McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

[Chesterlestreet]

Not sure how well suited Fred is to a backup/rotation role, to be honest. He strikes me as someone who thrives on being selected frequently/regularly.

Nothing against him as a player, be it said - he's better than some give him credit for. But some players just aren't cut out for playing the odd game here and there - they need to get into a groove in order to perform.

 

[Denis' cuff]

I thought Pogba was in the process of renewing his contract?

because his agent said so, does not mean United will do so, although they might.

The only noises are coming from the agent, as per...

 

[hubbuh]

It’s the only position outside of GK that we have sufficient depth in. Keep them both for this season and see how it pans out.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

I like Fred. When playing regularly he's consistent and decent. But his 0 goals and 0 assists is an issue in CM.

I'd give him a loan and then review next summer.

McTominay keep as a squad player

 

[romufc]

I do not think we can afford to loan players like Fred out. If no one wants to buy him for £30m plus then he stays and plays as a squad option. He will get games.

I see 0 value in sending him on loan. What do we achieve? one midfielder light, no money in.

 

[suheilsworld]

I do not think we can afford to loan players like Fred out. If no one wants to buy him for £30m plus then he stays and plays as a squad option. He will get games.

I see 0 value in sending him on loan. What do we achieve? one midfielder light, no money in.

Game time. He needs it to remain sharp and we need that if we think about using him next season, provided he does good on loan and comes back

 

[RedSky]

I do not think we can afford to loan players like Fred out. If no one wants to buy him for £30m plus then he stays and plays as a squad option. He will get games.

I see 0 value in sending him on loan. What do we achieve? one midfielder light, no money in.

Agreed. I mean we could sell Fred and throw that for Sancho as an example. Or put it towards a new LB/CB. Reinvest in areas of the pitch we're weak.

 

[romufc]

Game time. He needs it to remain sharp and we need that if we think about using him next season, provided he does good on loan and comes back

If we are not using him this season, why would we use him the coming season? He isnt young anymore that he needs experience.

 

[red4ever 79]

There are 3 other midfielders who should leave before these 2.

 

[Van Piorsing]

We're safe with both being part of genuinely decent depth in midfield while Donny will hopefully challenge starting ones and push Pogba to play better and more consistently.

Mejbri, Galbraith and Garner will probably need additional year so by that time Fred easily could have one last chance to finally prove something to us.

 

[Mickeza]

I do not think we can afford to loan players like Fred out. If no one wants to buy him for £30m plus then he stays and plays as a squad option. He will get games.

I see 0 value in sending him on loan. What do we achieve? one midfielder light, no money in.

The Roma story is a loan with an obligation to buy at the end of it which makes more sense. I don’t think we’re selling Fred though.

 

[BluesJr]

The only way we sell Fred is if Thiago comes, which doesn't look that likely.

 

[macmaggy]

There are 3 other midfielders who should leave before these 2.

Lingard, Pereira and Mata?

 

[Schmeichel=God]

Could Fred be adapted to a joint backup LB to Shaw with Williams?

 

[jem]

because his agent said so, does not mean United will do so, although they might.

The only noises are coming from the agent, as per...

True, but Raiola was a large part of why we were so worried about him leaving in the first place.

 

[ICHM]

Lingard & Pereira need to go first then at the end of the season review. Can we also get rid of Jones and Rojo.

 

[lex talionis]

Keep in mind that midfield duty is more physically demanding that front line or back line duty. We saw what happened to Bruno as we ran him into the ground.

If Fred and McTominay can fully embrace the role of being United squad men I see no reason why we'd want to ditch them, at least right now. To embrace the role of being a legitimate contender for the PL trophy we need to use a full squad.

 

[Jeffthered]

How OGS manages this will be an interesting reflection on his ability to manage players. He now has genuine competition in the centre of the park.
VDB, Pogba and Bruno play, in all important games, that is the starting three and that's a given. The others have to sit and wait. Fred will not like that. McTominay may (may) be OK... for a season.

But I'm not sure either will accept this long term. Why should they?

 

[Denis' cuff]

True, but Raiola was a large part of why we were so worried about him leaving in the first place.

but we’re not too worried now, are we?

 

[jem]

but we’re not too worried now, are we?

I’m not worried because Raiola came out with that positive statement. But I’d absolutely hate to lose Pogba.

 

[Denis' cuff]

I’m not worried because Raiola came out with that positive statement. But I’d absolutely hate to lose Pogba.

thats the main thing. As long as an arsehole like the fat man is calling the shots*.

I’m not remotely worried. Not that important.

