Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
You had no idea what you were on about and it was painfully obvious. You just came in this thread, quoted some random numbers that you thought would make Arsenal look good and United look bad then proceed to get put in your place. It was pretty pathetic.I'm not going on about it, people quoted it several times so I replied back, I swear people can't readNumber of posters? It was 1 conversation with 1 person. The rest of them just posted emojies with 0 input to the discussion.
And again, i've looked and read the financial reports. That's fine if people want to use them, but they include numbers for a great number more people, of which none of us have a single clue how they're broken down.
But rely on some shit twitter accounts and sites?I'm not repeating it, i'm saying why I posted it in the first place because someone mocked
I already told you my opinion for financial reports after I looked into it when you mentioned it. The financial report for United is for almost 1000 employees, whereas the first team mens squad is 30 people. I am fully aware that the first team contribute to a large amount of the total, but considering my point was about first team wages and transfer fees, i'd rather not look at a number which is given for 950 other people of which we have 0 clue how it's broken down or where it goes.
How much do you think average job at club is paid? Do you think they make up more than 50% of the wages club spends?
How is it painfully obvious. Some of you need to get a grip. I used the first thing I found for first team wages to get a comparison.
I don't need Arsenal to look good. I know we have reduced our wage budget, that's the whole point of our business recently.
Some of you dig into things for no reason..
I don't know what the directors are paid. I'm fully aware the average joe coach or cleaner isn't paid a lot, i'm not stupid mate.
Do you know how the other 950 people are United are paid and how it's broken down?
You have no clue how that financial report is broken down or where the rest of the money goes, nobody here does. Yet you mock me for using something which roughly indicates first team squad wages.
Again, for the 12th time, I am fully aware the values might not be correct, it was to show more the ratios.
It's a shame because I didn't mind the conversation with you, found it interesting, but your tone has just gone to mocking for no reason.
To be fair, even if you just use the official figures of Total Wage Bill for each club posted in club accounts earlier, you guys are £85M ahead of us for the season before last. I'm not sure adding Ronaldo, Varane & Sancho into the mix will make that any less for last season.
A pre season game on a waterlogged pitch
State on gooner fans.
Pogba, Matic, Mata, Cavani, Lingard all gone.
Wage bill will be massively reduced
In Arsenal financial report, director wages are reported separately.
I don't know where I mocked you, it's a plain text and it sounds exactly like how you read it.
I also explained you with examples why the press reported wages shouldn't be taken as truth but as usual you ignored that and came up with "Which player wages is wrong" as if press knows the details of base wages and bonuses, this is the press who still struggles with gross and net wages.
And also do you think Arsenal, City, Liverpool pay as just much (or close to and even less than) as clubs like Roma, Napoli, lazio, Milan?
The next set of financial results are for 2021-2022 season.
Pogba, Matic, Mata, Cavani, Lingard all gone.
Wage bill will be massively reduced
Ofcourse it's only ManUtd who added players, Arsenal didn't. Also it's not as if Manutd lost few players either.
We are ahead of Arsenal in wages spent, that also shows in the results. We finished 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 2nd, 6th in last 5 seasons. Where did Arsenal finish?
I don't think anyone argued we spend less than Arsenal, it's just that those numbers are bs and it's about time people stop using some shit sites to prove their point when official numbers are readily available.
I’m talking about the here and now. We also have Henderson off the books this season at Forest.
Our wage bill is fine so not sure why it’s even being mentioned?
I legit don’t understand why the United fanbase rates this guy so highly
223 goal contribution in the past 5 years. That is 44.6 goal/assist per season. Have some shame.
See above.
Is that not the point he's trying to make? That you can't just look at transfer fee spend and saying Arsenal spend the most, because accounts tend to use the ammoritisation of transfer fee and wages over the length of a player contract do they not?
It's obvious for anyone, he was called out for using some shit source to back his point where it says we spend close to 50% more than ManCity which is obviously bs.
The official numbers for the first team mens squad are not readily available. If they were, fair enough.
The total number for 950 employees for United, or 450 employees for City, are available. If you want to use those, I understand why completely.
But for the fact my post was purely to compare the ratio of wages between the top 6 for the first team squad, both sets of data are equally as good or bad and have flaws.
But, again people are missing the point. My point was that yes, on paper we've spent a lot of money on transfer fees recently. But, we've also drastically reduced our wage bill the past 2 seasons, and we've been targeting players for a bit higher fees, but lower wages, so looking purely at transfer fees isn't entirely fair. If some of you guys want to somehow turn that into some strange debate or argument, go ahead.
