McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

[Web of Bissaka]

Two words - Squad Depth

Also, with McT in the team, we never lost any of the games vs the big boys + Leicester & Wolves this season.

Thread/

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Two words - Squad Depth

Also, with McT in the team, we never lost any of the games vs the big boys + Leicester & Wolves this season.

Thread/

Two words - Squad Depth

Also, with McT in the team, we never lost any of the games vs the big boys + Leicester & Wolves this season.

Thread/

They provide squad depth yet Matic is still our only DM, Pogba is still our only creative CM and we are still crying out for a Bruno back up. If we get a DM and backup AM we would need only one of them.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

They provide squad depth yet Matic is still our only DM, Pogba is still our only creative CM and we are still crying out for a Bruno back up.

1 CAM: Bruno
4 CM: Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McT
3 DM: Matic, Fred, McT

1st strings: Bruno and Pogba only
2nd strings/squad players: Matic, Fred, McT

If we get a DM and backup AM we would need only one of them.

Seems like even once we get a top DM and backup AM, we still need 'em both.

Matic is shorter-term so if we remove him from the equation..
2 CAM: Bruno, AM
4 CM: Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McT
3 DM: DM, Fred, McT

If we only look at their best roles or which roles they are mainly being used,
2 CAM: Bruno, AM
3 CM: Pogba, Fred, McT
1 DM: DM

Unless we should spend more on getting another backup DM but by then McT is likely will improve more to be sufficient enough as DM cover.
Both Fred and McT are fine as DM cover.

So turns out, we still need both Fred and McT to cover for the new DM and cover Pogba.

 

[Stacks]

Didn't both players play in our wins vs Chelsea earlier in the season? Also decent prem level players. Also put in some decent CL performances. Need

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Didn't both players play in our wins vs Chelsea earlier in the season? Also decent prem level players. Also put in some decent CL performances. Need

Which decent CL performances?

The one vs PSG? We fluked that. No one played well that game.

They did play well in our big games this season, but I'd rather we move away from that type of midfield more fit to lesser sides.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Which decent CL performances?

The one vs PSG? We fluked that. No one played well that game.

They did play well in our big games this season, but I'd rather we move away from that type of midfield more fit to lesser sides.

Fluke?
Guess the 99 final is also a fluke then and no one from that legendary team played well in that game

Decent CL performances by both/either
18/19
Won 3-1 vs PSG -- both did enough to combat their midfield (Herrera-Matic-Pogba couldn't in 1st leg).
Lost 0-1 vs Barca -- McT played well here. Fred is decent. (both are utilized rightly with deeper defensive-focused roles).
Lost 0-3 vs Barca --- McT were decent here, our best player that gave a feck and didn't feck-up (bizarrely his starting role is attacking here, no wonder why).

17/18
Drew 0-0 Sevilla -- McT decent.
Won 2-0 Benfica -- McT decent.

 

[Bobcat]

Yes we need both. There are still deadwood at the club, but those two are not it and its not like we are spoiled for depth either

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

[/QUOTE]
Matic just signed a three year contract. If we get a new DM Matic covers for him. Mctominay and Fred aren't DMs and should be cover for Pogba.

AM - Bruno, new AM
CM - Pogba Fred Mctominay
DM - new DM, Matic

1 CAM: Bruno
4 CM: Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McT
3 DM: Matic, Fred, McT

1st strings: Bruno and Pogba only
2nd strings/squad players: Matic, Fred, McT


Seems like even once we get a top DM and backup AM, we still need 'em both.

Matic is shorter-term so if we remove him from the equation..
2 CAM: Bruno, AM
4 CM: Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McT
3 DM: DM, Fred, McT

If we only look at their best roles or which roles they are mainly being used,
2 CAM: Bruno, AM
3 CM: Pogba, Fred, McT
1 DM: DM

Unless we should spend more on getting another backup DM but by then McT is likely will improve more to be sufficient enough as DM cover.
Both Fred and McT are fine as DM cover.

So turns out, we still need both Fred and McT to cover for the new DM and cover Pogba.

