Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

Not bad but easier to get the foot under as it had a slight bounce.

In 610 goals Ronaldo hasn't ever chipped the keeper with his right foot has he? Can't think off the top of my head

Scored this one last season but I think it might be his only one. He usually just blasts them in

 

[In Rainbows]

One goes past players with the ball, the other goes past them without the ball. The problem is people will see Cristiano's first as an easy tap in instead of seeing how he got away from the defender marking him.

Those actions aren't equal though. One is dependent on teammates, the other is not. I get what you're saying and movement is definitely a positive in the game and in his favor, but I just wanted to point out that those actions may end up with the same result, but one is more impressive on an individual level due to taking out one huge variable.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Scored this one last season but I think it might be his only one. He usually just blasts them in

i wonder if he could have had even more goals by opting for this approach. messi makes it look easy but a lot of the times its the most likely way to score

 

[Peyroteo]

Those actions aren't equal though. One is dependent on teammates, the other is not. I get what you're saying and movement is definitely a positive in the game and in his favor, but I just wanted to point out that those actions may end up with the same result, but one is more impressive on an individual level due to taking out one huge variable.

That's true but Ronaldo will do it more often since he doesn't need the ball to beat players, he's constantly making the same movements throughout games and getting free from his marker. The difference is the ball doesn't always arrive and when that happens the space he made for himself doesn't matter. I agree with you, it is more reliant on the teammates actually putting the ball there but he has the advantage of not really needing the ball at his feet to gain that space.

i wonder if he could have had even more goals by opting for this approach. messi makes it look easy but a lot of the times its the most likely way to score

I think being taller with bigger legs makes it harder to get under the ball and control the chip. Especially the way Messi usually does it with the keeper right in front of the ball, I'm not sure if that's true or not but that's what it feels like.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

That's true but Ronaldo will do it more often since he doesn't need the ball to beat players, he's constantly making the same movements throughout games and getting free from his marker. The difference is the ball doesn't always arrive and when that happens the space he made for himself doesn't matter. I agree with you, it is more reliant on the teammates actually putting the ball there but he has the advantage of not really needing the ball at his feet to gain that space.



I think being taller with bigger legs makes it harder to get under the ball and control the chip. Especially the way Messi usually does it with the keeper right in front of the ball, I'm not sure if that's true or not but that's what it feels like.

Sorry, had to

 

[Peyroteo]

Sorry, had to

That celebration never fails to make me laugh

 

[Cal?]

You have to steer away from my points, you out of arguments or something?

1) I wasn't talking about South America, we were talking about Ronaldo's impact on Portugal WC qualifying chances
2) And the point to qualify is to get as many points as possible, the difference between qualifying for the 90, 94 or 98 WC or not was 1'5 points on average for Portugal, since Ronaldo is their star, in their last WC qualifiers they went in as 2nd of their group, so if we're going to look at it roughly stat-wise like you did with their trajectory of failing to qualify more than twice for 40 years Portugal with Ronaldo has "conquered" a disadvantage of 1'5 points in average to qualify his team via 2nd round, is not like he took Luxembourg 10 points away from a WC and put them there.
3) I said 70's and 80's (years where they only qualified once), the difference between their 90's teams that failed and the latests ones I already measured in ~1'5 points.

It's rough, and really lazily done because I didn't take a look at the global wins/draws/loses of those teams, just a superficial look at how they performed globally (it doesn't even takes account of the games Ronaldo didn't play with Portugal in those qualifiers), but basically, that could be the magnitude of what Ronaldo brought to Portugal's quailifiers in the context you tried to use it.

And I won't get into high detail and look individually at games or try to go deeper into the full qualifier games of 6 different world cups because even if after two hours of research if I was able to come up with statistical fact of Ronaldo's worth to his NT, if it was lower than what you have decidied you probably wouldn't take it into account. Also it's almost impossible to exactly address it a certain value (like win shares in American sports) when we're comparing groups with "Germany, Ukraine, Armenia, N. Ireland and Albania" vs groups like "Slovakia, Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Liechtenstein and Luxembourg"

My mistake, you list all their failures in the 90s so I thought you wanted to talk about the 90s.

 

[prtk0811]

As good as messi is , he wont be the same without barcelona as we have seen numerous times with argentina.

 

[Cal?]

So if Messi has the stats in his favor?. What exactly is your reasoning that he is better than messi?.

It is possible to prefer Ronaldo style as a player, or think he would perform better in different systems. But to argue that dribbling, finishing and passing are not the most important thing for an attacker is absurd.

