Agreed doubt it will happen at this stage though. Portugal is strong now though and Argentina is solid but they are past their prime.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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For people not knowing that Ronaldo said that the record he wanted the most was the most Ballon D'ors, here it is.
@Bebestation regarding your just now deleted post Ronaldinho recognized 18 Messi at the best at Barca when Ronaldinho won his Ballon D'or.
You know I was watching the City match yesterday whilst reading the thread " how do you beat this City team?". People don't really have an answer. People are lost at what to do. It seems easy for them to play football whilst harder for everyone else.
To so so many people this Guardiola team can seem unbeatable in arguably the toughest league thats ever been in a long time when it comes to managerial competition of Tuchel, Pep, Conte, Klopp, Rangnick, Rodgers, Benitez and so so many well known names all under one bus.
Then I started thinking - Pep is doing this now with Manchester City; but Pep arguably did these exact tactics (+/-5% tactics) with the team that was the most naturally built towards it in La Liga by utilising La Masia. People were making the same noises back then- this team seems impossible to beat.
Everyone was wowed, calling it the best football anyone had seen. Calling it the best team that's ever been. You look at Barcelona and then see that the further and further Barcelona went away from the age of Pep Guardiola the less successful they would be with things like UCL's going down first, deteriorating and then La Liga deteriorating bit by bit too. Even after he left after literally being unbeatable with that club and bored, leaving Barcelona at the top of their game; an ex Barcelona player manager took over in Luis Enrique, got some of his tactics wrong, went back to adapt the tactics that were better and also became a very good team whilst kind of less unbeatable than before.
It got me thinking - how much do people link Messi as being their great due to how that Barcelona was playing football the first time they saw Pep Guardiola's management?
Guardiola is arguably in terms of pure quality of football coaching the best manager many have seen - the football is near impossible to beat. No one had seen football like that before the Pep Guardiola reign. It was the first time we saw football like that to our eyes. Its the type of football people believe changed football to go to a different direction- with more philosophies and tactics engraved in football than ever before.
Guardiola would be the man who created the team that would be impossible to beat - as we see even now with Man City, it wasn't Messi.
Messi was not the cake of Barcelona, he was the cherry on top of the cake of Barcelona. He made an already impossible job end with the opposition getting slapped on the face with a wonder goal of quality and quantity.
We saw this with Spain National team, tactics were completely copied due to the national team able to literally pick Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Pedro etc - the team felt they could win everything, that they had everything - except maybe the one who would put the ball in the back of the net with ease, the one who juggled the ball over the GK then volleyed it in. Even if the cake was there, unbeatable just as in club football, the cherry on the top of the cake wasn't always there to make an already impossible job finish with a slap on the face.
Man City seem copy and pasted with a bunch of players that were not ever coached or taught to play total football, or have La Masia education - yet many call them impossible to beat, being talked about now in such a similar way where you just sit their and sulk at the football you hate because you will lose but still you do have to appreciate in terms of its pure quality. They have had arguably everything during Pep's time except a player that would put the ball in the net more easily, the same as Spain. Aguero and Gabriel Jesus are good but not as good as Messi was, which we see even when aguero moved to Barcelona.
Pep Guardiola's football is to many people - the best that they have ever seen. We saw that football the first time in Barcelona and was wowed. It does make me wonder just how much of that led to Messi being viewed as the Goat to arguably 60% of the world.
To so so many people this Guardiola team can seem unbeatable in arguably the toughest league thats ever been in a long time when it comes to managerial competition of Tuchel, Pep, Conte, Klopp, Rangnick, Rodgers, Benitez and so so many well known names all under one bus.
Then I started thinking - Pep is doing this now with Manchester City; but Pep arguably did these exact tactics (+/-5% tactics) with the team that was the most naturally built towards it in La Liga by utilising La Masia. People were making the same noises back then- this team seems impossible to beat.
Everyone was wowed, calling it the best football anyone had seen. Calling it the best team that's ever been. You look at Barcelona and then see that the further and further Barcelona went away from the age of Pep Guardiola the less successful they would be with things like UCL's going down first, deteriorating and then La Liga deteriorating bit by bit too. Even after he left after literally being unbeatable with that club and bored, leaving Barcelona at the top of their game; an ex Barcelona player manager took over in Luis Enrique, got some of his tactics wrong, went back to adapt the tactics that were better and also became a very good team whilst kind of less unbeatable than before.