Right so let me get it straight. He didnt get pens and the like but still outperformed Odegard.
10 goals 13 assists v 7 goals 5 assists
Add to that he was one of the best chance creators last season along with Trent and Salah.
It was literally the first source I found when I looked it up. There was no agenda there, it was top of the list.
Again, is it BS? You have 10-12 more first team players than City, and you do pay high wages. Why would it be entirely BS? You also have Ronaldo, who most likely earns more than anyone else in the league.
Ofcourse it is BS if you assume City players are not paid good wages or ManUtd pay 50% more than ManCity.
Maybe you think City's goal keeping coach, groundsmen are paid awesome wages so that Mancity somehow magically became highest paid team in the league.
If you want to use the ratio, go ahead and use official numbers, not the numbers pulled from someone's arse by a teenager who had enough money to pay for a server.
If you have reduced wage bill, that will reflect in your team's financial report when they publish it. Also since Arsenal have not played in CL like forever, I would be surprised if they are on very high wages.
You have repeated "we've been targeting players for a bit higher fees, but lower wages" this some many times, I don't understand how those are even related. If you paid 50 million or 5 million for White, he will ask for what he thinks he is worth. Or just because White asks for lower wages, doesn't mean you were generous to pay big transfer fee.
The numbers he used were maybe not accurate, but that wasn't the point in his post. It was that you just can't use transfer fee spend in your argument about who spends the most. Forget the source or figures.
When the mistake was pointed out, he kept repeating "No one is challenging my posts' which is weird when you already used wrong numbers from shit source. And now he is doubling down on that, weird.
Also I don't get all this from Arsenal fans, did anyone deny that Arsenal spent less than other clubs in wages? Not sure why you people are getting defensive. Arsenal spent what they spent, wages is a different issue as it depends on lot of factors and bonuses.
I'm getting defensive because people are mocking
When you originally challanged my point I wasn't defensive at all because it was a valid point. But people posting emojies with no contribution or just saying it's stupid, obviously i'll get defensive.
I still don't understand why you don't get it. The conversation beforehand was about how Arsenal have spent a load of money on fees. My point is we should be looking at overall packages rather than just fees. That's it.
And yes it does matter. There is a reason we aren't trying to sign anyone on a free transfer, or any player who is already paid high wages. We don't want to bloat our wage bill again.
It's the same reason I never thought we'd be in for Gnabry (also that he wouldn't come probably). Because we'd never pay that wage for a player atm, it defeats what we've tried to do.
Instead we are paying higher fees for players at lower clubs who are on less wages it seems. Jesus was the exception and one of the higher wage players we'll target.
My point was that you can look at White as being expensive, but when you factor in his wage, his overall package isn't too bad over his contract length compared to someone who might cost less upfront, but has a much bigger wage.
I meant why are you people getting defensive when people say Arsenal spent 100 million or whatever under Arteta. Everyone knows Arsenal are not among the highest paid teams in wages, no need to pull numbers from shit sources to prove that. Official numbers already says that.I'm getting defensive because people are mocking
When you originally challanged my point I wasn't defensive at all because it was a valid point. But people posting emojies with no contribution or just saying it's stupid, obviously i'll get defensive.
I still don't understand why you don't get it. The conversation beforehand was about how Arsenal have spent a load of money on fees. My point is we should be looking at overall packages rather than just fees. That's it.
And yes it does matter. There is a reason we aren't trying to sign anyone on a free transfer, or any player who is already paid high wages. We don't want to bloat our wage bill again.
It's the same reason I never thought we'd be in for Gnabry (also that he wouldn't come probably). Because we'd never pay that wage for a player atm, it defeats what we've tried to do.
Instead we are paying higher fees for players at lower clubs who are on less wages it seems. Jesus was the exception and one of the higher wage players we'll target.
My point was that you can look at White as being expensive, but when you factor in his wage, his overall package isn't too bad over his contract length compared to someone who might cost less upfront, but has a much bigger wage.
So if Ben white cost 10 million, his wages would have been higher? Reason you are not paying high wages is, you are signing players who are yet to make significant impact for their club teams or at high level. One exception you posted and he was the player who made impact at high level. This is not some magical formula, like high transfer fee means low wages or something like that. You have just signed players who haven't made the level of impact like other players who are on high wages did.