Because the point about being the better player is not only the better stats throughout their career, otherwise that Luiz Ronaldo is great thread falls apart completely.

Cristiano Ronaldo has been better at his peak, won as much despite playing with lesser team mates most his career (basically until the last 2 seasons).

Messi is not better at finishing. If you want to go on about their shot to goals ratio, that's because of their styles, trying to dribble until you're closer to the goal before shooting does not make a better finisher. Unless you have their minutes to goals stats to prove otherwise.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

So they've gone from qualifying twice from 1967 to 2005, to qualifying every single time since then.

As for Euros, 2002 he was there and they made the final.

Qualifying for every World Cup in Ronaldo's era is a marked improvement in their overall record for sure, but it's worth pointing out that they've benefited from the expansion of the World Cup. Those second place finishes in the qualifiers in 2010 and 2014 would have seen them eliminated before the tournament expanded in 1982.

2004 Euros? He was there and he lit up that tournament, but Portugal were third favourites with the odds makers before the tournament started, behind only France and Italy, and the 19 year old Ronaldo coming off his first season at Utd wasn't the main reason for them being so highly ranked. They were clearly regarded as one of the best national teams in Europe even before Ronaldo came on the scene, and given how long you've been a member here you surely know that.

 

[Schneckerl]

As good as messi is , he wont be the same without barcelona as we have seen numerous times with argentina.

Ronaldo isn't as good with Portugal as he is with Real Madrid either. That's what happens if in todays lopsided (compared 80s 90s) club competitions with general higher scoring levels.

This isn't an attack on either player, just the nature of today's game.

 

[SteveW]

Ronaldo is a much more complete finisher than Messi. Messi is arguably better inside the box, and his ability to dribble his way to good finishing positions helps him score an outrageous amount of goals, but Ronaldo is an exceptional striker inside the box with both feet and his head and has arguably the best off the ball movement I've ever seen. To top it off, he also has probably the most lethal long range shooting ever.


Most of those goals are the sort of thing other players dream of pulling off once in a lifetime. Ronnie has handfuls of them, some of which aren't even included in the video above. Messi doesn't have the power, shooting technique and accuracy to score those goals.

I think Messi all in all is the greatest of all time, but there's never been a better player than Ronaldo when it comes to simply fecking the ball off into the back of the net from any given situation.

Ronaldo is definitely better at scoring goals that require power and physical dominance. It's an incredible achievement the way he went from a light winger to basically Alan Shearer whenever ball gets thrown into the box. And yes he has an absolute bullet of a shot. Messi has to be a little bit more crafty and refined to get the ball into the net. Wouldn't agree at all that he's less accurate. He manages to score just as many as Ronaldo. But he's not as powerful.

My basis for seeing Messi as a better player is the fact that all Ronaldo's strengths are centred around getting the ball in the net. Power, movement, heading, shooting etc. His contribution is based on goals. Yet he doesn't surpass Messi when it comes to scoring and assisting. Messi at least matches him.

Messi on the other hand is probably the best passer in the world. He can absolutely run a game. He's much more of a creative focus in the build up. Often giving the pass that starts a move or isolates a defender. There's nothing to say he won't comfortably drop back and be the best midfielder around when his pace inevitably leaves him. That makes him a more complete player and a better one.

 

[Schneckerl]

2004 Euros? He was there and he lit up that tournament, but Portugal were third favourites with the odds makers before the tournament started, behind only France and Italy, and the 19 year old Ronaldo coming off his first season at Utd wasn't the main reason for them being so highly ranked. They were clearly regarded as one of the best national teams in Europe even before Ronaldo came on the scene, and given how long you've been a member here you surely know that.

Portugal is rarely the underdog at the Euro if you look at individual games.
http://www.betexplorer.com/soccer/europe/

 

[Cal?]

Qualifying for every World Cup in Ronaldo's era is a marked improvement in their overall record for sure, but it's worth pointing out that they've benefited from the expansion of the World Cup. Those second place finishes in the qualifiers in 2010 and 2014 would have seen them eliminated before the tournament expanded in 1982.

2004 Euros? He was there and he lit up that tournament, but Portugal were third favourites with the odds makers before the tournament started, behind only France and Italy, and the 19 year old Ronaldo coming off his first season at Utd wasn't the main reason for them being so highly ranked. They were clearly regarded as one of the best national teams in Europe even before Ronaldo came on the scene, and given how long you've been a member here you surely know that.

