ability. That's the main aspect that Fred is ahead of both of them, being able to act as the main ball player in the deeper midfield area. I'll always wonder how a Fred-Herrera combo would go, although they might be a bit too similar and get in each others way.

 

[city-puma]

I'm not sure if he'd be able to partner McTominay as there wouldn't be enough passing and ball control ability. That's the main aspect that Fred is ahead of both of them, being able to act as the main ball player in the deeper midfield area. I'll always wonder how a Fred-Herrera combo would go, although they might be a bit too similar and get in each others way.

Herrera is like the half and half from Fred and McT. Pairing Herrera and Fred might have some issue in aerial duel. Well. He’s gone. We need to find one this summer, either from transfer market or promote a youngster.

 

[Borys]

If we get a proper 6 we won’t play 4231. You play 4231 when you haven’t got a 6. But yeah, we won’t get a decent 6 any time soon.

And what do we do with Bruno? I don't see Ole reverting to 3 man midfield.

 

[Polar]

It’s difficult for me to say, because I’m a fan of Fred. He is one of the main reasons behind our transformation, but I think our future progress is limited by relying on Fred on the midfield.

Fred lacks offensive skills, and we can’t count on him at all in our attack. If we want the team to take it to the next level we cannot afford having midfielders as blind passengers in our offensive play.

I strongly believe in McT. He is a great all round player who likely will develop. He clearly has a higher potential; is ready to take more steps in the right direction.

 

[MadDogg]

It’s difficult for me to say, because I’m a fan of Fred. He is one of the main reasons behind our transformation, but I think our future progress is limited by relying on Fred on the midfield.

Fred lacks offensive skills, and we can’t count on him at all in our attack. If we want the team to take it to the next level we cannot afford having midfielders as blind passengers in our offensive play.

I think it's worth noting that Fred does seem to be improving at that. He's never going to score many goals, although he's been unlucky not to score two in his last two matches with an own goal stealing a tap-in against Southampton and a world class fingertip save stopping him scoring against Arsenal. But his offensive passing does seem to be improving. Over the last couple of months he's created 5 or 6 clear cut chances that really should have been assists (including the great through ball to Martial against Southampton where he knocked it a few inches wide), as well as quite a few half chances. One thing that is becoming increasingly common is him playing nice balls through the lines to Bruno or our striker when they are in space just around the edge of the box, with Cavani winning a penalty from one, Bruno hitting the post from another and Bruno forcing a very good save from a third, and that's just what I've noticed off the top of my head.

I'm hoping he'll keep improving further in that aspect as well.

 

[Oldtraffordboy]

McFred can press high, and can tackle in the middle, and can sprint out to the ball when dropping deep.

Matic is more about interceptions and holding a position, and looks very laboured at his age.

Pogba is a conundrum.

No player is a like for like. Given there are rarely easy games in the prem, I always find myself happier when I see McFred in the starting line up.

 

[OrcaFat]

And what do we do with Bruno? I don't see Ole reverting to 3 man midfield.

If we buy a true 6 then I would expect to see a traditional 6-8-10 midfield. With McFred it’s more like two quasi 6s and a 10.

 

[OrcaFat]

I think they win less against city or pool simply because they outnumber McFred in press. Our forwards have less press and as the unit we are not as good as those two team in terms of press.

These two might be the best we’ve got but neither of them is good enough on the ball under pressure. Not if we want to win titles. Of the two, Fred is better, just now.

 

[Borys]

If we buy a true 6 then I would expect to see a traditional 6-8-10 midfield. With McFred it’s more like two quasi 6s and a 10.

But you said before we will drop 4-2-3-1?

Sorry to press you but a lot of people on here think we only need to sign a deep lying midfielder/#6 and all issues go away, and I just don't see it because:
1. #6 is hard to get
2. If we plan to go with #6 it would require two more midfielders to play in midfield 3, and Bruno is definitely not the man for that job (not because he can't play deeper, but because he's much more effective close to the box)
3. Let's say we play man midfield + Bruno, it means we still need #8 to play between #6 and Bruno, who is that guy in our squad? Or you assume we need a new #8 as well?

