Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Ronaldo is 2 years older but a superior athlete. Those two will compete for another 3-4 years for Ballon d'Or. Neymar may get in the mix though.
Correlation doesn't imply causation.
This year's Ballon D'Or will go to Cristiano but next year's will be interesting. It's now the journalists vote and in a World Cup year they've never given the Ballon D'Or to a player that didn't win the World Cup. Neither Argentina or Portugal look like World Cup winning teams so I'm guessing it will be the first time in over a decade neither Messi or Cristiano win it.
I know stats don't show the full picture, but Messi controls games as well as assists and scores goals. Ronaldo is just a goal scorer and has been for the last 3/4 years.
Here are the stats at club level which Messi is ahead by far.
Messi has 194 assists and 515 goals in 589 games. Ronaldo has 172 assists and 532 goals in 720 games.
Messi has been involved in 5 more goals in 131 less games. Surely that is all the evidence you need of who is better. By the time they retire Messi will be even further ahead as he is 2 years younger.
Here are the stats at club level which Messi is ahead by far.
Messi has 194 assists and 515 goals in 589 games. Ronaldo has 172 assists and 532 goals in 720 games.
Messi has been involved in 5 more goals in 131 less games. Surely that is all the evidence you need of who is better. By the time they retire Messi will be even further ahead as he is 2 years younger.
There is no guarantee Messi can go one like CR7. Ronaldo is a physical beast.
Btw.. The standard reply to the rest of the post is that Ronaldo played in different teams and moved around, but Messi has been playing in the same team with team built around him and only him since he was a kid. Not that the argument is excellent, but it is a part of the discussion.
Career stats are skewed by the fact Cristiano played a lot more games when he was younger. If you compare it since Cristiano arrived in Madrid it's much closer than that.
I don't buy that argument.
Messi started at 16 i think? They both started young anyway, while Ronaldo took time to develop while Messi never really went through that stage .
Yeah exactly, Messi played at a higher level than Ronaldo at a younger age. That makes it even more of an argument in Messi's favour. Messi has been incredible as soon as he broke through into the top level and has been consistent ever since. Ronaldo took a lot longer than Messi to get to the top level.
Ah the old Ronaldo is just a goal scorer and Messi controls games. Funny how he can't 'control' is star studded Argentina team to a trophy while Ronaldo drove his to a Euro championship. The fact that Messi is a playmaker while Ronaldo isn't should not be skewed as one controls the game while other doesn't.
You can debate who's the better club player all day but Ronaldo destroys Messi on the international level. Settles it for me there.
But Cristiano played 121 games in his first 3 seasons for club only. Messi played 60. That's a huge difference and that gap gets even bigger if you include national team games too.
Even if they scored at the exact same rate in their younger years they still did it at a much lesser scale than they've done for the last 10 years, meaning the one who played more games at a younger age has a big disadvantage. Then since Cristiano went to Madrid he played 397 games to Messi's 428 which makes it even worse for him statistically speaking.
Come on that is a very silly argument. Messi has helped his team get to 4 major finals. Ronaldo has helped Portugal to one. Ronaldo went off injured in the final so Portugal winning the final was nothing to do with him. Messi getting to 4 finals and not winning it is better than Ronaldo getting to the final and not playing a major part.
Ronaldo and Portugal wouldn't have even got to the final if rules didn't get changed for the tournament. The rule change was that the best 3rd placed group team went to the next round. Ronaldo couldn't even help his team to finish in the 2 spots that would have been necessary in every other tournament.
Portugal only won 1 group game and the semi final in normal time. They won on penalties in the quarters. Ronaldo and Portugal were extremely underwhelming and were very lucky they won the tournament. So you saying that he won a tournament and Messi didn't is a very lazy argument to say the least.
Going by that argument, if it not for the heroics of Di Maria and Mascherano, Argentina would have never made finals. The team in knockouts easily shut Messi out. They just somehow managed to defeat Netherlands.
I think it is pretty lazy to be dismissive of whatever Ronaldo/ Portugal does to make a point.