This only works if you think Fred and Mctominay can play DMs which I think they can't. Not to the level of effectiveness we want. And why remove Matic when he just signed a three year contract and is better quality than them.

We don't need both. Nobody is saying we don't need squad depth but we need to replace them with midfielders who add more to the team. They are basically CMs that are defensive but can't play DM

They are similar in that both aren't DMs so they leave us with an ageing Matic as our only DM. Both are CMs but are not creative so they leave us with Pogba as our only creative CM. So even with CMs like Fred and Mctominay we are still crying out for a DM and a creative midfielder. We can't have two defensive CMs and none can play DM. We can't have two CMs and none can provide creativity when Pogba is out.

I'd personally sell Fred and replace him with a creative DM. I think he was our best player pre lockdown but we need more of a creative DM than him. Plus I think we can get some good money from him. Mctominay is young so can get better as a box to box

Sell Fred and bring in a creative DM to cover for Matic. Mctominay can be backup to Pogba. Also get a back up AM to cover for Bruno

Our midfield next season should be something like this - Matic Tonali Bruno Mctominay Pogba Grealish and Garner/Levitt/Hannibal. (Just threw in Grealish and Tonali as examples)

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Fluke?
Guess the 99 final is also a fluke then and no one from that legendary team played well in that game

Decent CL performances by both/either
18/19
Won 3-1 vs PSG -- both did enough to combat their midfield (Herrera-Matic-Pogba couldn't in 1st leg).
Lost 0-1 vs Barca -- McT played well here. Fred is decent. (both are utilized rightly with deeper defensive-focused roles).
Lost 0-3 vs Barca --- McT were decent here, our best player that gave a feck and didn't feck-up (bizarrely his starting role is attacking here, no wonder why).

17/18
Drew 0-0 Sevilla -- McT decent.
Won 2-0 Benfica -- McT decent.

We did get outplayed in the '99 final.

But we got even more outplayed by PSG and had to rely on a pen and a howler from Buffon. No one that game played well to me. I mean we had sub 30% possession. We scored 3 goals from absolutely nothing.

It was as bad as Chelsea going past Barcelona in 2012. Divine luck saved us.

We have different standards if they were decent in that game. They were a training cone. PSG missed plenty of chances to wrap the game up.

Now, they did play extremely well vs City in the league(not once, but twice)and Chelsea as well. That I admit.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Matic just signed a three year contract. If we get a new DM Matic covers for him. Mctominay and Fred aren't DMs and should be cover for Pogba.

AM - Bruno, new AM
CM - Pogba Fred Mctominay
DM - new DM, Matic

This only works if you think Fred and Mctominay can play DMs which I think they can't. Not to the level of effectiveness we want. And why remove Matic when he just signed a three year contract and is better quality than them.

We don't need both. Nobody is saying we don't need squad depth but we need to replace them with midfielders who add more to the team. They are basically CMs that are defensive but can't play DM

They are similar in that both aren't DMs so they leave us with an ageing Matic as our only DM. Both are CMs but are not creative so they leave us with Pogba as our only creative CM. So even with CMs like Fred and Mctominay we are still crying out for a DM and a creative midfielder. We can't have two defensive CMs and none can play DM. We can't have two CMs and none can provide creativity when Pogba is out.

I'd personally sell Fred and replace him with a creative DM. I think he was our best player pre lockdown but we need more of a creative DM than him. Plus I think we can get some good money from him. Mctominay is young so can get better as a box to box

Sell Fred and bring in a creative DM to cover for Matic. Mctominay can be backup to Pogba. Also get a back up AM to cover for Bruno

Our midfield next season should be something like this - Matic Tonali Bruno Mctominay Pogba Grealish and Garner/Levitt/Hannibal. (Just threw in Grealish and Tonali as examples)

Alright fair enough.
Yes, I can understand your point of view.

We can't agree on how we rate them both as players.
But I'm confident we can agree that getting a new midfielder is not an immediate priority for next season. There are other positions on attacks and defenses that needs to be prioritized more. Also between AM, CM and DM.. AM is the first priority, then DM 2nd and only then CM the 3rd.

