Was being sarcastic!
Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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but dont you know? it's only unfair when messi wins it
i think there´s no way you can denny that ronaldo was the better player the season Bayern won the CL, as messi was undoubtedly the best player when Inter won the trebble
sorry
use the "sarcastic" font, which i dont know which is, so i would probably had posted the same
sorry again
No problem no need to apologise, good insight on Maradonna too, good to get the view on him from an Argentine rather than BBC pundits who only talk about 1986 and his goal against England.sorry
use the "sarcastic" font, which i dont know which is, so i would probably had posted the same
sorry again
thank you mate
Sneijder wasn't the best player in that Inter side. That's a myth that started when he was hyped up to become the Ballon d'Or winner after the World Cup. Milito was and rightfully won UEFA club footballer of the year and also best player of the year in Italy.
i agree about militto, but if i had said that, i would be called a biased argie
Would the Messi of 4 years ago won Argentina this World Cup under the current set up do people feel because there is no doubt he is playing at a much lower level now ?
Messi is a fraud who probably isn't even in the top 200 players of all time. Only on RedCafe.
I'm sure no one will take into account your nationality when making a point.
At least I hope not.
Quite possibly but it's hard to say. Germany maybe would have set up different against that version of Messi. Anyway I think with the chances the other players had in the final they should have won it even with the Messi of now.
I hope no one said something even remotely like that, if so I'd have to let out a long, deep sigh.
I'd rate Maradona's 1990 and Messi's 2014 on par. Maradona did more to influence the general run of play, while Messi had more direct goal threat. Football was a different beast in 1990 and attacking players were afforded little to no protection. Barely any of the best creative, dribbling playmakers shone amid the rough-house tackling and negative tactics which resulted in the lowest ever average-goals-per-game ratio. At times Maradona was kicked out of the tournament by the sorts of tackles that would result in a straight red today, but would only merit a peep of the ref's whistle then. Despite the treatment he still created plenty with the bulk of his chances squandered by anyone not named Claudio Caniggia. Fundamentally he was past his best by 1990 and struggled badly with injury. Still it was effectively him, Caniggia and Goycochea separating Argentina from a final berth and a knockout in the group stages. While Messi had a decent-to-good tournament, I'm not sure if he'd make a team of Brazil '14 given Rodriguez and Robben both enjoyed a slightly better time. In 1990 I cannot think of any no10 or second striker who matched or shone more than Maradona, and he'd probably have made a team of the tournament alongside Scillachi, with Matthaus, Gazza, Michel/Donadoni in midfield.
It's pretty funny when you look at it, how two of the most pivotal achievements in Maradona's international career (WC '86 and '90) were both dependent on him getting away with intentional handballs. Then taking into account the events in the first half of the Belgium game it's fair to say that Argentina had a decent amount of luck in '86.
His goalscoring has improved, he's progressed like Ronaldo, taken a good part of the flair out of his game to become a goalscoring machine. His all round game has dropped only marginally though, but he still delivers the goods. I think if he'd been the more undisciplined Messi at this World Cup then maybe he could have made a difference in the final. Can't discredit Germany though, set themselves up extremely well and kept him out.
Not sure. He was incredible 4 years ago but Messi of 2 years ago definitely would have. No doubt his performances lately have been well below par yet he still got them to the final which says something.
You've to remember that the Ballon d'Or is given to the player who performed best in that particular calendar year. Sneijder's second half of 2010 was absolute shite under Benitez, and so were the rest of the team. With that in mind, I think it's completely fair that Messi won it, because he continued to show his brilliance week in and week out.
I didn't take that into account.
I see. For the season alone, I agree that Sneijder should've won it, but that's not how the Ballon d'Or works.
At that time the award was given more for what the player did in the previous season rather than the year. It wasn't until 2013 that it was given for a calendar year. It is a pretty silly award in my opinion as there is no real defined criteria. It should be awarded in august and not January. I agree that messi deserved it in 2010 though. He won the title with barca, was top scorer in the league and the cl and scored 47 goals and at the time that wasn't seen as the norm. Now it is the least expected of him and Ronaldo.