I am not being lazy or dismissive of him, the fact is that they have both been underwhelming in tournaments for their countries. But Messi getting to 4 and Ronaldo to one is more in favour of Messi regardless of him having a better squad. However, as they have both not been amazing for their countries compared to at club level, we have to look at them more at their clubs. Stats show that Messi has done more for his club in his career than what Ronaldo has done.
I am not dismissing Ronaldo and his accomplishments because he is a brilliant player. I actually like Ronaldo a lot better then Messi and he is one of my favourite all time United players. But looking at it from an unbiased point of view and without rose tinted specticles it is clear in my eyes that Messi is and has been the better player for most of their careers.
If Messi has helped Argentina to 4 finals then surely Cristiano has helped Portugal to 2? Also, playing the Euros with Portugal is completely different to playing the Copa America with Argentina. In terms of team results I think it's obvious Cristiano has done better than Messi with the national team.
Also, it's nonsensical to claim we wouldn't have gone through our group with different rules when if the rules had been different we wouldn't have played the same way. We were lucky we won the tournament, that's true. But we've had our fair share of bad luck in other tournaments.
No it can't.
I am sorry but that is the nonsensical statement and not what I said. Are you trying to tell me that Portugal played bad on purpose and would have played better if they had to finish 2nd and not 3rd? I am extremely certain that they played their best like every other team in the tournament.
When did ever Messi score 10+ goals in the CL QF onwards, by far the highest level anyone plays at
True, but when is the all-conquering Messi ever going to do anything in WC knockout stage?
Not at all, if one only ever shoots from positions that he's likely to score from to pad his shots to goal ratio
Don't think bringing in their international records or performances should matter in this thread given neither has dominated that scene. So club level is all it's about. As someone says its all about what your preference is. They are vastly different types of players and really don't play anything like each other.
Portugal played more conservatively because of the rules that were imposed before the tournament started, which everyone knew about.
That's very true, not try telling that to the condescending Messi brigade
No, I'm telling you we wouldn't have played as cautiously as we did in the first 2 matches nor we would have spent the last 25 minutes of the Hungary match trying to preserve a draw.
If only the first 2 teams went through their group I guarantee you the matches wouldn't have played out the same way. You're right that we looked poor though.
I do find it odd when some say Ronaldo isn't close to his level and so on and so forth when it's blatantly obvious he is. He's played against his team numerous times and at no point has he looked the vastly inferior player. He's been as decisive against Barca as Messi has been against Madrid. He might not be close to him from a technical standpoint but then again Eusebio wasn't close to Best in that regard and only a madman would think there wasn't a discussion to be had. Both of them can do things the other one can't and both absolutely out of the top drawer.
Exactly, some people refuse to read the rules and moan on and on about them.
But the Messi brigade will tell you dribbling is the be all and end all of top level football
Some of the things you have to do to compare Messi vs Ronaldo
Arbitrary stats are your friend
Nitpicking much? We never heard of this "CL knockout stages" in 10 years, but it starts being important now, why? Because as Cal emphasizes "ONE season?" has marked the difference here.
So, why this spam now? This comes with a trick, when we see posts about "crucial" KO rounds in the CL it takes into account QF, SF and Finals, no R16, and this takes off from last year, why?
Before January 07' (when no one talked about this) their full Knockout stages goals were
Messi: 36 goals
Ronaldo: 44 goals
"Ok, no problem, Ronaldo still wins" we'd say, but the difference before last season was less that 10 goals (with a player two years older)
Why is this argument starting now, well two clear points.
Suddenly, Cristiano Ronaldo (or how the reverse-Cals of the world would call him, Kevin Phillips) has won a 10 goal lead over Messi (in ONE season) in the "crucial" KO stages of CL.
But how could we stretch this 9 KO goal lead Ronaldo got this last season to the stretch of almost doubling it? Well, that's easy.
We can arbitrarily decide that R16 doesn't exist, because no one likes a flat-track bully that puts 21 goals in R16 vs teams like Stuttgart, Arsenal or Leverkusen, this obviously doesn't have anything to do with Ronaldo scoring less in the same round, we also know APOEL or Galatasaray in QF are tougher matchups than Arsenal in R16 so this is totally fair.