Again, you can only play by the rules, it's like people complaining about how Portugal make the knockouts in the last Euro. But the fact is that they did enough to qualify ever since Ronaldo burst onto the scene. The WC was already expanded significantly in the 90s and a team with Figo & Rui Costa and co in their mid 20s failed to make France 98.

As for Euro 2004, the fact they were anywhere near favourites for the tournament has everything to do with their home advantage, it was mainly the same players who failed to make that knockout stage in Japorea + Ronaldo.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Messi - Greatest Player of all Time.
Ronaldo - Greatsst Goalscorer of all Time.

 

[Stocar]

Ability to consistently score goals doing solo runs isn't just important in itself. Player who has that sort of ability on the ball is also potentially (if he has the vision and instinct) an elite playmaker. That's a whole new dimension of play, and only one player in modern football has been an elite goalscorer and elite playmaker. It's not really hard to see if you have at least basic grasp on football. Counting stats and trophies (especially in cup competitions) is such an inane and pointless way of looking at the game when it comes to estimating individual players ability and contribution.

 

[Cal?]

Ability to consistently score goals doing solo runs isn't just important in itself. Player who has that sort of ability on the ball is also potentially (if he has the vision and instinct) an elite playmaker. That's a whole new dimension of play, and only one player in modern football has been an elite goalscorer and elite playmaker. It's not really hard to see if you have at least basic grasp on football. Counting stats and trophies (especially in cup competitions) is such an inane and pointless way of looking at the game when it comes to estimating individual players ability and contribution.

Messi fans and their condescending comments.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Again, you can only play by the rules, it's like people complaining about how Portugal make the knockouts in the last Euro. But the fact is that they did enough to qualify ever since Ronaldo burst onto the scene. The WC was already expanded significantly in the 90s and a team with Figo & Rui Costa and co in their mid 20s failed to make France 98.

As for Euro 2004, the fact they were anywhere near favourites for the tournament has everything to do with their home advantage, it was mainly the same players who failed to make that knockout stage in Japorea + Ronaldo.

And by extension the same players who had made the semi finals of the previous Euros, taking the WC holders and eventual tournament winners to extra time in a highly competitive match. Then qualified for WC 2002 as group winners (something they've only done once with Ronaldo), from a tough group that saw Holland get eliminated. They got eliminated in the group stages but then so did Ronaldo's 2014 team.

 

[Cal?]

And by extension the same players who had made the semi finals of the previous Euros, taking the WC holders and eventual tournament winners to extra time in a highly competitive match. Then qualified for WC 2002 as group winners (something they've only done once with Ronaldo), from a tough group that saw Holland get eliminated. They got eliminated in the group stages but then so did Ronaldo's 2014 team.

Indeed, I haven't pretended that Ronaldo has excelled in WC after 2006. But if you're going to dress up losing to France so much, didn't Portugal lose to Spain, the eventual champions due to an offside goal in 2010?

Basically there's been a clear improvement with Portugal'S fortunes since Ronaldo. The same cannot be said of Argentina and Messi.

 

[Ish]

Open a damn poll and be done with it.

 

[adexkola]

Open a damn poll and be done with it.

We've been here since the Cal and FranklyVulgar days. You know damn well that a poll won't be the end of it.

 

[Bole Top]

yeah, no poll in a thread like this is weird. we had them when we were debating stuff like Iniesta vs Zidane, Totti vs Del Piero, Rooney vs Nani etc. it's surprising that there isn't one here.

 

[Ish]

We've been here since the Cal and FranklyVulgar days. You know damn well that a poll won't be the end of it.

Just make it sssshhhtap adex! Make it go away! Kill it with fire.

 

[Sarni]

Have you not consistently changed your justification of why Ronaldo is better based on the past season or two for the past 7 years, just to keep Ronaldo ahead of Messi? It's fine to think Ronaldo is better if you want, but at least have a consistent reasoning.

He has. When Messi scores more, goals don't count. When Ronaldo scores more, it's all about goals. When Messi wins trophies, they don't count and he had better team. When Ronaldo wins trophies, it's all because of him and he's amazing.

He's the single biggest fanboy of any person, club or thing that I've ever seen. He's a bigger fanboy of Ronaldo than Weaste was of PlayStation or Twigginater is of Premier League (imagine).

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Indeed

WHO REPLIED IN THIS THREAD?

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   Cal?
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47. 23
    Lay
48. 23
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49. 23
    Skorenzy

You bored and got nowt to do?