It got me thinking - how much do people link Messi as being their great due to how that Barcelona was playing football the first time they saw Pep Guardiola's management?
Guardiola is arguably in terms of pure quality of football coaching the best manager many have seen - the football is near impossible to beat. No one had seen football like that before the Pep Guardiola reign. It was the first time we saw football like that to our eyes. Its the type of football people believe changed football to go to a different direction- with more philosophies and tactics engraved in football than ever before.
Guardiola would be the man who created the team that would be impossible to beat - as we see even now with Man City, it wasn't Messi.
Messi was not the cake of Barcelona, he was the cherry on top of the cake of Barcelona. He made an already impossible job end with the opposition getting slapped on the face with a wonder goal of quality and quantity.
We saw this with Spain National team, tactics were completely copied due to the national team able to literally pick Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Pedro etc - the team felt they could win everything, that they had everything - except maybe the one who would put the ball in the back of the net with ease, the one who juggled the ball over the GK then volleyed it in. Even if the cake was there, unbeatable just as in club football, the cherry on the top of the cake wasn't always there to make an already impossible job finish with a slap on the face.
Man City seem copy and pasted with a bunch of players that were not ever coached or taught to play total football, or have La Masia education - yet many call them impossible to beat, being talked about now in such a similar way where you just sit their and sulk at the football you hate because you will lose but still you do have to appreciate in terms of its pure quality. They have had arguably everything during Pep's time except a player that would put the ball in the net more easily, the same as Spain. Aguero and Gabriel Jesus are good but not as good as Messi was, which we see even when aguero moved to Barcelona.
Pep Guardiola's football is to many people - the best that they have ever seen. We saw that football the first time in Barcelona and was wowed. It does make me wonder just how much of that led to Messi being viewed as the Goat to arguably 60% of the world.
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Neither Messi or Ronaldo would have won as many individual honours if they had played in mediocre or shit teams. Obviously barca went downhill when they replaced a wc manager with crap ones and replaced wc players with flops. And pep has been schooled several times. Even by Ole.
And i mean they just beat Newcastle one of the worst teams in the league.
Managers need quality players.
Pep Guardiola still hasn't won a CL without Messi,Xavi or Iniesta...De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, and Gundogan, as great as they are, are two tiers below the former.
People can talk about management all they want, players are the ones who win games.
Which Chelsea player is supposed to be Messi, Xavi or Iniesta?
Erm Inter, Liverpool and Chelsea?
Right Bayern team was shit too. 
Would you say Chelsea has dominated European football lately. Every now and then a longshot finds the top corner......
Liverpool made 2 finals in a row and won one of them without having that quality of talent. Under Benitez as well.
The Benitez run was definitively one of those longshots finding the top corner.
The 18' final was a longshot for sure, but that 19' Liverpool team was full of quality though: A dynamic WC front 3 (Salah, Mane and Firmino), a fantastic CDM in Fabinho, the best CD in the world in VVD, two wingbacks of top quality and Alisson combined incredible luck with injuries over 2 seasons.
Klopps' two Bundesliga titles and CL final with Dortmund are more impressive, but of course all managers needs quality players to produce consistant results. Without his key players Klopp doesn't get results either...
Place that Liverpool 18' and last seasons Chelsea in a superleague format and they would be lucky to end up at the top half of the table. The Cup format is a format where David has a chance to beat Goliath every now and then. To get consistant results over time every great manager also needs great players and the right players.
They knocked out 2018/2019 Barca with several of their key players injured. A bit like Spurs knocked out City mainly due to Son. Anyway that was a strong Liverpool squad but not at the level of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta etc. It's klopp who elevated their performance. Of course shite teams don't dominate the CL, but the worlds best managers can win the CL without having world class players in nearly every position.
Or : Any manager who enters the competition with a team can make a deep run or win the whole thing. Like Klaus Topmöller, Roberto Di Matteo, Pochettino and so on even without WC squads. All those managers got their teams to a CL final with teams punching way above their weightclass (Leverkusen, Chelsea (won the thing) and Spurs) and they all got fired within 8 months later.....Deep runs in the CL doesn't necessarily mean you are a WC manager.
Players decide matches, not managers.
Liverpool knocked out Barca on the back of a single great performance and a lot of luck, and if Ousmane Dembele wasn't such a horrible finisher that tie would be over before the 2nd leg....