*(he isn’t)

 

[Red Royal]

I'd keep them both. There was a period when they were both our main midfielders and doing pretty well, stepping in when needed with more quality around them should be fine. I think in particular McTominay could be looked at as a utility player, can play in defence or even as an emergency striker when chasing a game. We hopefully have lots of games next year, so the 2 of them should be kept.

 

[NotQuiteManc]

I would keep both, but in Fred's case, it is fairly obvious after a couple of seasons at least, he tends to not play well if he doesn't start consecutive games. Not sure if he is a good enough to start with recent additions.

 

[noodlehair]

When it comes down to it, we saw last season that Fred and McTominay can play well and consistently if given a run of games.

We know that Matic can be very good for a short run of games unti he remembers he's 90 years old. We've seen that Pogba can be very good for a short run of games until he remembers to forget how to pay attention. We've also seen that both die of exhaustion after an hour of every game. The only two midfielders we know we can get consistency out of are Fred and McTominay, so getting rid of either would be stupid. I mean they both HAD to play in over half our games last season, so the idea we don't need them makes no sense.

Don't really count Fernandes as a midfielder as half the time he's further forwards than Martial, and he's too effective there to start fecking around with his position.

You can make quite a lenghtly list of players who can leave before you get to Fred or McTominay. The problem as it has been for a while is if you get rid of alll our near ineffetive players, you're left with a first team and half a bench of midfielders and goalkeepers, and Mata for the three games a year he looks decent in.

 

[noodlehair]

I would keep both, but in Fred's case, it is fairly obvious after a couple of seasons at least, he tends to not play well if he doesn't start consecutive games. Not sure if he is a good enough to start with recent additions.

He was good enough to start most of last season and we haven't siigned a central midfielder since. Van Der Beek is very much an attacking player and I think has been signed partly so Fernandes and our forwards don't have to play 90 minutes of every single game.

Personallly think Fred is significantly better than Matic when it comes to playing consistently. Same with McTominay. I still think both are more consistent than Pogba as well but Pogba even after he drops into casual mode definitely creates a lot more.

 

[Litch]

He was good enough to start most of last season and we haven't siigned a central midfielder since. Van Der Beek is very much an attacking player and I think has been signed partly so Fernandes and our forwards don't have to play 90 minutes of every single game.

Personallly think Fred is significantly better than Matic when it comes to playing consistently. Same with McTominay. I still think both are more consistent than Pogba as well but Pogba even after he drops into casual mode definitely creates a lot more.

Agree. Fred divides opinions but I think this is because so find it hard to view him differently from when he started here. Might be me and I'm more than happy to be corrected but he had more MOTM performances last season than any other Utd player with the expectation of Bruno maybe. Also big games against the top sides and arguably our best midfielder in the semi. People seem to think our season started with Pogs return and whilst I love Pogs, the midfield looked better balanced with Fred, Matic and Bruno.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I like Fred and McTominay. But if we dont need them we should sell. We do this all the time. Hold on to players too long, give them a huge contract and then cant get rid of them. Fred has been one of the players of the season. But I agree the lack of goals and assists is a huge problem for a box to box player. If we could get anywhere near 40 mill lets sell. He would be a very good buy for some teams.

 

[acnumber9]

We obviously can’t afford to get rid of either of them currently but if we could upgrade our options then Fred should go. It’s all well and good saying they were good enough for half a season but they were good enough for half a season where United played terribly. We only started keeping clean sheets when Matic started playing more regularly.

 

[Jericho]

With the addition of Van de Beek it's arguable we don't need all of Matic, Fred and McTominay. But I would disagree. We always have an injury crisis every year. We need decent cover in midfield to protect us against that, and just in general we need the ability to rotate as and when it's needed.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

With the addition of Van de Beek it's arguable we don't need all of Matic, Fred and McTominay. But I would disagree. We always have an injury crisis every year. We need decent cover in midfield to protect us against that, and just in general we need the ability to rotate as and when it's needed.

Totally agree. It also gives us options to play with a diamond if needed and also move one midfielder back in a 5 man defense.

 

[Litch]

We obviously can’t afford to get rid of either of them currently but if we could upgrade our options then Fred should go. It’s all well and good saying they were good enough for half a season but they were good enough for half a season where United played terribly. We only started keeping clean sheets when Matic started playing more regularly.

Matic was on his way out the club as he was terrible before returning. We beat all the top teams including city twice with Scott and Fred playing a big part, Chelsea and almost Liverpool too. If they were good enough against the top teams says something about them. Our problem was beating the lesser teams with the low block which changed once we signed Bruno. We weren't great but let's not forget, there was no Bruno, Martial, Rashford or Martial not to mention Pogs for long parts of the season....that's like Liverpool not having their front 3....

