Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

VP89

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But what I said is they need top class DM & top class creative player. And guess what happened now? They didn't sign top class creative player and they are struggling now, 1 goal & 0 open play goal in 5 league games. It's fact, you shouldn't be arguing with fact.
I also agreed with them needing to get a DM even as a priority, so there was never a debate on that. They signed a central defender because it was a bigger priority. And as many, many have eluded to here, their approach to games is not reflective of the creative talent Arteta already has. The current league predicament isn't that Arteta doesn't have the tools to be more expansive in games, it's that he has tipped the balance too far in one direction.

Let's move on from this now. I told you they will need to prioritize on CB and CDM and that's what they did. Yes they also need a creator but not at the cost of the former 2 positions, and that's pretty much how their summer business paid off.
 

sugar_kane

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VP89

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BBC - Gunners have stalled but don't doubt Mikel Arteta

What has Mikel Arteta done that Ole hasn't to impress bitter ex-scouse bastard Danny Murphy so much?
Arteta is only 1 year in the process, and has has shown he deserves time in the spell he's had so far. He's won an FA Cup (dispatching of Chelsea and City no less in Semi + Finals), he's made the team more resolute and he has brought players in that look to fit the mentality they are after. Also just looking at yesterdays result, 0-0 to Leeds who matched Liverpool and City on the pitch is not a bad result when you have 10 men.

Ole is 2 years in the process, and there was much praise for him for finishing 3rd in the league by the media so you should remember this before complaining.
The current doubt toward him is a result of him showing regression in his development, despite being in the job for double the time (2 years) and spending multiples more on top.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I also agreed with them needing to get a DM even as a priority, so there was never a debate on that. They signed a central defender because it was a bigger priority. And as many, many have eluded to here, their approach to games is not reflective of the creative talent Arteta already has. The current league predicament isn't that Arteta doesn't have the tools to be more expansive in games, it's that he has tipped the balance too far in one direction.

Let's move on from this now. I told you they will need to prioritize on CB and CDM and that's what they did. Yes they also need a creator but not at the cost of the former 2 positions, and that's pretty much how their summer business paid off.
1 goal in the last 5 league games, 0 open play goal in the last 5 league games. It tells you how much they need top class creative player. You can't argue with fact mate. CB will not improve that creative department.
 

sugar_kane

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Arteta is only 1 year in the process, and has has shown he deserves time in the spell he's had so far. He's won an FA Cup (dispatching of Chelsea and City no less in Semi + Finals), he's made the team more resolute and he has brought players in that look to fit the mentality they are after. Also just looking at yesterdays result, 0-0 to Leeds who matched Liverpool and City on the pitch is not a bad result when you have 10 men.

Ole is 2 years in the process, and there was much praise for him for finishing 3rd in the league by the media so you should remember this before complaining.
The current doubt toward him is a result of him showing regression in his development, despite being in the job for double the time (2 years) and spending multiples more on top.
I must have missed that, all I seem to recall is hearing about how many points off Liverpool we finished and how we owed everything to the Bruno signing.
 

romufc

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Arteta is only 1 year in the process, and has has shown he deserves time in the spell he's had so far. He's won an FA Cup (dispatching of Chelsea and City no less in Semi + Finals), he's made the team more resolute and he has brought players in that look to fit the mentality they are after. Also just looking at yesterdays result, 0-0 to Leeds who matched Liverpool and City on the pitch is not a bad result when you have 10 men.

Ole is 2 years in the process, and there was much praise for him for finishing 3rd in the league by the media so you should remember this before complaining.
The current doubt toward him is a result of him showing regression in his development, despite being in the job for double the time (2 years) and spending multiples more on top.
They also got beat 4-1 by Palace.

What praise? Lampard was in contention for manager of season finishing 4th, can you show where this Ole praise was from the media?
 