I'm not confident Matic will last that long, to be an adequate cover. He is already declining and at most he is still good enough for few games next season, but season 21/22 onwards?

I also have big doubts our club will be getting new CM and DM in the immediate future. Would be great if our club act like a real top team and splash the cash but then we rarely doing that.

Therefore we still need both Fred and McT for now and next season minimum. Once we're actually getting newer midfielders (CM and/or DM) with the transfer talk ongoing or completed, for me the growing declined Matic should be the first to go followed by Fred.

Good discussing this with you.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

We did get outplayed in the '99 final.

But we got even more outplayed by PSG and had to rely on a pen and a howler from Buffon. No one that game played well to me. I mean we had sub 30% possession. We scored 3 goals from absolutely nothing.

It was as bad as Chelsea going past Barcelona in 2012. Divine luck saved us.

We have different standards if they were decent in that game. They were a training cone. PSG missed plenty of chances to wrap the game up.

Now, they did play extremely well vs City in the league(not once, but twice)and Chelsea as well. That I admit.

Okay I get you.

We took our chances and they didn't. We were also clinical and they weren't + couldn't stop our few clinical attacks. They also made mistakes which teammates couldn't cover, mistakes which we mercilessly grab and turn into golden chances 3 times. That's players playing well.

We also have different understanding of lucks, so it's fine. For me, we made our own lucks in that PSG game by playing all the right cards and grabbing any chances we can get. Again for me, this shows our players played well and kept focus in those moments.

Similar with the 99 final, bayern dominated the game clearly but couldn't finish and get more goals to kill it, and we kept on going continue attacking and grabbed our only two chances.

Many times in football, dominating possession and play without the goals is just pointless and merely bragging rights and self-consolation eg. "We dominate the game but United were lucky!" actually meant "We dominate but didn't kill the game because our finishing are rubbishes".

Whoever score more wins, doesn't matter if the losing team dominates or not. At least one player should be the one from the "undeserved" winning team that played well (= decent), doesn't make sense if they win where everyone played poorly.

Maybe we defined "decent" differently.

 

[RooneyLegend]

We need neither.

 

[groovyalbert]

In an ideal world, no. This is not an ideal world, so yes.

 

[Trex]

Watching United vs Chelsea there was this passage of play were Lindelof stepped into midfield to dictate play, I realized the extra dimension it would give us if we had a ball playing holding midfielder instead of one of Fred or mcsause,I'll be all in for replacing Fred with one

 

[LuckyScout78]

Every team need a player like McTerminator. Athlete and super aggresive. Opponent players hate to meet players like that. Players that give them lesser and short time with the ball. Just ask Matic and players who need a bit more time and touches on the ball. And McT is covering all of areas too. Quick in first metres and hard to take the ball from him, because of his physical.

Fred kind of players are many out there. And a lot better too.

Pobga, McTom, Matic and a new players like Sandro Tonali. A qualiy and level of Sandro Tonali. Then those 4 options would be good.

But again. Milner is not best with the ball. But his fighting spirit and engine. Every team need someone who will turn up the speed, fighting spirit and aggresiveness. And remember, the period without Pogba. United will not still be in the race for top 4. If McTom didnt play most of the game. 4 premier goals in the league is really good. And the goal against City. It show the full packet of McTom. The drive, engine and British mentality. You are in premier league. You get to have that DNA. Not only good with the ball, but a top and brave mentality too.

Right now McTom has top mentality, but is lacking the ball abilities. With training and playing with the best in Pobga and Bruno. Hope he will learn from them. How to treat the ball the most effective way.

 

[marc1_007]

Every team need a player like McTerminator. Athlete and super aggresive. Opponent players hate to meet players like that. Players that give them lesser and short time with the ball. Just ask Matic and players who need a bit more time and touches on the ball. And McT is covering all of areas too. Quick in first metres and hard to take the ball from him, because of his physical.

Fred kind of players are many out there. And a lot better too.

Pobga, McTom, Matic and a new players like Sandro Tonali. A qualiy and level of Sandro Tonali. Then those 4 options would be good.

