Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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redcafe_reader

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It’s true, one of them even had a meltdown over Trump and defended him and Ronaldo at the same time in this thread.

They don’t realize it, but by saying ”Messi is the best but Ronaldo is the greatest” they’ve admitted defeat already. How can you be the best and not win this thread?

The only way that would be remotely possible would be if we were talking about some flash in the pan who only had 2-3 good years. But Messi has consistently been at his best or close to it for over a decade now. And a very respectable trophy haul to go with it.
Let me guess, he's not the one who bring Trump into the discussion, right? I find it funny, people bring Trump into an irrelevant discussion and then somehow it's other people's meltdown for defending him? How does that work?

Also guess who just bring Trump back into this discussion? Not a Ronaldo fan I am sure :)

"But Messi has consistently been at his best or close to it for over a decade now. And a very respectable trophy haul to go with it." - And Ronaldo didn't have that? His trophy haul is superb, not with 1 club but 2 clubs and his national team too?

The thing is that most of us who are Ronaldo fans think that he’s #1 but we are happy to admit that it’s not a 100% slam dunk. The Messi fans (not all) however, seem to refuse to even entertain the thought that their lad is not the greatest ever - it’s just that arrogance that irks me. They are almost offended at the very idea that it’s open for debate.
Well said. Messi is better for me but I understand if some one think Ronaldo is equal or better. It's narrow mind to think it's not even debatable.
 

Zehner

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The thing is that most of us who are Ronaldo fans think that he’s #1 but we are happy to admit that it’s not a 100% slam dunk. The Messi fans (not all) however, seem to refuse to even entertain the thought that their lad is not the greatest ever - it’s just that arrogance that irks me. They are almost offended at the very idea that it’s open for debate.
Maybe that should have you thinking ;)

For me personally, it is not a debate since I think the difference in ability has always been significant and has only grown in recent years, because despite his CL wins Cristiano has regressed individually. I've got no problem if one prefers him, though, as long as he's consistent with his criteria. But so far I've encountered noone in this thread that prefers Cristiano and didn't use double standards to argue his point.
 

Aloysius's Back 3

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It’s ridiculous to claim CL knockout games are bigger games than dead league games against the likes of Betis or Huesca? :lol:
Exactly. I absolutely find it funny the teams Messi plays against. As I said it's games vs Betis, Huesca or Getafe and the goals he scores against much lower than him and Barcelona for the whole of his career I find that over rates him.

Ronaldo does it against the whole of the English League. He does it against the whole of Spanish League. He does it against the whole of the Italian League. He does it against the Champions league. He does it against the European International Tournament.

The thing is - none of the fans who think Ronaldo is better than Messi would ever say that the Messi would completely fail in England, Italy or the International tournaments - however I have no idea how the Messi fans can be sure that the guy will perform to the exact same high standards he shows at Barcelona whilst playing for a completely different team in a different place and scenario. He would still be the best or second best player in the world no doubt - but I can't see how anyone can be sure that he would pulling the same numbers playing for a worse team than Barcelona whilst playing in different Leagues, different environments and some would argue better teams or a league.

The only place he does that is at Argentina and he plays to 9/8.5 out of 10 but no where near the 10/10 performances he consistently pulls out off his back side when playing for Barcelona where he turns up when they need him. The quality he shows is not exactly the same as Barcelona performances either, even if that's only 10% true - it makes a difference to me.
 
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Saffron

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How can you be the greatest and not win this thread? :lol:
He’s not the greatest so he doesn’t win this thread :lol:

It’s just an illogical argument and double standard. If I thought Ronaldo genuinely was a better player than Messi, I wouldn’t contort myself silly trying to argue Messi was somehow ”greater” based on some highly arbitrary factors. But that’s exactly what several Ronaldo posters are doing in this thread.
 

MalcolmTucker

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Exactly. I absolutely find it funny the teams Messi plays against. As I said it's games vs Betis, Huesca or Getafe and the goals he scores against much lower than him and Barcelona for the whole of his career I find that over rates him.
This is just the narrative you've built in your head. Of course he scores more wondergoals against these teams - he plays them more often therefore has more opportunities to score great goals vs them. But there are countless examples of him scoring great goals vs. great teams.