Personally what I think we should do is buy one defensive-minded box to box midfielder, which will fit in nicely into 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. If our fullbacks remain on current level I'm happy with more conservative midfield two.

 

[Ayrshire Red]

Last night highlighted, well so I feel, how good McTominay is at spreading the ball across the pitch out to our full backs when they push high up the pitch. It’s almost the Scholes like switch of play he has, and that’s highlighted in a few of the goals he’s scored with the power in the shots. I also feel he’s more 2 footed than Fred, who always looks to shift the ball onto his left to play a pass rather than go with the first time pass/cross/shot on his right. I get he’s more in control and comfortable with his left, but more often than not we seem to lose the momentum of the attack.

 

[keithsingleton]

I never feel Fred can score a goal either, the few times he has had a shot he tends to fluff them. His assist level pretty much zero too. Yes he's disputation isn't bad but that isn't enough for me. I honest think McTom still improving also.

Fred is already the finished article and what you get is what you see. Where as with McTom I just see constant improvement who also when we play the high line looks capable of a goal or two.

 

[cyberman]

As a team, our performances started to slip when Pogba turned it on and we split these 2 up and/or trying to fit Pogba in on the left and right.
Tonight was how it should be in terms of balance and they were fantastic yet again

 

[Judas]

McTominay is one of our finest and cleanest strikers of the ball in our squad. Imagine Fred had his finishing.

 

[Polar]

What do you think?

Fred
McT Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood/Cavani Rashford/Martial

 

[OrcaFat]

But you said before we will drop 4-2-3-1?

Sorry to press you but a lot of people on here think we only need to sign a deep lying midfielder/#6 and all issues go away, and I just don't see it because:
1. #6 is hard to get
2. If we plan to go with #6 it would require two more midfielders to play in midfield 3, and Bruno is definitely not the man for that job (not because he can't play deeper, but because he's much more effective close to the box)
3. Let's say we play man midfield + Bruno, it means we still need #8 to play between #6 and Bruno, who is that guy in our squad? Or you assume we need a new #8 as well?

Personally what I think we should do is buy one defensive-minded box to box midfielder, which will fit in nicely into 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. If our fullbacks remain on current level I'm happy with more conservative midfield two.

I think if we have a no.6 who’s up to the job (and I agree they don’t grow on trees) we can play 6-8-10, which would effectively be 3 in midfield with Bruno as 10.

Or if it makes it easier to explain, you can still call it 4231, but instead of the midfield 2 being 2 similar players, they have more clearly defined roles where the 6 sits deeper and the 8 has a box to box role. You could give McT and Fred instructions to play that way but neither is quite good enough to play the 6 role. The reason I prefer it is that it gives the team better shape defensively and gives the CBs some reassurance.

As for who this magical 6 will be, I couldn’t tell you. But either way, McFred don’t have the quality to take us to titles, they’re just not good enough in possession. For now they are often an effective pair and I don’t disagree with their selection, in the main.

 

[RashfordisRed]

I am starting to think the idea that they are both too defensive and not good enough on the ball is maybe not entirely correct. They are obviously not as good as Paul Pogba on the ball, but they can both be effective going forward and a pivot where one goes and the other sits is not the worst option, it also seems to bring the best out of Bruno.

I actually am starting to notice that the more they play together consistently, the better their on the ball work is, whether that be passing, making runs into the box or even shooting, generally making the right choices. It may be the case that when they have a period out of the team, the part that is more difficult for them to pick up is their play on the ball where as when they are having to deal with the press, and match intensity whilst on the ball more regularly their levels in this aspect do improve. Fred's passing, especially through the lines can be good and with Scott there he is able to press higher to win the ball back and create overloads. Scott when settled in the team has a good passing range, not to mention his ability to score goals - he is young and will continue to improve.

There are some players where being in and out of the team does not really help them, and I am starting to think that could be the case with both Fred and Scott which makes me lean towards potentially reverting back to them as our first choice pivot.

The issue thereafter is Pogba in the form he has shown and his quality is too good not to start, add to that the atmosphere when he is not playing I think he has to start. A potential method could be starting to use Pogba as a RM, working closely with Bruno and interchanging. It is effectively a diamond with Marcus giving the width on the left (being his best position) and Pogba / Bruno / Scott providing the creativity down the right. Nowadays a lot of right wingers do effectively spend a lot more time inside and you can't say Pogba is not capable of taking on a man on the outside and putting some good deliveries in.