So, the TL;DR of every debate were you have to elevate Ronaldo to Messi's height is basically this
"Messi is the better goalscorer because one year he scored 91 goals, Ronaldo never came close" -> That's not right, because you know in a single season even Kevin Phillips outperformed RVN
"Ronaldo is the best goalscorer because he's the player with most goals in KO/crucial™ UCL stages" -> Disregard that the stats more people use are skewed to ignore R16 and this lead was mostly achieved in a single "Kevin Phillips" season.
Why'd you have to start forging stats leaving out R16 goals and pushing a certain narrative just after a player had the most freakish season of his life, while totally disregarding the other freak season his rival had? Because you can't sustain any kind of fair argument around the subject that Ronaldo is objectively superior to Messi, nothing else
Arbitrary stats are your friend
(This is not a personal hit at Cal, this is happening all over the media, Reddit and other forums)
Nitpicking much? We never heard of this "CL knockout stages" in 10 years, but it starts being important now, why? Because as Cal emphasizes "ONE season?" has marked the difference here.
So, why this spam now? This comes with a trick, when we see posts about "crucial" KO rounds in the CL it takes into account QF, SF and Finals, no R16, and this takes off from last year, why?
Before January 07' (when no one talked about this) their full Knockout stages goals were
Messi: 36 goals
Ronaldo: 44 goals
"Ok, no problem, Ronaldo still wins" we'd say, but the difference before last season was less that 10 goals (with a player two years older)
Why is this argument starting now, well two clear points.
This happened in one season
Suddenly, Cristiano Ronaldo (or how the reverse-Cals of the world would call him, Kevin Phillips) has won a 10 goal lead over Messi (in ONE season) in the "crucial" KO stages of CL.
But how could we stretch this 9 KO goal lead Ronaldo got this last season to the stretch of almost doubling it? Well, that's easy.
We can arbitrarily decide that R16 doesn't exist, because no one likes a flat-track bully that puts 21 goals in R16 vs teams like Stuttgart, Arsenal or Leverkusen, this obviously doesn't have anything to do with Ronaldo scoring less in the same round, we also know APOEL or Galatasaray in QF are tougher matchups than Arsenal in R16 so this is totally fair.
So, the TL;DR of every debate were you have to elevate Ronaldo to Messi's height is basically this
"Messi is the better goalscorer because one year he scored 91 goals, Ronaldo never came close" -> That's not right, because you know in a single season even Kevin Phillips outperformed RVN
"Ronaldo is the best goalscorer because he's the player with most goals in KO/crucial™ UCL stages" -> Disregard that the stats more people use are skewed to ignore R16 and this lead was mostly achieved in a single "Kevin Phillips" season.
Why'd you have to start forging stats leaving out R16 goals and pushing a certain narrative just after a player had the most freakish season of his life, while totally disregarding the other freak season his rival had? Because you can't sustain any kind of fair argument around the subject that Ronaldo is objectively superior to Messi, nothing else
Before last seasonSome of the things you have to do to compare Messi vs Ronaldo
Arbitrary stats are your friend
(This is not a personal hit at Cal, this is happening all over the media, Reddit and other forums)
Nitpicking much? We never heard of this "CL knockout stages" in 10 years, but it starts being important now, why? Because as Cal emphasizes "ONE season?" has marked the difference here.
So, why this spam now? This comes with a trick, when we see posts about "crucial" KO rounds in the CL it takes into account QF, SF and Finals, no R16, and this takes off from last year, why?
Before January 07' (when no one talked about this) their full Knockout stages goals were
Messi: 36 goals
Ronaldo: 44 goals
"Ok, no problem, Ronaldo still wins" we'd say, but the difference before last season was less that 10 goals (with a player two years older)
Why is this argument starting now, well two clear points.
This happened in one season
Suddenly, Cristiano Ronaldo (or how the reverse-Cals of the world would call him, Kevin Phillips) has won a 10 goal lead over Messi (in ONE season) in the "crucial" KO stages of CL.
But how could we stretch this 9 KO goal lead Ronaldo got this last season to the stretch of almost doubling it? Well, that's easy.