Liverpool

Real Madrid

Bayern

Brazil

AC Milan

I could list many more...

Ronaldo does it against the whole of the English League. He does it against the whole of Spanish League. He does it against the whole of the Italian League. He does it against the Champions league. He does it against the European International Tournament
You say Ronaldo has done it against the whole English league but Messi has scored 2 fewer goals than Ronaldo against the top 6 in far, far fewer games.

Ronaldo has done it against the whole of the Italian league? It's a weaker league and he was forth in the scoring charts, being outscored by a 36 year old for Sampdoria. His season in Italy really isn't anything to write home about.
 

2mufc0

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Apart for the Liverpool free kick (and they ended up losing that tie anyway) the rest were a long time ago when he was playing in dominant teams. He can't produce the goods in adverse conditions. Pummelling the likes of Betis is the best we expect these days.
 

Saffron

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This is just the narrative you've built in your head. Of course he scores more wondergoals against these teams - he plays them more often therefore has more opportunities to score great goals vs them. But there are countless examples of him scoring great goals vs. great teams.

Liverpool

Real Madrid

Bayern

Brazil

AC Milan

I could list many more...



You say Ronaldo has done it against the whole English league but Messi has scored 2 fewer goals than Ronaldo against the top 6 in far, far fewer games.

Ronaldo has done it against the whole of the Italian league? It's a weaker league and he was forth in the scoring charts, being outscored by a 36 year old for Sampdoria. His season in Italy really isn't anything to write home about.
Excellent post.

History will see his first Juventus season for what it is. He stepped into the 8th consecutive champions and barely improved them. As a team, Juventus suddenly scored 16 fewer goals than last season. And finished 5 points lower.
 

MJJ

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Excellent post.

History will see his first Juventus season for what it is. He stepped into the 8th consecutive champions and barely improved them. As a team, Juventus suddenly scored 16 fewer goals than last season. And finished 5 points lower.
I mean history wont be so kind to Leo either.

Failing to win the world cup with Argentina, losing what three copa to Chile, winning the cl with either the best midfield ever or the best forward trio ever not to mention constantly choking in the CL semi for years now
 

Bole Top

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I absolutely find it funny the teams Messi plays against. As I said it's games vs Betis, Huesca or Getafe and the goals he scores against much lower than him and Barcelona for the whole of his career I find that over rates him.
you probably thought you'd sound funny mentioning Getafe, but that was actually Ronaldo's favorite club to score against when he was in Spain. the clubs Messi have the best goalscoring records are the ones on top - Valencia, both Madrid clubs and Sevilla. Ronaldo's favorite opponents in la liga, besides Getafe, were Sevilla, Atletico and Celta. and if I'm not mistaken, Messi scored more against english biggest clubs without even playing in premier league. that's even funnier than mocking Messi for scoring against Getafe which is Ronnie's favorite club anyway, so...
 

Aloysius's Back 3

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This is just the narrative you've built in your head. Of course he scores more wondergoals against these teams - he plays them more often therefore has more opportunities to score great goals vs them. But there are countless examples of him scoring great goals vs. great teams.

Liverpool

Real Madrid

Bayern

Brazil

AC Milan

I could list many more...



You say Ronaldo has done it against the whole English league but Messi has scored 2 fewer goals than Ronaldo against the top 6 in far, far fewer games.

Ronaldo has done it against the whole of the Italian league? It's a weaker league and he was forth in the scoring charts, being outscored by a 36 year old for Sampdoria. His season in Italy really isn't anything to write home about.
It isn't - I am not talking about messi's ability against the top 6. I'm talking about the difference in quality between playing for Barcelona vs playing for Liverpool or City. Im talking about the difference between getafe or betis vs Everton, wolves, the difference between Huesca vs Fulham. I could go on and on.