Would be interesting to see Pogba playing off the right with those two behind him, in a game where we have more of the ball and he can be work with Bruno with both having more of a licence to affect the final third - so far he played right side in games where we were really looking to counter - I wonder if we could try it next week against West Ham in the cup - a front 4 as follows:

Pogba DVB Mason
Martial

 

[RashfordisRed]

I think if we have a no.6 who’s up to the job (and I agree they don’t grow on trees) we can play 6-8-10, which would effectively be 3 in midfield with Bruno as 10.

Or if it makes it easier to explain, you can still call it 4231, but instead of the midfield 2 being 2 similar players, they have more clearly defined roles where the 6 sits deeper and the 8 has a box to box role. You could give McT and Fred instructions to play that way but neither is quite good enough to play the 6 role. The reason I prefer it is that it gives the team better shape defensively and gives the CBs some reassurance.

As for who this magical 6 will be, I couldn’t tell you. But either way, McFred don’t have the quality to take us to titles, they’re just not good enough in possession. For now they are often an effective pair and I don’t disagree with their selection, in the main.

Quite a good point you raise, where rather than looking at a new 6 to play two creative midfielders (one being Bruno) - rather a top quality 6 which would enable Scott / Bruno play more box to box without worrying as much what is behind them (basically taking their handbrake off) or even DVB growing into that role.

Since lockdown I have watched a lot of English football, not much abroad but where as I was not really a Declan Rice fan, I am starting to grow to him and think he may be able to do that role - he fits into our transfer dynamic of young and English, proven in the Prem and is a leader, not to mention our record of signing West Ham academy products with similar profiles is second to none (notably Rio & Carrick) - we may be in a better position to sign him now with Lingard going the other way and Frank no longer at Chelsea.

 

[Borys]

I think if we have a no.6 who’s up to the job (and I agree they don’t grow on trees) we can play 6-8-10, which would effectively be 3 in midfield with Bruno as 10.

Or if it makes it easier to explain, you can still call it 4231, but instead of the midfield 2 being 2 similar players, they have more clearly defined roles where the 6 sits deeper and the 8 has a box to box role. You could give McT and Fred instructions to play that way but neither is quite good enough to play the 6 role. The reason I prefer it is that it gives the team better shape defensively and gives the CBs some reassurance.

As for who this magical 6 will be, I couldn’t tell you. But either way, McFred don’t have the quality to take us to titles, they’re just not good enough in possession. For now they are often an effective pair and I don’t disagree with their selection, in the main.

Bruno is not a midfielder, if you play him in #10 (as it should be) than it effectively leaves us with two man midfield. I strongly disagree with the idea that you replace McTominay and Fred and we improve significantly as a team in keeping possession/controlling the game. This is a tactical issue and Ole doesn't want us to keep the ball, and that's why we play do direct football. Also, this can be improved with coaching, but both McTominay and Fred are very underrated on this forum IMO.

 

[city-puma]

What do you think?

Fred
McT Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood/Cavani Rashford/Martial

We tried this or its variations many times for over a month in many games, i.e., the diamond system. Mostly in the games, it eventually became a parallelogram or some really messy shapes. We cannot press or counter press the opponents as well as the McFred dual pivot setup. It’s the reason Ole has to adjust the diamond by putting Rashford to right side so many times. I think the reason is that as good and hardworking as pogba did after back to fitness, pogba naturally lack high level intensity and stamina, and he is not quick enough nor agile enough. Pogba seems best suited to a slower system dominating the opponents with space and time for him to make difference.

 

[Ali Dia]

Pressing higher up the pitch aggressively let’s us get the ball to the forwards before the opposition defence is fully set and their midfield have pushed up. With Pogba and Matic in the team we don’t press or try and force a mistake at all. We try and build from deep and its often too slow against teams who sit back. Add that to the fact they both stand off in the defensive phase and it’s a recipe for disaster.

 

[Lentwood]

It’s a flawed idea that playing two central midfielders at home is negative.

