Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Rado_N, Jan 20, 2015.

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Messi or Ronaldo

  1. Messi

  2. Ronaldo

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  1. Jun 14, 2019

    Aloysius's Back 3 New Member

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    Messi is the best to watch in the world. Ronaldo is the most varied and trophy full.

    I could watch Ronaldo testing himself all day against every single team in the world playing with a whole different team and players making up the numbers:drool:

    If I had a son I'd tell him to enjoy Messi and what he does for Barcelona especially seeing how the lad inter links with Xavi & Iniesta for Barcelona - don't waist time watching Messi at Argentina - it's apparently all Higuains fault. :drool:

    Son, if you want to be a footballer or even the worlds strongest human being - then my son go be Cristiano Ronaldo - best CV in world football, scores wonder goals & tests him self across the world like a godamn robot. Will reach the top my son :drool: you will be able to play at any team against any team, with any player and against any player :eek:

    I really hope for Messi's sake that the lad wins a world Cup with Argentina or atleast a easy peasy copa America - I would happily shut my mouth :p its a shame that the one team that hasn't been totally built around him that he comes away looking 5% off his normal abilities?

    C Ronaldo please mate, finish a CL off in the next 3 years with Juve & go down as a true, hard working robot of a legend that I can tell my kids to grow up as. :drool:

    Messi is just a growth hormone injection away from being 'meh-ssi' :lol:
  2. Jun 14, 2019

    MalcolmTucker Full Member

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    you're a strange one :lol:
  3. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    In all fairness, Messi's passing is great but not absolute GOAT level. I don't even think he's the best final third passer of his generation, that honour belongs to prime Özil. Many of Messi's through balls are actually a side product of his dribbling abilities and even many of his long range passes are, too, because opponents are afraid to attack him which grants him time on the ball. This combination of all tike great dribbling and world class passing is what makes him so unique but looking solely at passing, it's different IMO. After all, he plays some of the most impressive passes currently, but he also misplaces many, sort of like de Bruyne (both having like 80-85% success rate). This is also represented in the stats. Özil on top of his game averaged 4 key passes per game and this is unmatched as far as I know. David Silva, Messi and many more seem to hit a barrier at 3.

    I'd also say Laudrup was a better final third passer than Messi.
  4. Jun 14, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    Personally, I don't need stats to see that "prime Ozil" never got as good as Messi passing wise.
  5. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    Then watch him. Özil is/was in a category of his own in terms of final third passing.

    Even if you don't like stats, you should take a look at their career totals. Messi has a passing accuracy of 82% and averages 2,7 key passes per game. De Bruyne has 79% and averages 2.5. Özil has 86% and averages 3. On top of playing more key passes, he also attempts fewer than his peers. I'm quite sure you won't find a player able to match that.
  6. Jun 14, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    I have, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. Surely attempting them fewer makes it easier to have a higher percentage ?
  7. Jun 14, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Ronaldo shooting from 40 yards out was counted as a key pass for Ozil.
  8. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    Sure, but he still gets more successful key passes out of it than anybody else, including Messi. And that's although he doesn't have special dribbling abilities that makes it easier for him to find the passing lanes like Messi does.
  9. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    He had similar or even better stats for Arsenal and Bremen as far as I know
  10. Jun 14, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Yeah, he takes all the set pieces. Any set piece which attacker heads the ball, no matter how far the ball ends up is also counted as key pass.
  11. Jun 14, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    He doesn't have any other thing to do in games either but make those passes, he isn't expected to dribble, isn't expected to score, he isn't marked by several players in games.
  12. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    And I'm not suggesting he's better than Messi ;) I only claim that he is/used to be a better pure final third passer than him. I mean, if Messi was better than him, he surely should get more key passes than Özil since he attempts more. Yet he doesn't.

    Of course Özil has many other weaknesses which are the reasons why he never really made it at the absolute top level but his final third passing is unparalleled in this generation.
  13. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    But those things are also true for Messi who delivers many free kicks. And when Özil was at Madrid, Cristiano still took almost all freekicks, even from positions where you'd usually cross. We're talking ablut career stats, such things even out over the course of 400+ matches. There's a reason no other can match Özil's stats in that regard. No Messi, no Silva, no de Bruyne, no Pirlo, no Kaka.
  14. Jun 14, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    I see your point but I don't see it at the same time.
  15. Jun 14, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Messi takes direct freekicks and IIRC he doesn't take corners. They usually play short ones too.