I've never doubted messi's ability to play against the English teams as I said so myself - but then people act like Ronaldo hasn't don't the same. I said that Messi hasn't tested himself at another league and in another team. Ronaldo has.

Messi scores a free kick and another great goal against Liverpool first leg. The victory is talked about being due to Messi and hardly anyone else from Barcelona's team gets big compliments for their performances. Barcelona then lose the second leg 4-0 & the blame goes to nearly everyone except Messi. So if Messi scores 2 goals against Liverpool & that shows his ability to play in the PL which is a much tougher 20+ teams than what is constantly put up in La Liga - why isn't the 4-0 loss an indication that he would struggle here?

As I said - people assume that we say that the guy would fail in England - that's not true. We say that he wouldn't have a such an easy time playing for a team that has been built for him as a kid and is built around him. SAF knows what he is saying when he says that.

Messi wouldn't score the exact same goal he scored against Getafe against any team in the PL. Not a team allows that space. I'm not saying that Messi couldn't score a goal like he does vs Boateng and Bayern - but he wouldn't do the others at these Leagues.

Why do I bring that up? Because ultimately Messi & Ronaldo are equal in alot of people's eyes like mine - but Messi is deemed better to some due to him being more a technical player scoring wonder goals that Ronaldo can't. The trophies, the medals, the goals scored and other stats are pretty much equal.

So what do we do to equal things up again? We come and tell you that Ronaldo has done it at different Leagues, under different managers against different types of players and teams and tournaments. Then the Messi crowd make nothing but an assumption.

Nothing but an assumption. Messi goes on seasons upon seasons scoring 42+ goals for Barcelona but I just don't see him pulling those numbers if he played for United even during the time we had Tevez, Rooney, Giggs,l in midfield, Vidic, Scholes vs getting to play with the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Dani Alves. Forget the fact that Pep manages ball to feet playing possession football and SAF would have played a different game. What about Neymar, Suarez Messi vs Sterling, Aguero, Messi or vs Sterling, Messi, Mahrez? What's better? What about Xavi, Iniesta & Busquets vs Fernandinho, De bryune & David silva?

The fact is - messi would be playing in a weaker team in a league that has harder teams to deal with. I'm not saying Messi wouldn't be a lad that scores 20-30 goals - the lad would be amazing..

But there wouldn't be this heavy imbalance between rating what Messi has only ever done for Barcelona vs what Ronaldo has done for every team he has played in in every league with different managers and different teams.
 

Zehner

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Apart for the Liverpool free kick (and they ended up losing that tie anyway) the rest were a long time ago when he was playing in dominant teams. He can't produce the goods in adverse conditions. Pummelling the likes of Betis is the best we expect these days.
How can anyone be so bitter? :lol:
 

Aloysius's Back 3

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you probably thought you'd sound funny mentioning Getafe, but that was actually Ronaldo's favorite club to score against when he was in Spain. the clubs Messi have the best goalscoring records are the ones on top - Valencia, both Madrid clubs and Sevilla. Ronaldo's favorite opponents in la liga, besides Getafe, were Sevilla, Atletico and Celta. and if I'm not mistaken, Messi scored more against english biggest clubs without even playing in premier league. that's even funnier than mocking Messi for scoring against Getafe which is Ronnie's favorite club anyway, so...
All the whilst playing only for Barcelona which had players Ronaldo could have only deemed of playing with. Read my post above. Messi playing in the great United CL winning team would be world class - but absolutely no way would he pulling off the same results and goals amount playing for a team that had different players, different tactics, different managers, different Leagues and teams.
 

Synco

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Apart for the Liverpool free kick (and they ended up losing that tie anyway) the rest were a long time ago when he was playing in dominant teams. He can't produce the goods in adverse conditions. Pummelling the likes of Betis is the best we expect these days.
Sorry, but in La Liga & CdR Messi had 16 goals/assists in 13 games against the teams placed 2-6. In the CL he had 10 goals/assists in 7 games against Tottenham, Lyon, United, Pool. And we all know his contributions go far beyond that. Real was the only one of these teams he didn't score against.