Sometimes less is more and you need the structure given by two CMs to keep the ball moving efficiently

Just throwing attackers on the pitch generally leads to a chaotic approach

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Yes. Thread/

 

[romufc]

It’s a flawed idea that playing two central midfielders at home is negative.

Sometimes less is more and you need the structure given by two CMs to keep the ball moving efficiently

Just throwing attackers on the pitch generally leads to a chaotic approach

I saw a few people when the line up came out say defensive, Ole protecting his back 4 etc..

We cannot have everything, we cannot have full backs bombing and CM's bombing, it is not sustainable. We have seen it in so many games when we get opened up in midfield. McFred give us energy, protection and balance.

I know we all want to see Pogba but in the last 2 games what has Pogba done? he was given the CM role and didn't really have great games. At least with McFred you know they will hassle opponents to stop them playing around at will.

 

[Borys]

It’s a flawed idea that playing two central midfielders at home is negative.

Sometimes less is more and you need the structure given by two CMs to keep the ball moving efficiently

Just throwing attackers on the pitch generally leads to a chaotic approach

This. There is no such thing as "defensive setup", because any setup can be played multiple ways. Take 5 at the back as an example, is it negative if you have two wingbacks bombing forward? The same applies to 4-3-3, you can tell midfielders to stay back or to join the attack.

I saw a few people when the line up came out say defensive, Ole protecting his back 4 etc..

We cannot have everything, we cannot have full backs bombing and CM's bombing, it is not sustainable. We have seen it in so many games when we get opened up in midfield. McFred give us energy, protection and balance.

I know we all want to see Pogba but in the last 2 games what has Pogba done? he was given the CM role and didn't really have great games. At least with McFred you know they will hassle opponents to stop them playing around at will.

Pogba is a better individual than both Fred and McTominay, but he plays at slower pace and tends to drift out wide. Which is fine if he is the attacking midfielder, but when he plays in midfield we just lose shape.

 

[romufc]

Pogba is a better individual than both Fred and McTominay, but he plays at slower pace and tends to drift out wide. Which is fine if he is the attacking midfielder, but when he plays in midfield we just lose shape.

Not saying he isnt. Pogba is probably the most talented in our squad. The problem is how to fit him in without ruining the balance of the team.

 

[Borys]

Not saying he isnt. Pogba is probably the most talented in our squad. The problem is how to fit him in without ruining the balance of the team.

You don't. I'm happy to sell him, he doesn't fit (in my opinion he doesn't fit this league in general, but obviously he doesn't fit our team in the first place).
We could get decent money for him and use it to strengthen our first team.

 

[romufc]

You don't. I'm happy to sell him, he doesn't fit (in my opinion he doesn't fit this league in general, but obviously he doesn't fit our team in the first place).
We could get decent money for him and use it to strengthen our first team.

I am in agreement. I know some fans say give him a new contract after few good performances, but Pogba is notorious for that. He gives us 3/4 good games then gets complacent. If he wins us a trophy this season, it would be good but either way, I do feel we should build without him.

 

[OrcaFat]

Bruno is not a midfielder, if you play him in #10 (as it should be) than it effectively leaves us with two man midfield. I strongly disagree with the idea that you replace McTominay and Fred and we improve significantly as a team in keeping possession/controlling the game. This is a tactical issue and Ole doesn't want us to keep the ball, and that's why we play do direct football. Also, this can be improved with coaching, but both McTominay and Fred are very underrated on this forum IMO.

Sorry but Bruno is an attacking midfielder. He plays that position for us with two central midfielders behind him. I will guarantee you that Ole does not want his players to give the ball away with the regularity of McFred. Clearly he often is willing to sacrifice the passing ability of Matic and Pogba in favour of the lungs and legs of McFred and I can’t say I mind that too much, in most matches.

I don’t know how many times I have to say I like these two guys. Their attitude is good and they bring something to the team. But in the long term, they are just not good enough in possession. Many games this season we have been hanging on for dear life in the last ten minutes with those two kicking it in all directions except to one of our players. They’re not the only ones guilty of that but when you have both your midfielders doing it, it’s agony. I want to see them augmented by a calm, intelligent no.6 in the Carrick mould.

If you prefer to stick with McFred, you have a different idea of where this team should be heading than I do.