    Take out set pieces and see how many key passes are from open play.
  16. Jun 14, 2019

    MalcolmTucker Full Member

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    I've watched countless hours of Ozil playing and he is definitely not a better passer than Messi, he's very good and inventive but he's no where near as direct or active with his passes - no amount of stats will change my mind.

    Laudrup on the other hand may very well be even better than Messi at through balls but I've only seen very impressive compilations of Laudrup so can't really judge.
  17. Jun 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    Sadly I don't know how to do that ;) But you can turn this around, too. I'm confident that Messi, playing for Barca in a possession oriemted team, gets far more opportunities for key passes than Özil. Even if the latter took more set pieces, that would even it out - especially since if Özil would've taken that many free kicks, it wluld affect his successful passing rate, too.

    Besides that, there's still nobody in the world to match his stats. There are many players in the world who takemany, many set pieces and many of them are probably even better specialists at it than Özil, yet they don't come close to his stats. I think you'd have a valid point if it was about, say, Kroos or Pjanic, but not when it's about Özil.


    Fair enough. Maybe rewatch a compilation of Özil's best passes to fresh up the memory. Recency is a huge bias and considering how his career developed across the last few years, many impressions may be overshadowed.
  18. Jun 14, 2019

    MJJ New Member

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    Anyone else finding it funny in an ironic way that Zehner is arguing against the eye test using stats for ozil.
  19. Jun 14, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    You can bring as many filters as possible, that's not something I argued. It was on key passes and how set piece takers will always have higher number of key passes. Also if I'm not wrong, Set pieces are not counter for pass completion percentage.
  20. Jun 14, 2019

    Pocho Gayer than Marcosdeto (according to Marcos, who sh

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    You better tell your son to be Ronaldo he'll be very frustrated in his attempt of being Messi
  21. Jun 14, 2019

    MalcolmTucker Full Member

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    The weight, ambition and difficulty of Messi's passing separates himself from Ozil - these attributes aren't covered by your stats. Also the Messi video is 4 years old, before his playmaking prime.
  22. Jun 14, 2019

    Aloysius's Back 3 New Member

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    I won't allow him to have growth hormone injections to be fair.

    We will all talk about my son having a natural ability when infact he had a natural deficiency that was treated by an extra additional non natural injection(s) to get him back in to shape or contention. Hopefully FC Barcelona pay for it too because Angel Gomes could have used some but didn't seem to get anything at United :(

    If he did decide to take it then I would tell everyone to not act like my boy is all natural - just a small player that was able to grow to a level of playing football but staying the smallest possible with regards to his dribbling abilities et all.

    I hope my son listens to me though - watch the really human piece of nature that is C. Ronaldo and watch how he turned from a natural player with mistakes to a player with a level of perfection. Trophies, club football, league football, International football, goals, free kicks, CL and dominance.

    Furthermore, I would tell my son when it comes to University age for him to go and try something new - instead of just spending the whole life at home whilst the mother, father, iniesta or Xavi has to look after him; try something new & try get rewards not just at University de la FC Barcelona. Try something new my son. I hope he isn't just good when he is at home because C. Ronaldo can do it at anybodies door steps; he can do it whilst living on the streets. I will tell my son to try something different to playing at FC Barcelona and try show us his ability worldwide with his international endeavours. Its hard to do things out of your comfort zone.

    Hopefully that's something my son can target - making life comfortable - but not too comfortable to the point where you are never testing yourself.

    Love you my son. X
  23. Jun 14, 2019

    Tostao_80 New Member

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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ba...o-ronaldo-goals-assists-mesut-ozil-ballon-dor

    Interesting article.
    The most productive (and one day probably the most prolific) football player the world has ever seen. This too, with another 3+ years left. But this is just an addictive.
    The guy basically also has arguably more GOAT attributes than any other great too (passing, goalscoring, dribbling, technical ability).
    There has never been anyone like him.
  24. Jun 14, 2019

    Saffron New Member

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    Incredible stats, thanks for sharing. Here’s a nice excerpt:

  25. Jun 14, 2019

    VanKenny New Member

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    Ozil was a great passer but in no way shape or form close to Messi let alone better than him. Messi often has to play multiple passes trying to break 9 man defenses, that + his dribbling is most of the times the way Barcelona get to break the defensive wall that they face every single game. Of course trying to break down a 9 man defense will reduce the success of passes and dribbles, since its not the same doing it with 5 yards of space than doing it with 1 yard of space and a double man mark.