It might work out like in FM or it might turn out to be like Daily Mail's prediction "you can't believe what England team will look in 10 years" naming unproven players.
I think the point he’s making is not that high transfer fees automatically equal low wages. It’s that we’ve targeted talented prospects who have yet to enter their prime who have wage demands within our budget. The selling clubs naturally charge a premium for this.
So if anything, it’s the other way round. You’re right, Ben White’s wage demands are not dictated by his transfer fee. Rather, his somewhat inflated transfer fee is the result of Brighton knowing White’s wage demands will be within Arsenal’s reach.
It actually looks like you're in agreement.
Oh i'm not overly bothered by the fact we've spent money, i'm just pointing out it's not that straightforward really.
And again, no you are missing the point..
My point is we are targeting some players from clubs who don't really need to sell and we are prepared to pay a bit more of an upfront fee, as long as the wage package isn't too high. Yes your point is right, and that is my point to a degree.
We have stepped away from targetting higher profile players who might have a lower transfer fee because they're out of contract or because they're free agents, but they're on massive wages.
Brighton didn't need to sell White, but we paid £50m for him because the value of him over his contract length was worth it. But people just look at the £50m and think it's massive.
The same people who thought Varane was a great deal but ignore his big wages. Or again the same people who scream for us to go in for Gnabry ignoring the fact it would undo what we've been trying to do.
I'm not saying the approach we've taken will be a guaranteed success, but it's just something different which we are trying.
I agree with that point and that's what I said. Arsenal pay low wages as they are signing players who are yet to prove or make impact at high level.
It's all simple points, I don't know why few are making it so complicated.
Arsenal spent good money on transfer fee? Yes
Do Arsenal spend good money on wages? Yes but it's less than Manutd, City, Chelsea, liverpool, maybe Spurs too.
Are they signing proven players? Except couple, they are targeting younger players.
It's all simple points. No need to do lot of mental gymnastics to prove ManUtd are paying 50% more than ManCity or some "simple, lets make it interesting' formula.
You seem more annoyed at this part than anything else.
I don't know why Varane and White is compared, one has won more Champions leagues than most clubs and a world cup, everything as a starting player. Other one has barely proved himself as high level player. Ofcourse Varane would cost much more in wages, that's how it works. You have already seen it with Jesus compared to your other signings.
Anyways that's a minor point for his discussion but its amazing how people act ignorant on why few players cost more in wages.
Regarding your other point, I more or less agree. I said same in other post too. It's just the sources you used and the way you made point was wrong. Arsenal are looking at different profile of players, something as a club and Arteta is comfortable with, that's the thing that matters most.
Oh pardon me for pointing out mistakes.You seem more annoyed at this part than anything else.
Also sort of typical argument in this thread(And Maguire thread too, didn't know mrs maguire was on caf), ignore all the main points and hang on to smaller irrelevant ones.
I don’t consider Mario Jardel a great of the game
A good read for Edu's work in Arsenal.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...th-mikel-arteta-and-why-only-trophies-will-do
https://www.skysports.com/football/...th-mikel-arteta-and-why-only-trophies-will-do
But literally the only one who even commented on that was United fans. I couldn't care less how much United pay compared to City. My point was relative to Arsenal only.. There was no agenda to make it sound like United pay a lot more than the rest of the top 6, I really don't care about that so not sure why you're making it a thing?
For Varane vs White, it's only relevant as the start of last year there were countless posts comparing the two and the transfer fees and people mocking us saying we paid £50m for White when Varane was 35m or whatever. And at the time I said yes, we paid the higher fee, but we're paying substantially less wages (I agree it's for a reason), but it means the overall package for White is far less than Varane (as it should be as in theory he's not as good a player).
You're acting like I am stupid at times, i'm not mate. I am fully aware why Varane is paid more in wages, as you say it's not that difficult to understand. But, people tend to just completely ignore wages when it comes to a teams spend. Whereas my overall point was that it is a factor which shouldn't be ignored.
Anyway i'm out of posts. I have nothing against you at all, was an interesting chat. But, I just feel you're getting way to hung up on some random fine points rather than what my overall point was.
I already said I agree with your overall point, anyways there is nothing much to add.
Arsenal transfer chief Edu has spoken about ditching negotiations to sign a Borussia Dortmund player due to his attitude.