Everyone can prefer who he or she wants to, but the facts should at least be acknowledged.
 

RedRonaldo

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He’s not the greatest so he doesn’t win this thread :lol:

It’s just an illogical argument and double standard. If I thought Ronaldo genuinely was a better player than Messi, I wouldn’t contort myself silly trying to argue Messi was somehow ”greater” based on some highly arbitrary factors. But that’s exactly what several Ronaldo posters are doing in this thread.
Well to be the best, it’s matter of opinions in many case. However, to be the greatest, opinions doesn’t matter, it’s all about achievements, individual and career achievements. For example, if we win 10 CL in a row, we have a very strong case to claim as the greatest team ever, even though our football is nothing special. On the other hand, if City is going to dominate majority football matches in the next 10 years in breathtaking fashion, people can rate them the best team ever, but if they fail to win any CL, they can’t claim themselves the greatest. It’s not exactly rocket science.
 

Saffron

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Sorry, but in La Liga & CdR Messi had 16 goals/assists in 13 games against the teams placed 2-6. In the CL he had 10 goals/assists in 7 games against Tottenham, Lyon, United, Pool. And we all know his contributions go far beyond that. Real was the only one of these teams he didn't score against.

Everyone can prefer who he or she wants to, but the facts should at least be acknowledged.
Yeah, if anyone of these two should he labeled a flat track bully in the league, it’s Ronaldo. Always pushing hard for goal number 3 or 4 against the likes of Getafe when the match is already won (stat padding) and always hogging the penalties. Whereas Messi often lets off the gas against fodder and gives away penalties to his teammates.

Here’s an interesting stat regarding big league games. In all El Clasicos not counting 2018-2019, Messi has 14 assists. Ronaldo has 1.
 

2mufc0

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Sorry, but in La Liga & CdR Messi had 16 goals/assists in 13 games against the teams placed 2-6. In the CL he had 10 goals/assists in 7 games against Tottenham, Lyon, United, Pool. And we all know his contributions go far beyond that. Real was the only one of these teams he didn't score against.

Everyone can prefer who he or she wants to, but the facts should at least be acknowledged.
I'm guessing most of those games were in group stages and at the Nou Camp. Scoring against United and Lyon is no big feat either. Furthermore, this goes beyond merely scoring goals, it's about standing up when your team really needs you and making that difference in a tough game or when the odds are against you. He hasn't done that for a very long time.
 

Synco

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I'm guessing most of those games were in group stages and at the Nou Camp. Scoring against United and Lyon is no big feat either. Furthermore, this goes beyond merely scoring goals, it's about standing up when your team really needs you and making that difference in a tough game or when the odds are against you. He hasn't done that for a very long time.
Hm, it seems we don't have much of a common basis on this topic. I think Messi deserves nothing but praise for this season, and also that he was very good overall at Anfield.
Yeah, if anyone of these two should he labeled a flat track bully in the league, it’s Ronaldo. Always pushing hard for goal number 3 or 4 against the likes of Getafe when the match is already won (stat padding) and always hogging the penalties. Whereas Messi often lets off the gas against fodder and gives away penalties to his teammates.

Here’s an interesting stat regarding big league games. In all El Clasicos not counting 2018-2019, Messi has 14 assists. Ronaldo has 1.
Putting down Ronaldo wasn't actually my intention, rather pointing out the other guy's feats this season. But it's almost impossible to have one without the other in here. Well.
 

Schneckerl

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Why is this guy so bang average in finals except once or maybe twice having nine tries? I know most people started watching football max. 10 years ago, but I can assure you this is not normal for a supposed "GOAT".
 

2mufc0

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Hm, it seems we don't have much of a common basis on this topic. I think Messi deserves nothing but praise for this season, and also that he was very good overall at Anfield.
Don't get me wrong he's had a good season and is a brilliant player, I just disagree that he's the undisputed no. 1 like a lot of his fans claim. He has big character/mentality flaws which takes him out of the no. 1 discussion imo.
 