We can arbitrarily decide that R16 doesn't exist, because no one likes a flat-track bully that puts 21 goals in R16 vs teams like Stuttgart, Arsenal or Leverkusen, this obviously doesn't have anything to do with Ronaldo scoring less in the same round, we also know APOEL or Galatasaray in QF are tougher matchups than Arsenal in R16 so this is totally fair.
So, the TL;DR of every debate were you have to elevate Ronaldo to Messi's height is basically this
"Messi is the better goalscorer because one year he scored 91 goals, Ronaldo never came close" -> That's not right, because you know in a single season even Kevin Phillips outperformed RVN
"Ronaldo is the best goalscorer because he's the player with most goals in KO/crucial™ UCL stages" -> Disregard that the stats more people use are skewed to ignore R16 and this lead was mostly achieved in a single "Kevin Phillips" season.
Why'd you have to start forging stats leaving out R16 goals and pushing a certain narrative just after a player had the most freakish season of his life, while totally disregarding the other freak season his rival had? Because you can't sustain any kind of fair argument around the subject that Ronaldo is objectively superior to Messi, nothing else
Quarters:
Cristiano - 15 goals in 16 matches; Messi - 10 goals in 16 matches
Semis:
Cristiano - 10 goals in 17 matches; Messi - 4 goals in 13 matches
Final:
Cristiano - 2 goals in 4 matches; 2 goals in 3 matches;
Total:
Cristiano - 27 goals in 37 matches (0.73 goals per game); Messi - 16 goals in 32 matches (0.5 goals per game);
It's not one season and they aren't forged stats or propaganda like you claim... they're true.
If you include the round of 16, Cristiano's average goes from 0.88 goals per game to 0.81 while Messi's goes from 0.47 to 0.63 which is still a significant difference.
If you exclude Cristiano's goals against APOEL and Galatasaray and Messi's goals against Shakhtar and on top of that you even exclude last season's goals you'd get:
Quarters:
Cristiano - 10 goals in 12 matches; Messi - 9 goals in 14 matches
Semis:
Cristiano - 10 goals in 17 matches; Messi - 4 goals in 13 matches
Final:
Cristiano - 2 goals in 4 matches;Messi - 2 goals in 3 matches;
Total:
Cristiano - 22 goals in 33 matches (0.67 goals per game); Messi - 15 goals in 30 matches (0.5 goals per game);
How many shots do each have per game? Messi IMO is quite clearly as good as Ronaldo at finishing.
Cristiano obviously shoots more often but most of those shots are in more difficult situations than most of Messi's shots since a lot of them are after crosses or from further away. I think Opta are using the expected goals stat now. Seeing the number of goals at the end of the season vs the number of expected goals would be the best way to see who's the better finisher.
Here's a BBC article on it: http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40699431
You're back to arguing over who's the better goalscorer.
This thread still on? Ronaldo is a great player, Messi GOAT.
Ronaldo' airial prowess sets him apart from Messi imo. He's a more complete finisher where as Messi has more finesse in his finishing I'd say.
Ronaldo has better hair. I got nothing else.
I prefer to watch Messi and always have done but I think Ronaldo fans have the best argument for who's the better player, given that he's won a ballon d'or playing in 2 different countries. Surprised it doesn't get pushed more
Messi would've won Ballon d'Or's in other countries too though. The fact he's never transferred to another club can't be held against him.
It's just an easier agenda to push, and a definitive one.
If I must explain someone who doesn't watch football how good is Messi, I'd show him this goal
He's the only one who can do something like that, against another top, top level team in a Champions League SF, away.
Everytime I watch this goal I can't understand how he does that. He's alone!!! everyone says that Messi is surrounded by the best ones and bla bla bla...there's no one helping him, making distractions. The aerial view is mind blowing.
He's the only one who can do something like that, against another top, top level team in a Champions League SF, away.
Everytime I watch this goal I can't understand how he does that. He's alone!!! everyone says that Messi is surrounded by the best ones and bla bla bla...there's no one helping him, making distractions. The aerial view is mind blowing.
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