Klopp is a great manager, a fantastic manager, don't get me wrong, but he like any other top manager needs quality players of the right profile to produce results over time, and some luck to go with it. If you give Klopp all the credit for that 4-0 win against Barca, you need to give him all the credit for the crap season they had last season as well, and the 0-3 defeat they suffered 2 weeks before the 4-0 win. A quality squad is of course the main key to good results.
Spurs got past City after Lloris saved a penalty and Laport singlehandedly gave away 2 goals in the 2nd leg, the Ajax tie was even more lucky....It wasn't like Poch masterclassed Spurs to that final, that was pure chance going Spurs way.
Of course players matter more than managers:
Barca: 2008 - 2018. That squad was bound to win stuff with any top 50 manager in Europe.
Won 5 Laligas, 5 Copa del Reys, 1 CL and 5 other trophies post Pep with 5 different managers.
Real Madrid: 2008 - 2018 That squad was bound to win stuff with any top 50 manager in Europe.
Won trophies with 5 different managers since 2008.
PSG post Qatar: Bound to dominate domesticly and will eventually win in Europe with their squads with any top 50 manager in Europe.
Won Ligue 1 and domestic cups with every manager they've had since Qatar took over, except Poch (who will walk the league this season).
City post Abu Dhabi: Bound to dominate domesticly and will eventually win in Europe with their squads with any top 50 manager in Europe.
Won the PL and domestic cups with all 3 of their managers post Abu Dhabi.
Bayern: Bound the dominate domesticly and win stuff in Europe every now and then with any top 50 manager in Europe.
Have won the Bundesliga with 11 different managers since 1996. Klinsman, the only permanent manager since 1996 who wasn't able to win the BL with Bayern was fired during his first season.
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It was the guy making excuses for pep not winning a cl post barca
I guess that is extremely disappointing for him, because he's had the players and resources to do it. No excuses really.
Do I think we would have won any major trophies or achieved higher league positions the last 2 seasons with a proven WC manager instead of Ole those 2 seasons?: No. We might have won a cup or the EL, but that is no guarantee either. The competition was too strong and there was better squads than ours in the PL and the CL. There is way too much focus on managers in todays football.
Its a balance. We've spent fortunes and won feck all for almost a decade. Good managers are transfer savy and make their players perform. If Benitez had stayed at Real madrid i dont think they would have won a 3 peat. Guardiola is class but he hasnt won a cl since 2011 despite having truly quality squads. Personally i think mourinho treble witj Inter was his most impressive achievement. Mainly for knocking out Barca fair and square who looked unstoppable.
Guardiola is an amazing league coach but when he comes to the CL, he has a tendancy to shoot himself in the foot with absurd tactical decisions.
Meh-ssi 
A bit quiet again here today!
I'm not doubting his ability to get better - it's more the pride that I have about myself being a person who values a players adaptability & success in different teams, different tactics, in different leagues rather than just dominate when playing for one.
It's weird how people are willing to see Pep Guardiola like this but not the players.
Pep is one of the best managers ever, no one is doubting that - especially due to the way he has the ability to get his team play a certain style of stylish, controllable football.
Yet whilst he is no doubt one of the best ever, (I'm sure in the top 5 to most) it's harder (however not impossible) for people to make that next step up and call him the GOAT manager because his accomplishments at Bayern Munich and Man City have not been the expected level compared to what he did reach with Barcelona, the club that he grew up at and dominated with a core blending of his tactics and style.
If Pep does it (winning CL'S/hattricks) with City or another similair club like he did if ar Barca - then I'm sure people will more likely view him as the GOAT more easily like I would do to.
If Messi does it and accomplish his Barcelona level at Paris SG; .performing like how he used to and gets the trophies, I have no reason to not call him my GOAT.
However until then, The player who could do it anywhere, anytime, any house, any tactic and ane is so far for me... C Ronaldo..
A bit quiet again here today!
I'm not doubting his ability to get better - it's more the pride that I have about myself being a person who values a players adaptability & success in different teams, different tactics, in different leagues rather than just dominate when playing for one.
It's weird how people are willing to see Pep Guardiola like this but not the players.
Pep is one of the best managers ever, no one is doubting that - especially due to the way he has the ability to get his team play a certain style of stylish, controllable football.