Saffron

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Why is this guy so bang average in finals except once or maybe twice having nine tries? I know most people started watching football max. 10 years ago, but I can assure you this is not normal for a supposed "GOAT".

Messi in finals: 29 goals 14 assists.

Ronaldo in finals: 19 goals 2 assists.

Ronaldo in finals with Portugal: 0 goals 0 assists.

Source: michaelacosta.com.
 

Cal?

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Oh, it is debatable. But what is not debatable, is that in the majority of people's opinions across the board (ex footballers, managers, fans) Leo is considered better. Sadly, that is something Cristiano fans cant accept.
Guess you're one level up on the "If you don't agree with me you know nothing" lot that many of the Messi brigade belongs. :)

Since when was the majority always right? Brexit a great idea?
 

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Why is this guy so bang average in finals except once or maybe twice having nine tries? I know most people started watching football max. 10 years ago, but I can assure you this is not normal for a supposed "GOAT".
He has more goals scored in the knockout stages of the Champions League than some top clubs. Case you didn’t noticed to reach the final he scored 3 on a semifinal, but probably you didn’t know that.
 

Cal?

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Messi in finals: 29 goals 14 assists.

Ronaldo in finals: 19 goals 2 assists.

Ronaldo in finals with Portugal: 0 goals 0 assists.

Source: michaelacosta.com.
:lol: Seriously? You're going to pretend Copa del Rey finals are massive games on par with Euro/CL finals? :lol:
 

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:lol: Seriously? You're going to pretend Copa del Rey finals are massive games on par with Euro/CL finals? :lol:
Aren’t these the guys who always said Ronaldo only has stats to show?
 

KirkDuyt

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Yet somehow when Messi led Argentina to the WC in the final game, it was a GREAT achievement, never mind the fact that Argentina have never ever failed to qualify for the WC.
You were corrected saying this a few weeks ago and acknowledge this. I'm curious, why do you now wittingly lie about it?
 

Saffron

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:lol: Seriously? You're going to pretend Copa del Rey finals are massive games on par with Euro/CL finals? :lol:
He said ”finals”, what’s your problem?

Messi has still scored in 2 CL finals and has a better individual record in NT finals.
 

KirkDuyt

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So I overlooked that ONE time they failed to qualify. Bite me
Not my point. Last time you gave this same response. That means you didn't overlook it this time. Either you have very serious memory issues, or you are wittingly repeating something that's not true to further your argument.

Are you Donald Trump?
 

MalcolmTucker

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It isn't - I am not talking about messi's ability against the top 6. I'm talking about the difference in quality between playing for Barcelona vs playing for Liverpool or City. Im talking about the difference between getafe or betis vs Everton, wolves, the difference between Huesca vs Fulham. I could go on and on.
I think you overrate the PL, when Messi and Ronaldo were both in La Liga it was the strongest league in the world. You only have to see the points totals Liverpool and Man City have got since becoming top teams to see that and neither have players that are of Messi's calibre.

Messi scores a free kick and another great goal against Liverpool first leg. The victory is talked about being due to Messi and hardly anyone else from Barcelona's team gets big compliments for their performances. Barcelona then lose the second leg 4-0 & the blame goes to nearly everyone except Messi. So if Messi scores 2 goals against Liverpool & that shows his ability to play in the PL which is a much tougher 20+ teams than what is constantly put up in La Liga - why isn't the 4-0 loss an indication that he would struggle here?
Because Messi was the best player on the pitch over the two legs - he scored two goals and created about 6 goalscoring chances. You picked a terrible example.

Messi wouldn't score the exact same goal he scored against Getafe against any team in the PL. Not a team allows that space. I'm not saying that Messi couldn't score a goal like he does vs Boateng and Bayern - but he wouldn't do the others at these Leagues.
Messi created space by taking it past 2 players with 4 touches within a second. There's 7+ players ahead of Messi when he receives the ball and he takes it past half of them by dribbling.
Plenty of teams allow that space, the premier league isn't as unique as you think it is. If Messi can still score 2 goals and create various chances vs. Liverpool, a team that suffocates the space more than anyone else in the PL (or club football, probably), imagine what he'd do against Huddersfield or Bournemouth?