 

[KirkDuyt]

He has. When Messi scores more, goals don't count. When Ronaldo scores more, it's all about goals. When Messi wins trophies, they don't count and he had better team. When Ronaldo wins trophies, it's all because of him and he's amazing.

He's the single biggest fanboy of any person, club or thing that I've ever seen. He's a bigger fanboy of Ronaldo than Weaste was of PlayStation or Twigginater is of Premier League (imagine).

To be fair, he is the most succesful wum in the history of the universe.

 

[Sarni]

To be fair, he is the most succesful wum in the history of the universe.

He is not a WUM though. He genuinely feels that way. Ronaldo for him is way above any other footballer that ever existed while Messi is just a slightly better Lavezzi. He has also been on that forever, even back when Ronaldo was a young player he maintained that if he took Portugal to Euro 2008 knockout round he'd be considered at the same level as Zidane and Maradona. That was Ronaldo who did not even have any of the Real Madrid record he has broken since.

 

[Ecstatic]

You bored and got nowt to do?

What do you mean?

 

[KirkDuyt]

He is not a WUM though. He genuinely feels that way. Ronaldo for him is way above any other footballer that ever existed while Messi is just a slightly better Lavezzi. He has also been on that forever, even back when Ronaldo was a young player he maintained that if he took Portugal to Euro 2008 knockout round he'd be considered at the same level as Zidane and Maradona. That was Ronaldo who did not even have any of the Real Madrid record he has broken since.

Guess I just haven't been around long enough It's án entertaining read though, this thread.

 

[Bole Top]

You bored and got nowt to do?

he didn't count the posts if that's what you think. you can just click on 'who replied' option

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Damien

Go on pal, shove a poll in this thread

 

[2mufc0]

You bored and got nowt to do?

Click on 'thread tools' and 'who replied'.

 

[TheRedScot]

Because the point about being the better player is not only the better stats throughout their career, otherwise that Luiz Ronaldo is great thread falls apart completely.

Cristiano Ronaldo has been better at his peak, won as much despite playing with lesser team mates most his career (basically until the last 2 seasons).

Messi is not better at finishing. If you want to go on about their shot to goals ratio, that's because of their styles, trying to dribble until you're closer to the goal before shooting does not make a better finisher. Unless you have their minutes to goals stats to prove otherwise.

When Was this?. As from 2009/2010 till 2013/14 pretty much the whole footballing world believed Messi to be in a complete league of his own. Being mentioned alongside Pele and Maradona as the greatest ever. There was no mention of ronaldo then.

Comparing which player is more clinical can only be done by measuring attempts made vs attempts scored. I like the way you try and bend the Rule to suit your agenda. Even though i am not actually sure Ronaldo has scored more goals from outside the box than messi, will have to look it up.

 

[ManuMou]

Open a damn poll and be done with it.

This.

Poll please. Simple as that.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

This.

Poll please. Simple as that.

@Raoul

Maybe under the question "who will go down in history as the better player" or "who has been the best player in the past 10 years"

 

[charlton66]

I think what this boils down to is what type of football appeals to you. If you appreciate flair and creativity you will lean towards Messi, if you favor athleticism and power Ronaldo will be the choice. Personally, I think the pair of them are in the top 5 players of all time and I'm just glad I was around to see them both.

 

[Moonred]

It's a great rivalry to be fair. Much closer than what I thought it would be few years back. Credit to Ronaldo for that and I am perfectly ok with some people liking his style of play more if they are being honest.

In the end both have made my jaw drop numerous times. Prefer Messi and I haven't seen anyone who made me standup and applaud as many times as him repeatedly playing for a team that I pretty much dislike.

 

[Hala Madrid]

Ronaldo and messi are the greatest, but Ronaldo is slightly better; that's what makes him the GOAT, the facts,stats and all are there to prove it; the only thing people that disagree do is to be salty and have outright hatred for him

 

[KirkDuyt]

Ronaldo and messi are the greatest, but Ronaldo is slightly better; that's what makes him the GOAT, the facts,stats and all are there to prove it; the only thing people that disagree do is to be salty and have outright hatred for him

You're right! I even have custom made Ronaldo toilet paper so I can wipe my bum with his likeness.

 

[gingerless]

Ronaldo and messi are the greatest, but Ronaldo is slightly better; that's what makes him the GOAT, the facts,stats and all are there to prove it; the only thing people that disagree do is to be salty and have outright hatred for him

This thread.... I don't know if I should laugh or cry or both at the same time. The username, the comment...