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The thing is though, he hasn't even made them more solid, it's a myth. Martinez managed to go from a serial loan army player to earning a big money transfer with a months worth of performances, if the defense were that good he wouldn't have had the chance to make such a big career jump so quickly. Most of their "battling" results (like yesterday) have come because of Leno/Emi, not outstanding defensive displays.
Exactly. What's staggering to me is Arteta doesnt seem to know how to defend when on the front foot. As soon as they show any attacking intent they fall to pieces defensively.
They will struggle all season against Leeds, Villa, Brighton type sides. Teams who move the ball well but arent big enough to justify putting 10 behind the ball and shit housing it to Auba on the counter.
I guarentee that Arteta would Old Trafford these sides if it wasn't for the optics and shame of it all. Thats why they played a bit better after the red, the shame of parking the bus v Leeds had gone.
 

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Judging by some comments here and in the media I thought he was going to revolutionise football.
 

Dancfc

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Arteta is only 1 year in the process, and has has shown he deserves time in the spell he's had so far. He's won an FA Cup (dispatching of Chelsea and City no less in Semi + Finals), he's made the team more resolute and he has brought players in that look to fit the mentality they are after. Also just looking at yesterdays result, 0-0 to Leeds who matched Liverpool and City on the pitch is not a bad result when you have 10 men.

Ole is 2 years in the process, and there was much praise for him for finishing 3rd in the league by the media so you should remember this before complaining.
The current doubt toward him is a result of him showing regression in his development, despite being in the job for double the time (2 years) and spending multiples more on top.
The FA Cup is a decent achievement in isolation but means jack all in the grand scheme of things, look at the list of manager's that have won domestic cups this millennium, full of average dross there.
 

romufc

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The FA Cup is a decent achievement in isolation but means jack all in the grand scheme of things, look at the list of manager's that have won domestic cups this millennium, full of average dross there.
This.

I dont understand how him winning an FA cup is such a big thing. Does this mean if Lampard won it instead of Arteta, people would rate Lampard more than they do now ?

It came down to a 90 mins game between them. Really, most clubs are not bothered about those cups, for Manutd and Chelsea only 2 trophies matter really that is the Cl and PL.
 

Gasolin

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Arteta is playing 8-0-2 really. And that's a process. I think he has clear ideas but it's going to take a while for them to be able to implement it. That's really what this is about.
 

Ajax Forever

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There were high hopes for Arsenal fans after Arteta had been heralded Pep 2.0. But, alas, he turns out to be Emery 2.0 :D
 

GoonerBear

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Exactly. What's staggering to me is Arteta doesnt seem to know how to defend when on the front foot. As soon as they show any attacking intent they fall to pieces defensively.
They will struggle all season against Leeds, Villa, Brighton type sides. Teams who move the ball well but arent big enough to justify putting 10 behind the ball and shit housing it to Auba on the counter.
I guarentee that Arteta would Old Trafford these sides if it wasn't for the optics and shame of it all. Thats why they played a bit better after the red, the shame of parking the bus v Leeds had gone.
Think it's difficult to judge him before hes able to put his best team out in a regular occasion. He went with a more offensive formation yesterday, but had to do so with a midfield of Xhaka & Ceballos, who are unathletic & struggle to cover the ground, which is precisely the reason why he changed formation in the first place!

I want to see a 433 with Partey / Elneny in midfield. I want to see that team with Saka & Martinelli as 2 of the forward thinking players. I want them to make an addition of someone like Szoboszlai in the winter. This is nowhere near the set of players Arteta wants to play, & people need to remember that.
 

VP89

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1 goal in the last 5 league games, 0 open play goal in the last 5 league games. It tells you how much they need top class creative player. You can't argue with fact mate. CB will not improve that creative department.
As I've already said, their failure in the last 5 league games is not a reflection of quality Arteta actually has in creative areas. We all know he has tools to do better in the creative space without needing to buy anyone just yet. Auba, Laca, Pepe, Ceballos, Saka are all capable of better than this and it comes down to the manager to balance the style of play better than the conservative approach he's taken.
The fact is, I said their priority areas are in defence and midfield, and they went out and spent exactly where they were expected to. And you are now just arguing rubbish for the sake of it.
I must have missed that, all I seem to recall is hearing about how many points off Liverpool we finished and how we owed everything to the Bruno signing.
That was around 18 months into Ole's job (compared to 1 year with Arteta) and even then you are cherry picking. Not a single pundit really came out and said Ole should be sacked and all that's happening with Arteta is the same pundits pointing to his FA Cup, pointing to improvements in the mentality and saying the same. That he needs time. Get over it, there's no conspiracy here.
They also got beat 4-1 by Palace.