So what do we do to equal things up again? We come and tell you that Ronaldo has done it at different Leagues, under different managers against different types of players and teams and tournaments. Then the Messi crowd make nothing but an assumption
:lol: Bit rich to say this when your whole argument is based on the assumption that Messi wouldn't be as good away from Barcelona or in a different league. We can only go on what they actually have shown in their careers. Also Messi has played under different systems and managers - none of whom except Pep have gone on to have success after managing Barcelona. Whereas Ronaldo has been coached by all-time greats and top managers like SAF, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Zidane, Allegri.
 

Saffron

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Are you Donald Trump?
New readers of this thread may be interested to learn that, in fact, Cal? once received the well deserved personal tagline: ”The Trump of CR7 fans”.

An accurate decision by the mods indeed.

Back on topic: Messi just scored 2 goals in an international final and I have a feeling there will be more in the Copa. Then the Copa will cancel out the Euro (and more, since Ronnie didn’t play) and Messi will have that extra NT title on the side.
 

Cal?

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Not my point. Last time you gave this same response. That means you didn't overlook it this time. Either you have very serious memory issues, or you are wittingly repeating something that's not true to further your argument.

Are you Donald Trump?
I don't take anything the Messi brigade say seriously, so I missed that ONE time Argentina failed to qualify. The fact is they almost always get there quite easily due to the numerous places available to Conmebol.
 

Cal?

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New readers of this thread may be interested to learn that, in fact, Cal? once received the well deserved personal tagline: ”The Trump of CR7 fans”.

An accurate decision by the mods indeed.

Back on topic: Messi just scored 2 goals in an international final and I have a feeling there will be more in the Copa. Then the Copa will cancel out the Euro (and more, since Ronnie didn’t play) and Messi will have that extra NT title on the side.
The fact the Copa is held every so often and is much easier to win makes a mockery of that suggestion.

Anyway, it's probably Messi quits on his country again and everyone else gets blamed when Argentina lose again. :smirk:
 

KirkDuyt

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I don't take anything the Messi brigade say seriously, so I missed that ONE time Argentina failed to qualify. The fact is they almost always get there quite easily due to the numerous places available to Conmebol.
You are truly the GOAT at missing the point.

Consider my hat taken off.

@Saffron

I always loyalty cr7 is still the best tagline in history.
 

Tostao_80

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you probably thought you'd sound funny mentioning Getafe, but that was actually Ronaldo's favorite club to score against when he was in Spain. the clubs Messi have the best goalscoring records are the ones on top - Valencia, both Madrid clubs and Sevilla. Ronaldo's favorite opponents in la liga, besides Getafe, were Sevilla, Atletico and Celta. and if I'm not mistaken, Messi scored more against english biggest clubs without even playing in premier league. that's even funnier than mocking Messi for scoring against Getafe which is Ronnie's favorite club anyway, so...
Unfortunately, they don't do facts, facts spoil their narrative. Speaking of their narrative, yeah Messi only scores against rubbish teams, and he would struggle against Englands best.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6932167/Lionel-Messi-Champions-League-goals-against-English-teams.html
 

Zehner

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What was incorrect?
Everything? Messi has exemplarily destroyed Atletico and Real multiple times in recent seasons. And I mean "destroyed" as in "he tore them apart with his dribbles, passes and goals" not as in "he scored two goals and was invisible apart from that". He also destroyed Liverpool and Chelsea in the CL and probably some more top sides in matches I don't remember since I don't keep record. Oh, and he "Cristiano-destroyed" United when he scored twice against you lot but wasn't that special overall.

By the way, the match Messi had against Liverpool this year was more impressive than anything I saw from Cristiano in his last three CL wins. And I haven't seen Cristiano having a game as good as Messi's second leg against them without scoring in years.