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He should have been sent off in the first leg of the UEFA cup final for a handball as well, when he denied Stuttgart a clear goal by playing goalkeeper. If I remember correctly, Stuttgart were already 1-0 up at that moment away at Napoli and there's no way Napoli could have turned the final around with him sent off.
I cant say whether he would have won them the tournament but he would have definitely been the top scorer and would have won the player of the tournament if he did (and it would have been fully deserved and not controversial like this one. Even blatter said he was surprised to see messi win it). Argentina as a whole would have been much more convincing if it were the messi of four years ago.
I agree with your sentiment, although I'd add that you could point to at least one instance where Maradona genuinely let his side down (the missed pen v Yugoslavia when Messi put his away as 1st in line against Holland) in a way that isn't really true for Messi (unless you'd consider the chance he had v Germany in the final as a must-score, of course). And also another instance that could and should have been disastrous, but actually turned out in their favour (the goal line clearance with his hand against the USSR).
I know, hence why I noted only his "international career". It seems to be a recurring motive for him
The instance you describe can hardly be found a mention of nowadays, it's not even shown in most highlights of that final that I've seen (would need to look through the full 1st leg again to confirm at what minute this took place). But what is in the highlights however is another handball of his in that game, which in fact won his team the penalty that initiated the comeback. You couldn't make it up, the irony of that scene. Maradona controls the ball with his chest and very clearly mostly his arm and then hits it at the defender's arm, standing two feet away, and is awarded a penalty
Just watch from 1:00 on, especially the slowmotion shows it perfectly.
It's quite crazy that without these 3-4 blatant instances of intentional handballs Maradona's career could potentially be lighter a World Cup, a World Cup Final and a UEFA Cup.
I agree with you on the most part. They really should define some criteria so they can avoid confusion about the award. What you achieved in the previous season had a lot to say in the matter. Though I remember reading around that time that the merged award has always been given for a calendar year - just because 2013 was the year where they actually took that into account, doesn't mean that it hasn't always been FIFA's intention.
I thought Messi had a good world cup overall. He was playing a lot deeper for Argentina and created the most number of chances. He could have done a lot better if they had someone like Riquelme or Aimar in midfield.
This is the opinion I'd value the most on this topic on this forum given the amount you would have seen of both players, and it's no surprise to me that even you consider messi to be the best footballer you've seen.
Or if Aguero and Di Maria had actually shown up without the dodgy performances and injuries. Disappointing by his freakishly high standards, but better than most others. It was more frustrating than anything just his static movement. End of the day, even playing in first gear/lacking fitness, he still did enough to help the Argies reach the final.
Also, further to what marcosdeto said, Argentina were a super power in world football between 1977 and 1994. Maradona was superb in 1986, deserves every bit of praise ignoring the cheating, but IMO his tournaments in 1982, 1990 and 1994 weren't better than Messi's in 2014 or even 2010. In fact, Messi in 2010 was ridiculously good, just thwarted by keepers and a horrendous defensive display against Germany, Otamendi was awful.
To me there's a significant difference between Messi and Maradona both in terms of roles (within the team) and styles (the way they, to put it simply, play the game). On that level it becomes a question of taste as much as anything more or less objective and/or quantifiable.
On a similar note the roles and styles of Messi and C. Ronaldo are significantly different as well.
None of them are anything compared to Phil Jones anyway, so I frankly don't get what all the feckin' fuss is about.
On a similar note the roles and styles of Messi and C. Ronaldo are significantly different as well.
None of them are anything compared to Phil Jones anyway, so I frankly don't get what all the feckin' fuss is about.
Our greatest ever player.
People like to mention these days that modern footballers' performances are criticised and downplayed purely because of over-exposure and constant scrutinisation. That's true but what is never mentioned is that the brilliance of older players can easily be forgotten as the years go by. For me Marcos' views on Maradona in 1990 are an example of that.