But again. Milner is not best with the ball. But his fighting spirit and engine. Every team need someone who will turn up the speed, fighting spirit and aggresiveness. And remember, the period without Pogba. United will not still be in the race for top 4. If McTom didnt play most of the game. 4 premier goals in the league is really good. And the goal against City. It show the full packet of McTom. The drive, engine and British mentality. You are in premier league. You get to have that DNA. Not only good with the ball, but a top and brave mentality too.

Right now McTom has top mentality, but is lacking the ball abilities. With training and playing with the best in Pobga and Bruno. Hope he will learn from them. How to treat the ball the most effective way.

Appearances
Fred 29, McTominay 26

Minutes
Fred 2159, McT 1766

Passes
Fred 1668(57.5), McTominay 1011(38.8)

Pass%
Fred 87.47%, McT 80.91%

Forward Pass
Fred 441(15.2), McT 310(11.9)

Touches
Fred 2185(75.3), McT 1413(54.3)

Dispossessed
Fred 26(0.89), McT 29(1.1)

Blocks
Fred 8, McT 5

Interceptions
Fred 38(1.3), McT 31(1.2)

Tackles
Fred 60(2), McT 42(1.6)

Tackles won
Fred 32(1.1), McT 21(0.8)

Headed Clearances
Fred 7(0.24), McT 20(0.77)

Aerial Battles won
Fred 9(0.3), McT 44(1.7)

Obviously McTominay is severely overrated on here, I'm not the biggest fan of Fred either but I'm not sure what you are watching because everytime I see McTominay play, it's always ridiculous how much he gives the ball away either by his lack of passing ability or when he thinks he is Roy Keane and tries to run with the ball and loses it almost every time. Fred is too small in my opinion to play as a defensive midfielder but he sure does a much better job at it than McTominay and even as a box to box midfielder, I prefer Fred because at least he does not give possession away as much as Mctominay does.

The only thing McTominay does better than Fred is shoot the ball and is also better in the air but, I'd rather have a defensive midfielder who can keep the ball instead of having a good shot on him but always losing the ball.

A lot of fans have a selective memory when it comes to players that they like more than others so in those instances I'd rather use facts to back up what I saw in the games and I'd rather both players be replaced by a player like Declan Rice but if not I'd rather keep Fred because clearly he is the better player.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We clearly don't need them. If Ole would rather leave a shit Pogba or shit Bruno on the pitch for full 90 when Fred or Mctominay can't come on and do worse than them then what's the point of them. If Ole would rather play an easily fatigued Matic in every game then what's the point of having them. Since the lockdown and in this tight race for top 4 Ole has only found them to be useful only when we want to close the game. As midfielders you should be more useful than that and if Ole doesn't think so then we don't need both

 

[Borys]

Quite a shock this thread is, how people don't rate players who had a very good season pre Covid is surprising. Not rotating in midfield is costing us right now.

 

[noodlehair]

We need both of them very desperately and aren't using them, and it could well cost us top four.

Pogba and Matic have been an absolute disaster the last few games they've played together and poor individually as well. Tactically they don't work as a pair full stop.

This forum is absolutely fecking delusional.

 

[red_de_pologne]

will be gutted to see Fred go, he was immense when he had a place in the starting 11

 

[M Bison]

If Fred does leave, it must be down to him asking for a loan move. He didn’t play much post-lockdown and with VdB coming in that’s probably going to reduce further. After a difficult start he’s shown his ability and if I was him I’d want to be playing week in/out, a loan move is fair enough.

 

[Renegade]

Sending Fred on loan would be ridiculous. He cost us 50m and is entering his prime years we need to get as much money back as we can before his contract runs lower

 

[Albin Johansson]

We need both. End of. They're both great players and the talk about replacing them with better players is simply insane. Did you say the same when our stand-ins were tom cleverley and darron gibson, whom both by the way contributed in a title winning side? I bet you weren't even around for that, because then you wouldn't be so fecking clueless suggesting this crap. For the first time in YEARS we're having a good set of central midfielders that we can use in a range of different formations.