What praise? Lampard was in contention for manager of season finishing 4th, can you show where this Ole praise was from the media?
We lost 3-1 to Palace. In fact we lost back to back with Palace under Ole. One after 6 months in charge, one after almost 2 years in charge. What's your point?

And if you're all set on trying to find praise for Arteta that's undeserved can you point to it? The best people find is Danny Murphy saying don't go over the top, it's going to be up and down for a new manager and he's improved a lot about the side.
People were all saying the same with Ole, that he needs time, he needs windows, he needs to embed the philosophy at the club - you can go back to similar MOTD or pundit analysis from Nov 2019 just to check if you really want to.
The FA Cup is a decent achievement in isolation but means jack all in the grand scheme of things, look at the list of manager's that have won domestic cups this millennium, full of average dross there.
Sure if you were to isolate my post as just an FA Cup then it means less. But as I said he's improved the aggressiveness and intent of the team, he's got players that improve the mentality of the squad and he's building from bottom up, which will take time. He's taken the scalp of some big teams whether its Chelsea, United or City and now he needs to look at utilizing his forwards better than he has.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he's free from any criticism - he's actually too passive this season. But it's odd this thread is massively bumped after Leeds, where he played with 10 men + reacted in a bullish manner by continuing to try and create chances whilst leaving gaping chances at the other end. It's also 9 games in the new season where every team is off the boil going forward at times, so there's an element of you know, chilling the feck out before posters go labeling him as Tuny Pulis.
An exotic and better looking Tony Pulis.
Like this chap.
 

romufc

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We lost 3-1 to Palace. In fact we lost back to back with Palace under Ole. One after 6 months in charge, one after almost 2 years in charge. What's your point?

And if you're all set on trying to find praise for Arteta that's undeserved can you point to it? The best people find is Danny Murphy saying don't go over the top, it's going to be up and down for a new manager and he's improved a lot about the side.
People were all saying the same with Ole, that he needs time, he needs windows, he needs to embed the philosophy at the club - you can go back to similar MOTD or pundit analysis from Nov 2019 just to check if you really want to.
my point is just because they drew 0-0 to Leeds who done well against Liverpool and City does not mean they are some special team.

People were saying the same? i did not hear one bit of Ole praise last November, he was almost out of his job actually. No one ever expected or wanted Ole to do well including some of the fan base.
 

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Even if they'd sack Arteta they have nowhere to go. Probably can't afford Allegri so it would be some average coach from La Liga or one of Joorabchian's clients.
 

VP89

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my point is just because they drew 0-0 to Leeds who done well against Liverpool and City does not mean they are some special team.

People were saying the same? i did not hear one bit of Ole praise last November, he was almost out of his job actually. No one ever expected or wanted Ole to do well including some of the fan base.
I didn't say they were a special team, and no one is praising Arteta right now. They are saying he needs time and he's building something, and that he's shown progress which he definitively has by winning the FA Cup. Like it or not it's one of the barometers of success for a manager, and the fact he was able to beat big teams in the quest for the cup, and beat big teams this season too, shows that he's on the right track.

Show me an article right now that praises Arteta as a manager after Leeds. All I see are people coming out that say he needs time, and you'll get up and downs and nows not the time to doubt a new manager after just 1 year in charge. And by the way, the same was reported for Ole when he was diabolical in the start of last season - he needs time, he showed progress last season, there will be ups and downs etc.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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As I've already said, their failure in the last 5 league games is not a reflection of quality Arteta actually has in creative areas. We all know he has tools to do better in the creative space without needing to buy anyone just yet. Auba, Laca, Pepe, Ceballos, Saka are all capable of better than this and it comes down to the manager to balance the style of play better than the conservative approach he's taken.
The fact is, I said their priority areas are in defence and midfield, and they went out and spent exactly where they were expected to. And you are now just arguing rubbish for the sake of it.
Average tools is different to top quality tools.

Willian is 32 and his highest number of assists in his career per season was 7 league assists. Saka highest number of assists in his career was 5 league assists. Ceballos highest number of assists was 2 league assists. The three of Auba, Laca & Pepe are goalscorer rather than creative player.