 

[acnumber9]

Matic was on his way out the club as he was terrible before returning. We beat all the top teams including city twice with Scott and Fred playing a big part, Chelsea and almost Liverpool too. If they were good enough against the top teams says something about them. Our problem was beating the lesser teams with the low block which changed once we signed Bruno. We weren't great but let's not forget, there was no Bruno, Martial, Rashford or Martial not to mention Pogs for long parts of the season....that's like Liverpool not having their front 3....

We beat City once with those two starting in midfield. The other two times we beat them was with Matic and we conceded no goals in either of those games or the half he played against them at Old Trafford which Fred started and we were getting battered 3-0.

They were fine in a couple of games we didn’t expect to have a lot of the ball and had a very specific task. It’s good enough for where we were before Christmas but it’s not good enough for a title challenge.

 

[He'sRaldo]

With players like Scott and Bruno, it takes a lot of bad performances before they are viewed as inconsistent, while players like Fred, Pogba, or Martial just need a few.

I think the reality is that Fred is no more inconsistent than Scott and is also better than him, so if anyone should be standing in for us it should be Fred. However people's perception makes it such that they are on equal footing.

With that said, we're still not good enough to be getting rid of either without replacements, especially if both are content to stay and play backup roles. Yes we need them both until we have a very good and as well as backups that are better than them. Either that or a better fitness department.

 

[Litch]

We beat City once with those two starting in midfield. The other two times we beat them was with Matic and we conceded no goals in either of those games or the half he played against them at Old Trafford which Fred started and we were getting battered 3-0.

They were fine in a couple of games we didn’t expect to have a lot of the ball and had a very specific task. It’s good enough for where we were before Christmas but it’s not good enough for a title challenge.

Matic is not the reason why we didn't concede the goals or the half. No more the reason why we're battered 3-0. No one knows if they are good enough for a title challenge anymore than most would not change Liverpools midfield for ours but still say we aren't good enough. Fred was the best midfielder this year behind Bruno and sadly most have an agenda against him cause they can't move on from his poor first season in the most toxic Utd team I can remember. The last game we played, for 60mins he was our best player.......

 

[acnumber9]

Matic is not the reason why we didn't concede the goals or the half. No more the reason why we're battered 3-0. No one knows if they are good enough for a title challenge anymore than most would not change Liverpools midfield for ours but still say we aren't good enough. Fred was the best midfielder this year behind Bruno and sadly most have an agenda against him cause they can't move on from his poor first season in the most toxic Utd team I can remember. The last game we played, for 60mins he was our best player.......

It’s a simple fact that City didn’t score a goal against us last season when Matic was on the pitch and we produced a much better performance when came on in that game. The reason for that being he’s a better midfielder than the other two. McTominay didn’t play a big part in us beating City 3 times because he only started one of them.

The truth is that Fred has been built up to more than he is because he improved from a truly abysmal level the season before. Him being the best player for 60 minutes (matter of opinion that one) means nothing. Nor does harping on about one win against Man City as if that’s evidence. Norwich beat Man City last season too. Every game people use as evidence that Fred was great last season is in games where we got dominated in the area of the pitch that Fred plays in.

 

[Litch]

It’s a simple fact that City didn’t score a goal against us last season when Matic was on the pitch and we produced a much better performance when came on in that game. The reason for that being he’s a better midfielder than the other two. McTominay didn’t play a big part in us beating City 3 times because he only started one of them.

The truth is that Fred has been built up to more than he is because he improved from a truly abysmal level the season before. Him being the best player for 60 minutes (matter of opinion that one) means nothing. Nor does harping on about one win against Man City as if that’s evidence. Norwich beat Man City last season too. Every game people use as evidence that Fred was great last season is in games where we got dominated in the area of the pitch that Fred plays in.

It's all about opinions I guess, and I guess the ultimate opinion that matters is the managers. Most would argue the semi final in a European cup is pretty important where you would play your best side, Fred played over Matic. Most unless they have an agenda felt he was our best midfielder for 60mins and the game wasn't lost in midfield but not taking our chances. That said, Matic has his value but I don't understand why fans feel it has to be the detriment of Fred or Scott.

 

[acnumber9]

It's all about opinions I guess, and I guess the ultimate opinion that matters is the managers. Most would argue the semi final in a European cup is pretty important where you would play your best side, Fred played over Matic. Most unless they have an agenda felt he was our best midfielder and the game wasn't lost in midfield but not taking our chances.