Yet whilst he is no doubt one of the best ever, (I'm sure in the top 5 to most) it's harder (however not impossible) for people to make that next step up and call him the GOAT manager because his accomplishments at Bayern Munich and Man City have not been the expected level compared to what he did reach with Barcelona, the club that he grew up at and dominated with a core blending of his tactics and style.
If Pep does it (winning CL'S/hattricks) with City or another similair club like he did if ar Barca - then I'm sure people will more likely view him as the GOAT more easily like I would do to.
If Messi does it and accomplish his Barcelona level at Paris SG; .performing like how he used to and gets the trophies, I have no reason to not call him my GOAT.
However until then, The player who could do it anywhere, anytime, any house, any tactic and ane is so far for me... C Ronaldo..
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Incredibly poor goal record all considered. I didnt know what to expect, but better than this. Didnt watch the game though.
Poch seems out of depth as well. They are churning out points, but only with late winners and equalizers.
I get the criticism of PSG as a team, but they’re 12 points clear in the league I think? They’re undoubtedly going to win the league, most likely at a canter.
Messi being this shite is more surprising though. Doesn’t seem motivated / bothered to be honest.
Messi being this shite is more surprising though. Doesn’t seem motivated / bothered to be honest.
I didnt watch the game, but Messi got the motm award anyway so he couldnt have been that shit. He still needs to start scoring though
Its so funny that there are some here who are trying to convince themselves or are already convinced that winning the EPL with SAF’s greatest United team and winning the SerieA with Juventus were bigger achievements than winning the Spanish League with Valverde’s Barca against Simeone’s A.Madrid and Zidane’s Real or winning the treble under Enrique.
And they hide it under the guise of being able to do it in different leagues. Sure…in best in class clubs and under SAF (one of the GOATs)’s United and the 1 horse in the 1 horse league Juventus.
This is the same type of arguments used against Pep; greatest of all time Barca, 1 horse Bayern and ultra rich City, yet 1 league (the elite ones) SAF is considered GOAT here and understandably so.
Ok, waiting for the 1 liner no substance replies laced with personal insults, as usual
And they hide it under the guise of being able to do it in different leagues. Sure…in best in class clubs and under SAF (one of the GOATs)’s United and the 1 horse in the 1 horse league Juventus.
This is the same type of arguments used against Pep; greatest of all time Barca, 1 horse Bayern and ultra rich City, yet 1 league (the elite ones) SAF is considered GOAT here and understandably so.
Ok, waiting for the 1 liner no substance replies laced with personal insults, as usual
Places where Ronaldo can’t do it: the World CupMeh-ssi
A bit quiet again here today!
I'm not doubting his ability to get better - it's more the pride that I have about myself being a person who values a players adaptability & success in different teams, different tactics, in different leagues rather than just dominate when playing for one.
It's weird how people are willing to see Pep Guardiola like this but not the players.
Pep is one of the best managers ever, no one is doubting that - especially due to the way he has the ability to get his team play a certain style of stylish, controllable football.
Yet whilst he is no doubt one of the best ever, (I'm sure in the top 5 to most) it's harder (however not impossible) for people to make that next step up and call him the GOAT manager because his accomplishments at Bayern Munich and Man City have not been the expected level compared to what he did reach with Barcelona, the club that he grew up at and dominated with a core blending of his tactics and style.
If Pep does it (winning CL'S/hattricks) with City or another similair club like he did if ar Barca - then I'm sure people will more likely view him as the GOAT more easily like I would do to.
If Messi does it and accomplish his Barcelona level at Paris SG; .performing like how he used to and gets the trophies, I have no reason to not call him my GOAT.
However until then, The player who could do it anywhere, anytime, any house, any tactic and ane is so far for me... C Ronaldo..
Its fair to acknowledge that messi's goal record at psg is really poor. Then people can interpret that the way want.
Did it against the best teams in EuropePlaces where Ronaldo can’t do it: the World Cup
Compares to struggling against a Fred version of Brazil and Uruguay? Who else? Mexico with Javier Hernandez
I watched the game, he played pretty well.
Messi’s winning at PSG is the same as winning at Juve or Bayern; not worth mentioning. Whats more is messi is more than just goals, but ya his goal stats in PSG is poor.
Nothing to do with the narrative of “winning in all elite leagues” though. If an elite player were to go to prime barca/real, then juve, then bayern, then prime chelsea/united or current City, and lastly PSG, this player will win in all major leagues. Just good career choices, thats all
It’s poor in the league thus far but he’s their top scorer in the champions league.