None of those players are as creative as what United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs & City got. These five teams have much more creative players that can produce high numbers like above 10, 15 or even 20 league assists per season. Compare to what the five teams have, what arsenal have are below the standard and average, that’s why they are struggling now. 1 goals in 5 league games reflects to it, fact!
 

VP89

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Average tools is different to top quality tools.

Willian is 32 and his highest number of assists in his career per season was 7 league assists. Saka highest number of assists in his career was 5 league assists. Ceballos highest number of assists was 2 league assists. The three of Auba, Laca & Pepe are goalscorer rather than creative player.

None of those players are as creative as what United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs & City got. These five teams have much more creative players that can produce high numbers like above 10, 15 or even 20 league assists per season. Compare to what the five teams have, what arsenal have are below the standard and average, that’s why they are struggling now. 1 goals in 5 league games reflects to it, fact!
You're getting tiresome. I never said they don't need a creative outlet whatsoever, I said their creative players (even Laca/Auba/Saka who are creative as well as goalscorers) have a lesser gap in quality compared to their defenders and defensive midfielders. I told you early on in the season that's where they will target, and that's exactly what they did. Your pipedream idea of them gunning for Grealish was never likely, please move on.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You're getting tiresome. I never said they don't need a creative outlet whatsoever, I said their creative players (even Laca/Auba/Saka who are creative as well as goalscorers) have a lesser gap in quality compared to their defenders and defensive midfielders. I told you early on in the season that's where they will target, and that's exactly what they did. Your pipedream idea of them gunning for Grealish was never likely, please move on.
But the fact is that they are struggling in creativity department with their current players, it’s fact, you can’t argue with 1 goals in 5 league games. CB & DM alone won’t improve the creative department, not rocket science.

However, both top quality DM & top quality creative player can and would have improve both the defense & the creative department.
 

VP89

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But the fact is that they are struggling in creativity department with their current players, it’s fact, you can’t argue with 1 goals in 5 league games. CB & DM alone won’t improve the creative department, not rocket science.

However, both top quality DM & top quality creative player can and would have improve both the defense & the creative department.
But as stated before, they have enough quality to create more chances than they have already, so it's not just because they didn't sign a creative outlet.

I agree with last segment for sure but they probably saw more of a player in Gabriel than an alternative 25m creative player. Perhaps it's an intention to go for auoar in January, who knows. It's been one window and if the right player isn't available then it's not uncommon to wait. We did this in Ole's first window as we filled defensive areas before considering a sancho pursuit or a similar right winger.
 

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But as stated before, they have enough quality to create more chances than they have already, so it's not just because they didn't sign a creative outlet.

I agree with last segment for sure but they probably saw more of a player in Gabriel than an alternative 25m creative player. Perhaps it's an intention to go for auoar in January, who knows. It's been one window and if the right player isn't available then it's not uncommon to wait. We did this in Ole's first window as we filled defensive areas before considering a sancho pursuit or a similar right winger.
That’s not enough. If you want enough then go look at United, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool & city creative players. The fact is they are struggling with creative department right now and would have been better with top quality DM & top quality creative player last summer.
 

anant

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I love how people on here are defending Arteta and comparing his first few months to Ole. Like it or not, this time last year, under Ole we were struggling because of injuries and despite that, while our results did not reflect it, we were not playing badly - for example we were much better than Southampton in that 1-1, better than wolves in that 1-1 and probably deserved atleast a point at WHU (And I'm referring to just the 1st 9 games).

Hell, our xGD after 9 games last season was 5.62 compared to Arsenal this season which is -1.57. Go back to all the posts at this time last year and our fans were of the opinion Ole is a shit manager and should be sacked, however, those same people are now saying Arteta is doing a better job.

And remember, Arsenal and the likes are able to play this way because there aren't any fans in the stadium. If there were any fans, they'd be getting booed on a weekly basis
 

Brwned

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Think it's difficult to judge him before hes able to put his best team out in a regular occasion. He went with a more offensive formation yesterday, but had to do so with a midfield of Xhaka & Ceballos, who are unathletic & struggle to cover the ground, which is precisely the reason why he changed formation in the first place!