Which is grand. The same manager picked Matic every game post lockdown prior to that.

 

[Litch]

Which is grand. The same manager picked Matic every game post lockdown prior to that.

First not every game and def not the semi of a European competition where every other position was his best available player. Like said, Matic has his value but so does Fred. Shame that some fans still have an agenda and make sweeping statements that factually are not true....

 

[noodlehair]

Agree. Fred divides opinions but I think this is because so find it hard to view him differently from when he started here. Might be me and I'm more than happy to be corrected but he had more MOTM performances last season than any other Utd player with the expectation of Bruno maybe. Also big games against the top sides and arguably our best midfielder in the semi. People seem to think our season started with Pogs return and whilst I love Pogs, the midfield looked better balanced with Fred, Matic and Bruno.

The thing is even when Pogba came back he did his usual thing of being very good for 4-5 games and then drifting slowly back into playing whatever sport he's invented in his own head rather than the football match that was going on around him. I still think the only position that really suits Pogba is the one Bruno plays in, and even in the small amount of games after lockdown we became a bit too obsessed with the idea of them both needing to be on the pitch together, even when we were no longer getting anything near the best out of either.

I found the VDB signing a little strange as it suggests Ole sees Pogba as a more holding player. I''d have put Mctominay, Fred and Matic down for that role and had Pogba to either play alongside one against teams that sit off, or to ease the load on Fernandes in other games. I presume VDB has been brought in to do the later which lleaves Pogba playing further back. VDB is a good player but it confuses me as to what the plan is. That said it is still a big improvement on having to play Lingard or Pereira and hope they do something other than foul people.

Fred's had some really good games this season. Away at Liverpool and City, in the Europa League semi. He was good consistently as well once he was playing regularly. Whenever he is in and out of the team he doesn't look like nearly the same player to me. He loses his rhythm. McTominay as well took a month or so to get going last season but was very good once he did. Since he's been in and out he doesn't look nearly as effective either. Matic meanwhile definitely can't cope with two games a week. He also struggles with the pace when he's even slightly off form. So if we did get rid of one of the two we'd need to sign someone, which just seems completely pointless when in other areas of the pitch for example we are one injury away from Phil Jones coming on and getting injured and having to go off again, or another dose of the Eric Bailly fullback experiment.

 

[Litch]

The thing is even when Pogba came back he did his usual thing of being very good for 4-5 games and then drifting slowly back into playing whatever sport he's invented in his own head rather than the football match that was going on around him. I still think the only position that really suits Pogba is the one Bruno plays in, and even in the small amount of games after lockdown we became a bit too obsessed with the idea of them both needing to be on the pitch together, even when we were no longer getting anything near the best out of either.

I found the VDB signing a little strange as it suggests Ole sees Pogba as a more holding player. I''d have put Mctominay, Fred and Matic down for that role and had Pogba to either play alongside one against teams that sit off, or to ease the load on Fernandes in other games. I presume VDB has been brought in to do the later which lleaves Pogba playing further back. VDB is a good player but it confuses me as to what the plan is. That said it is still a big improvement on having to play Lingard or Pereira and hope they do something other than foul people.

Fred's had some really good games this season. Away at Liverpool and City, in the Europa League semi. He was good consistently as well once he was playing regularly. Whenever he is in and out of the team he doesn't look like nearly the same player to me. He loses his rhythm. McTominay as well took a month or so to get going last season but was very good once he did. Since he's been in and out he doesn't look nearly as effective either. Matic meanwhile definitely can't cope with two games a week. He also struggles with the pace when he's even slightly off form. So if we did get rid of one of the two we'd need to sign someone, which just seems completely pointless when in other areas of the pitch for example we are one injury away from Phil Jones coming on and getting injured and having to go off again, or another dose of the Eric Bailly fullback experiment.

That's pretty spot on imo. Fred ok but he's not the guy that finds his rhythm, in fact I think sometimes he can be caught cold at the start of games. That said I think he's very underestimated and often he's has good certainly statically as any CDM. I actually think anyone who plays CDM is going to struggle as they have a lot of work and ground to cover as Pogs and Bruno naturally think more progressively than defensively. Matic is no doubt the only true CDM but he's not the most mobile or as athletic to play that position when he are up against it.

VDB is a strange signing as I'm not convinced you sign him without offering him the opportunity to not play a number of games but to play big games with the best players, not as cover for them. I suspect he'll try to shoehorn all 3 into the midfield somehow, playing Pogs in the Pirlo role. I hope I'm wrong!!!