Right so SAF'S greatest United team has nothing to do with Ronaldo! 
Acting like Diego Simeone's Atheltico is on the same level as the older version of Jose Mourinho's Chelsea, Wenger's Arsenal, Benitez's Liverpool and more accurately- the rest of the PL below the top 4 vs the rest of La Liga!
Acting like Diego Simeone's Atheltico is on the same level as the older version of Jose Mourinho's Chelsea, Wenger's Arsenal, Benitez's Liverpool and more accurately- the rest of the PL below the top 4 vs the rest of La Liga!
0 goals and 0 assists in the knockout rounds of the World Cup.Did it against the best teams in Europe
Compares to struggling against a Fred version of Brazil and Uruguay? Who else? Mexico with Javier Hernandez
Even so, his move to PSG is looking poorer by the day save a couple of games in the CL.
Totally expected Messi to struggle to get big numbers in Ligue 1 so I can't say I'm surprised.
This isn't a league where you're getting 20+ goals unless you are extremely pacy (which Messi is no more) or a striker in a system that creates lot of chances.
This isn't a league where you're getting 20+ goals unless you are extremely pacy (which Messi is no more) or a striker in a system that creates lot of chances.
Put aside the scoring stats from Messi at PSG, have many of you really watched him consistently ? He really has been underwhelming to say the least. There ain't a single pundit/ex pro who is satisfied with the content of his game regardless of stats.
As expected, this would be your reply. Ok picture this, is winning with SAF’s United against Mou’s Chelsea, Wenger’s Arsenal a bigger achievement than winning with Valverde’s Barca against Simeone’s A.Madrid and your favourite 3 peat Zidane’s Real with Ronaldo in it? We are talking about SAF and Valverde here.Right so SAF'S greatest United team has nothing to do with Ronaldo!
Acting like Diego Simeone's Atheltico is on the same level as the older version of Jose Mourinho's Chelsea, Wenger's Arsenal, Benitez's Liverpool and more accurately- the rest of the PL below the top 4 vs the rest of La Liga!
Try convincing yourself that Valverde is on the same level as SAF, and 3 peat zidane’s Real with CR7 is on a lower level than Wenger’s Arsenal. You will need a lot of convincing. Perhaps a smiley face would help
Worst ever post Ballon Dor winning season ever?
And what about Pochettino? A bit too hard for him now aswell? Did get to CL Final, so let's see if Messi can do it.
The thing is Ronaldo wasn't just able to show success at all his clubs, the guy scored goals for fun in his teams in every country he went and played against at - playing for a team with an English style vs English tactical style teams, playing for an Italian team vs Italian tactical style team, playing for a Spanish Style team vs Spansih style teams.
People kept acting that just because Messi did it against an English team whilst only playing for a Spanish team that this was the same thing.
Now people are seeing that Messi is a different player when playing outside of Barcelona - just like to so so many saw that he was a different Messi for Argentina compared to how be played for Barcelona.
Anyway, Let's first see if Messi can do it against Lorient, Lens, Lille or LOL!
Acting like your post is not expected and only mine is
one thing is for sure - his performances were not expected to be like this.During Valverde's two full seasons, Real Madrid got 76 (with Zidane) and 68 points (without him), and Atletico got 79 and 76 points. That amount of points hasn't won a league title since 2007. So what the hell are you talking about?
It took Ronaldo 2 whole years to become consistently good at Manchester United. I’m old enough to recall him being mocked by Baddiel and Skinner in a little skit they called ‘the Adventures of Cristiano Ronaldo.’ Check it out on YouTube if you missed it.And what about Pochettino? A bit too hard for him now aswell? Did get to CL Final, so let's see if Messi can do it.
The thing is Ronaldo wasn't just able to show success at all his clubs, the guy scored goals for fun in his teams in every country he went and played against at - playing for a team with an English style vs English tactical style teams, playing for an Italian team vs Italian tactical style team, playing for a Spanish Style team vs Spansih style teams.
People kept acting that just because Messi did it against an English team whilst only playing for a Spanish team that this was the same thing.
Now people are seeing that Messi is a different player when playing outside of Barcelona - just like to so so many saw that he was a different Messi for Argentina compared to how be played for Barcelona.
Anyway, Let's first see if Messi can do it against Lorient, Lens, Lille or LOL!
Acting like your post is not expected and only mine is
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