If that performance amounts to "nothing" in Marcos' mind then his mind is playing tricks on him. For me it was clearly a better performance than Messi's and I think Messi played decently. It's easy to forget the good performances in a lost final a few years down the line. And if you listen to the commentator he couldn't stop waxing lyrical about the "complete" Maradona.
Part of that is down to his incredible assist in the previous round but the other part is MOTM performance outside of the goal, influencing the game more than Messi did in any knockout game in the World Cup. The brilliance of that assist only serves to diminish the rest of his performance in Marcos' mind because matches do become like highlight reels as the memory becomes more distant. Maradona's assist and Goycoechea's penalty saves dominate any and all memories of Argentina's knockout round performances but Maradona was the playmaker, the leader and the best player in almost every game despite playing on one leg and being kicked, pulled and elbowed to pieces. It's worth pointing out that this Argentina side was definitely worse than what Messi played with.
Moving away from the Maradona comparison you can definitely compare Messi in 2014 to Ronaldo in 1998 and Baggio in 1994, the decisive player in the losing finalists' who won the Golden Ball. Baggio scored all 5 of his goals in the knockout round and every single goal was decisive. Ronaldo scored 4 goals and finished joint 3rd top scorer like Messi, his only really decisive goal in the knockouts was against Holland and he failed to turn up in the final. Ronaldo's rightly praised for his performances then and in a decade's time Messi's performances here will too. He wasn't as good as expected or hoped for so it's a disappointment at the time but when you look back you'll remember that Messi was their only hope up until the quarter-finals, he scored some great World Cup goals, played the pass of the tournament and was on the whole very good. You can't blame people for wishing he played like Baggio or Cruyff because he has the talent to. I don't think it'll be looked back upon as one of the great World Cup performances and given Messi's talent it's perfectly reasonable to be disappointed because of that. I would have loved to have said I saw Messi lord over the opposition in the way Cruyff did in 1974:
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Good post. Totally agree.
For one, it is pretty clear that Maradona saw a lot more of the ball against that Germany than Messi did because they did not dominate possession like the current one. Secondly, he seems to lose the ball far more than Messi does when he has possession.
sorry but, i don't see nothing special from maradona in that vid that lets you state that he played better than messi against the germans
plus, maradona was playing on a different role and whenever he got the ball there was always an argentinian player waiting for him to pass it, something messi almost never had during this entire world cup
another thing is that maradona was marked one on one, while messi was marked three on one
He has noticeably deteriorated physically in the last year, it certainly was clear this world cup. If you genuinely can't see that (as opposed to not seeing it just to suit your point), then I think you obviously aren't speaking with a lot of background knowledge about the game and about Messi. If you had the knowledge , you'd know that just because you're the best player in the world or best ever, it wouldn't mean you could walk into any side and make them champions. Despite whatever tales that float about about Maradona, he wasn't capable of that either. Real life football isn't a video game.
Another interesting question is this: how would Argentina '94 have fared, with an Indian summer style Maradona at the helm, if he hadn't been booted out by those blue nose FIFA bastards?
You only need one man to two foot challenge your kneecaps 15 times a match. Three men is overkill. Sometimes literally.
when you have messi's and maradona's hability, whith a move of your hip you can lose your defender, thats what the adversaries feared most and that's why they put triple mark on messi
of course, if they foul you out of your game -as italy and brazil did to maradona in 1982- with the concent of the ref, there´s no way you can develope your game, but that´s a diferent matter
mate, in the 1990 final vid, you can see maradona making a back pass over his head without watching who was going to get it, and an argentinian player was waiting for it
messi tried a lot of times but there was almost never an argentinian player free or trying to run free for a pass
about his decline, i read some comments on a spanish footbal forum from barcelona fans claiming that messi has asperger syndrome -a kind of autism- and he also is going through a depression whichm the fact that he is being prosecuted for tax evation, the whole world looking at him and waiting for him to perform alwasy at the same level, has taken it´s toll