    At Real Madrid, Ozil would play a counterataccking style of football specially Under Mourinho, where the games would be more open for him to attempt those. At Arsenal or his other teams, again he had 5x as much space as Messi, and rarely played against packed defenses.

    Not even in the same ballpark IMO but i guess to each their own
  26. Jun 14, 2019

    Saffron New Member

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    Personally I think it’s telling that there are very long YouTube playmaking compilations for the 3 best (in my opinion) final third passers in history: Messi, Laudrup and Maradona.

    For laudrup, we have an 83 minute video on just his passing. For Maradona also very long, 43 minutes. Messi has even longer.

    Whereas when I check the longest video for Özil, I can only find 22 minutes. For Ronaldo I cannot find a single video over 20 minutes with just playmaking/passes (no goals or skill moves).

    I think this is important because stats don’t mean that much without the eye test, and clearly there is not that much visually great playmaking material for Ronaldo compared to the all time greats. Whereas on the other hand, someone found 83 minutes worth of breathtaking passes to put into a Laudrup video.
  27. Jun 14, 2019

    VorZakone What would Kenny G do?

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    Ozil's passing more impressive than Messi's? Never even remotely crossed my mind. Ozil is a great passer, Messi is a genius passer.
  28. Jun 15, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    I think that's a little bit like saying that Cristiano is a better shot taker than Messi because he scored some absolute screamers from very long ranges. But Messi is a much better finisher around the box where you are much more likely to score so that should have more weight since those situations account for a much higher perventage of opportunities.

    In a similar sense, it's the consistency and frequency of Özil's delivery in the final third that sets him apart, IMO. Messi attempts many more key passes from more difficult positions so logically, he should get more of them after all, yet he doesn't. When you observe him play you'll also realize that he sometimes overhits through balls or has his passes intercepted. You very rarely see that with Özil whose deliveries are almost always on point and that's the reason why he's got both a better passing accuracy and more key passes per 90 than Leo. When comparing both's "passing primes" this difference becomes even more obvious. Averaging 4+ key passes per game is something no other player even came close to if I remember correctly.

    That aside, I think that some of Özil's best passes are just as impressive and difficult as Messi's but that's a question of preference. I think Özil simply doesn't get the same attention since he's obviously at least two levels below Messi and thus fewer people really follow his performances, especially now that he's having a painfully bad season.

    Some examples:





    First pass:


    Complete video (3 min) :
  29. Jun 15, 2019

    KeanoMagicHat New Member

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    Ozil being a better final ball passer than Messi is a fair shout I think, possibly Fabregas as well at his peak, while Berbatov probably had a better first touch, Hazard/Ronaldinho as good dribblers, Juninho a better free kick taker and Van Nistelrooy a better finisher.

    But they're all pretty much 9/10 or 10/10 in one thing whereas Messi is 9/10 or better in them all. That is what makes him truly great.
  30. Jun 16, 2019

    freeurmind weak willed

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    Hmmm
  31. Jun 16, 2019

    Ole’s Wheel New Member

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  32. Jun 16, 2019

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

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    Seen too many just uninspiring displays from Messi at the NT level for him to be my GOAT(still better than CR7 for me though).

    He's never needed to win with Argentina for me, but he's had to perform to a standard. Show something. Inspire. I'm not expecting '86 Maradona out there, but just something at a NT level.

    Not play lazily and sulk about on the field.
  33. Jun 16, 2019

    Kinsella Copy & Paste Merchant

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    I get this viewpoint on paper, but when you actually watch Argentina play then these expectations really have to be tempered with reality.
  34. Jun 16, 2019

    The holy trinity 68 The disparager

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    Who is the GOAT in your opinion and what is your reasoning?
  35. Jun 16, 2019

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

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    They are definitely awful now.

    But they weren't always this awful.
  36. Jun 16, 2019

    GifLord The gif that keeps on giffing

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    They've been this horrible for the past 3-4 years
  37. Jun 16, 2019

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

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    They were clearly a better team back in 2015.

    This currently is a whole new level.
  38. Jun 16, 2019

    Kinsella Copy & Paste Merchant

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    They've been quite poor for some time, relatively speaking.

    True. They did get to a number of finals I suppose but came up against superior opposition.
  39. Jun 16, 2019

    Kinsella Copy & Paste Merchant

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    For what it's worth...in my opinion there isn't one.
  40. Jun 16, 2019

    Bruno Marques New Member

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    Yap, it's really hard for Messi to play with Aguero, Di Maria, Dybala and company.

    Ronaldo has better support like Eder and Guedes. :D:D:D