“Face to face — I go there, I meet the player, if I have to travel to Germany, anywhere. I want to see the player, the agent, the family, put everyone together and say, ‘Guys, listen to me and what I want to say’,” he told The Athletic.
“And then I sell what we are doing, our project. Because it works both ways, doesn’t it? I want to show them, but I want to see as well if they want to enjoy because if I smell something wrong (then) thank you very much, I go (and don’t sign them).
“I faced an experience like this, for a player in Dortmund. I started to talk to them, engage the player, talk to the family, but always, ‘Yeah, but what about my contract?’.
“I said, ‘Listen, I want to understand first if you engage with this, if you like this. If you like it, I can talk, but not the opposite side’. ‘Ah no, let’s talk about the money…’ No, no, no, no. And one day, I said to the agent: ‘Guys, thank you very much, it’s not what I want to do’. Boom.”
“Face to face — I go there, I meet the player, if I have to travel to Germany, anywhere. I want to see the player, the agent, the family, put everyone together and say, ‘Guys, listen to me and what I want to say’,” he told The Athletic.
“And then I sell what we are doing, our project. Because it works both ways, doesn’t it? I want to show them, but I want to see as well if they want to enjoy because if I smell something wrong (then) thank you very much, I go (and don’t sign them).
“I faced an experience like this, for a player in Dortmund. I started to talk to them, engage the player, talk to the family, but always, ‘Yeah, but what about my contract?’.
“I said, ‘Listen, I want to understand first if you engage with this, if you like this. If you like it, I can talk, but not the opposite side’. ‘Ah no, let’s talk about the money…’ No, no, no, no. And one day, I said to the agent: ‘Guys, thank you very much, it’s not what I want to do’. Boom.”
Long summary of that Athletic interview shamelessly stolen from r/gunners :
He's really saying all the right things and doesn't sugar coat anything about our previous situation (80% of bloaters on high wages) which United could relate to. You might not need as such a drastic turnover as us but a lot of heads needs to roll to be back in a healthy situation.
Let's hope they can get results out of this plan and get into the CL this year.
Summary:
So, how many players with that kind of characteristics did we have in the past? Eighty per cent of the squad. That’s why I said to them when I made my plan: ‘Guys, it’s not easy to clean the squad straight away because most of the players have a two, three or four-year contract’.”
“Tell me how many players in the squad we have with those (negative) characteristics today,” he says. “I can tell you, next summer, have a look at the valuation of the players we have, the age of the group that we have, and the salaries that we have today. Now, as part of the plan, we create value in our players today.”
“I felt in some important moments we needed players like the players we are signing today ... I’m not saying we don’t have a (good) squad, but we need a bigger squad with personalities, with some behaviours, that say, ‘I don’t lose that game. I will kill someone but I don’t lose the game’. I think we’ve added some more players with that kind of character"
“That’s why I was really, really hurt when I arrived. I said, ‘That’s not the mentality of this football club. What’s happening? Everybody’s comfortable, everybody’s OK…’
“F*ck you, ‘OK’. ‘OK?!’ No, I don’t want to lose games, we have to be there again. And I want to see the physios, I want to see the scouting, I want to see everyone with that kind of feeling, where you say, ‘F*cking hell, now we are going to really go for things’. And I think we are changing. Again, it doesn’t happen overnight, but I think we are changing and putting some good mentality in the squad. Characters.”
“For example, Raphinha was clear — and Deco is my close friend — he wants to go to Barcelona. That is his dream. So I said, ‘Thank you very much’.”
(Edu is asked about the apparent delay in finalising the deal.)
"It’s normal. We’re going to sit and put all the expectations in the right place. Our expectations and his, his family and his agent’s expectations, and put everything together. The main thing is how he feels, how he feels comfortable with us. He’s happy, we’re happy, so it’s just: sit down and find a solution.”
“For example, let’s talk about next season or another. If we sell, I don’t know, Bukayo Saka — that’s not going to happen but it’s just an example — we as a club have to prepare his replacement straight away. So someone has to be in the squad or we have to manage the market well so, if we sell him, we have someone straight away to replace him in our model.”