We don't need pereira though.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Fred is the only one in this team who can play in Matic role so sending him on loan would be ridiculous move.
McT is needed for depth but we can do without him now when we hsve de Beek. As 6th midfielder we can use Pereira

 

[MDFC Manager]

Would be stupid to sell/loan Fred, especially before ridding of the likes of Pereira and Lingard.

 

[EwanI Ted]

I think Fred is closest to getting the chop, but it would be silly to sell him this summer unless someone wants to pay big money for him (and who could even do that right now). We have a lot of new players floating around, let’s see what formation and play style we settle on first. If Fred is surplus to requirements still, then we could sell him at the end of the season. A loan would be an awful idea, worst of both worlds.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

If Fred does leave, it must be down to him asking for a loan move. He didn’t play much post-lockdown and with VdB coming in that’s probably going to reduce further. After a difficult start he’s shown his ability and if I was him I’d want to be playing week in/out, a loan move is fair enough.

We aren’t loaning Fred.

He either stays because he’s part of the plan, or he’s sold. He’s not a youngster who would benefit from a loan, there is zero point in Utd loaning him out.

He’s been poor more than he’s been good. He will get games if he stays, but he’s Clearly expendable.

 

[SambaBoy]

I'd keep both. Not sure if Fred will be happy with a further reduced role this season however. I think it's clear that both can only play as an 8, both are very poor as a 6. If we can recoup £30m for Fred then it would probably be better to let him go.

 

[Castia]

I don’t want to see Fred go. We need both players imo.

Lingard, Pereira and Mata should be sold.

 

[dove]

Neither of these 2 are good enough and I think one of them should be sold this window and then another one next summer. Selling Perreira, Lingard and 3 defenders should be our priority.

 

[Class of 63]

We need them both, and I hope they both stay. There's half a dozen i'd move on before either of them.

 

[Bwuk]

Fred will go.

Pogba, Bruno, VdB, McTominay, Matic and we are still being linked with the likes of Thiago etc.

 

[Skills]

We'll regret letting Fred go. He's better than McTominay can ever hope to be and he's actually better than Matic as well. There's just a weird hipster wankfest around Matic atm.

 

[simplyared]

Now we've almost got VDB, Fred is surplus to requirements imo. Would be idiotic to get rid of MacT.

 

[Kostov]

If a club comes in with a 40m pounds bid then I can see a reason selling him, otherwise there is no point. He did improve on his first season and he can contribute in our next season.

 

[andersj]

Only speculating, but I think Fred has been unwise on a few occasions in the media with remarks he has made. Including about OGS coaching ability.

By the word of an italian I once knew, he talks too much.

I do think he is a good player, but he is a poor defender (who is also prone to be making stupid mistakes) and offers basically nothing going forward. At the age of 27 I'm not sure we will have much patience with him. I also think he has a higher cost than McTominay (wages and alternative cost in terms of selling value).

 

[Skills]

Only speculating, but I think Fred has been unwise on a few occasions in the media with remarks he has made. Including about OGS coaching ability.

By the word of an italian I once knew, he talks too much.

Quote?

I've never heard him speak personally

 

[LucasXXII]

If both are willing to stay then what's the problem?

Also VdB is very versatile and can play as a central midfielder as well as an attacking midfielder. Ideally VdB would occupy all of the playing time between Mata/Lingard/Pereira as well as some of Matic/Fred/McT, so the latter three won't see a drastic reduce in minutes (unless we're bringing in yet another midfielder of course).

 

[Skills]

If both are willing to stay then what's the problem?

Also VdB is very versatile and can play as a central midfielder as well as an attacking midfielder. Ideally VdB would occupy all of the playing time between Mata/Lingard/Pereira as well as some of Matic/Fred/McT, so the latter three won't see a drastic reduce in minutes (unless we're bringing in yet another midfielder of course).

Bruno's already taken most of Mata/Lingard/Perreiras minutes. VDB will take the rest.

Pogba and Matic will take most of Fred and McTominays minutes from this season.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Does covid mean he has to postpone his 2020 wedding? Going to really affect pre season next year if he’s fitting in two weddings in 2021.