- Edu stresses the importance of the fact that there is a long term plan that he considers as having started upon the sacking of Emery. He went to the board with his plan and the change of direction from a quick fix under Unai to a long term setup under Arteta
- Says Arteta bought into the long term operation straight away and that was crucial
- He was hired after Emery but considered the need to change very quickly
- Wants Arsenal to begin to ramp up in 2022/23 and expects to get UCL this year
- Talks about signing older players like Luiz and Willian to bridge the cap to the current young team, admits it didn't work as intended
- Edu on… ‘cleaning’ the squad:
So, how many players with that kind of characteristics did we have in the past? Eighty per cent of the squad. That’s why I said to them when I made my plan: ‘Guys, it’s not easy to clean the squad straight away because most of the players have a two, three or four-year contract’.”
- Edu says he'd rather sell a player for a lower fee than try to increase their value for a year and have it affect competitive goals and/or the dressing room if they underperform
- Calls the decisions to pay off players to leave "investments".
- Again stresses that players older than 27 will only decrease in value
- Arteta and Edu have tried to instigate cultural change and have effectively decided there may be a financial price to pay for that
- Edu claims the core of the squad is now very valuable and the low returns will improve soon
“Tell me how many players in the squad we have with those (negative) characteristics today,” he says. “I can tell you, next summer, have a look at the valuation of the players we have, the age of the group that we have, and the salaries that we have today. Now, as part of the plan, we create value in our players today.”
- Edu believes Arteta will be Arsenal manager for at least three more years, hence the long contract. Claims this long term approach is a factor in attracting the big names like Jesus
- Edu on missing top 4:
“I felt in some important moments we needed players like the players we are signing today ... I’m not saying we don’t have a (good) squad, but we need a bigger squad with personalities, with some behaviours, that say, ‘I don’t lose that game. I will kill someone but I don’t lose the game’. I think we’ve added some more players with that kind of character"
- On installing a winning mentality since his and Artetas arrival in 2019:
“That’s why I was really, really hurt when I arrived. I said, ‘That’s not the mentality of this football club. What’s happening? Everybody’s comfortable, everybody’s OK…’
“F*ck you, ‘OK’. ‘OK?!’ No, I don’t want to lose games, we have to be there again. And I want to see the physios, I want to see the scouting, I want to see everyone with that kind of feeling, where you say, ‘F*cking hell, now we are going to really go for things’. And I think we are changing. Again, it doesn’t happen overnight, but I think we are changing and putting some good mentality in the squad. Characters.”
- Edu's strategy on convincing players to come involves travelling to them to talk. Meets the player, the agent and even the family to sell the project.
- Can tell if a player is not interested or won't be committed and will cut the deal then and there
- Edu on missing targets such as Raphinha:
“For example, Raphinha was clear — and Deco is my close friend — he wants to go to Barcelona. That is his dream. So I said, ‘Thank you very much’.”
- Last summer Arsenal had a free run at most of their targets but this year competition is much more intense, as seen in the Martinez deal. But Arsenal quickly pivoted to Zinchenko and wrapped it up ASAP.
- Edu says that the profile of player in the squad was more important than reducing salaries. When a player on a big salary performs, there's no issue.
- Big earners with bad attitudes or underperforming will quickly be cut. Auba, Kolasinac and Ozil are cited.
- On Saka:
(Edu is asked about the apparent delay in finalising the deal.)
"It’s normal. We’re going to sit and put all the expectations in the right place. Our expectations and his, his family and his agent’s expectations, and put everything together. The main thing is how he feels, how he feels comfortable with us. He’s happy, we’re happy, so it’s just: sit down and find a solution.”
- Arteta and Edu both believe Saka is happy at Arsenal, and there are no public contradictions to this idea
- On eventually having to sell players:
“For example, let’s talk about next season or another. If we sell, I don’t know, Bukayo Saka — that’s not going to happen but it’s just an example — we as a club have to prepare his replacement straight away. So someone has to be in the squad or we have to manage the market well so, if we sell him, we have someone straight away to replace him in our model.”
He's really saying all the right things and doesn't sugar coat anything about our previous situation (80% of bloaters on high wages) which United could relate to. You might not need as such a drastic turnover as us but a lot of heads needs to roll to be back in a healthy situation.
Let's hope they can get results out of this plan and get into the CL this year.
So basically Edu is low balling the player and ain't happy the player wants to talk about the money and he should be itching to join the mid table club that is arsenal because it's Arsenal and this amazing project that him and Arteta are working on involving limping about in the league in Europa League to conference to not even Europe spots.
Total puff piece
A move for Cody Gakpo seems very unlikely this late in the window, unless Arsenal offers huge money to PSV which everyone knows it won't happen. PSV won't have enough time to find a replacement. Pepe will probably stay this season.