I want to see a 433 with Partey / Elneny in midfield. I want to see that team with Saka & Martinelli as 2 of the forward thinking players. I want them to make an addition of someone like Szoboszlai in the winter. This is nowhere near the set of players Arteta wants to play, & people need to remember that.
Most managers don't have the team they want to play with though. That's just the nature of limited resources. Lampard got many of the players from his wishlist this summer but he could still point out a number if flaws in his team, and last year he got them playing great football despite having a number of obvious holes in the team. Arteta is afforded many more excuses.
 

The Purley King

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What happened to Saliba? Didn't he cost £30m? Did they really have to sign another CB?
I think Arteta will struggle because you can only play the way City does in midfield when you have Silva, KDB, BernadoS etc. Try to play the same way with Elneny, Xhaka and Willock and see what you get. Not including Ceballos in that group, I quite like him as a player.
 

sugar_kane

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That was around 18 months into Ole's job (compared to 1 year with Arteta) and even then you are cherry picking. Not a single pundit really came out and said Ole should be sacked and all that's happening with Arteta is the same pundits pointing to his FA Cup, pointing to improvements in the mentality and saying the same. That he needs time. Get over it, there's no conspiracy here.
These articles are all from one website (The Guardian)

Ole Gunnar Solskjær is not the right manager for Manchester United
Solskjær’s game of patience at Manchester United is running out of time
Manchester United must be tempted to look at Jürgen Klopp and wonder: what if?
Solskjær’s rebuild talk cannot mask Manchester United’s sense of drift
Ole Gunnar Solskjær and the credibility conundrum at Manchester United
Obsession with past leaves Solskjær’s United stuck in a footballing Pompeii
Solskjær needs to be more than just not-Mourinho at Manchester United
Ole Gunnar Solskjær needs to be more than high priest of Fergianity

same author as half those articles above (Jonathan WIlson)

Mikel Arteta’s act of faith at Arsenal instils belief and purpose
Arsenal display more reason for optimism than they have had for years

I mean maybe the conclusion is Jonathan Wilson is an ABU shithead, in which case I'd be happy enough to leave it at that.
 

VP89

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Johnathon Wilson is a dick, in fairness from what I recall.

But as I say, Arteta is still being held to account, if I pull the same outlet and take a reaction to yesterdays game:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...eaves-arsenal-still-searching-for-an-identity
"What Arsenal lack is an identity, a heartbeat, a way to make you care about them. Arteta may be a fine technical and tactical coach but on some level still comes across as stern, sterile, bloodless, the first-time manager still finding his feet and the former player still trying to establish boundaries."

It doesn't look like he's getting any favorable treatment or praise. He's being scrutinized as much as any manager would. He's getting the same questions as Ole would have on team selection, with some outlets feeling they know better, like this for example: https://theathletic.com/2185988/2020/11/09/willian-aubameyang-arteta/
 

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It’s hard to judge Arteta at this point although not picking Ozil in his squad could and should be questioned more - Willian isn’t nearly as creative as he thinks he is.

As for results and the table, honestly there position is probably accurate to their squad strength and depth right now. I don’t say that as an insult but even mid table teams are spending money and getting better. Arsenal have only got a handful of great players now and that’s not enough to secure them top 6.
 

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Most managers don't have the team they want to play with though. That's just the nature of limited resources. Lampard got many of the players from his wishlist this summer but he could still point out a number if flaws in his team, and last year he got them playing great football despite having a number of obvious holes in the team. Arteta is afforded many more excuses.
It's a fair point, I believe Lampards squad was still a bit better balanced & had more quality in the forward areas than this Arsenal team, but that's a matter of opinion I suppose. I think Lampard did a very good job last term, & is on course to surpass that job this season, so well done to him.

I think it's just too early to write off anyone off, or give snap judgements. It's easy for a team to put 4 or 5 games together and for the judgement to be over the top, look at the likes of Everton, Leicester, Arsenal themselves after the Utd game. Arsenal & Arteta are going through a sticky spell, but it's still all very tight, & it's a strange season with teams seemingly being capable of beating each other, but at the same time being beat by each other.

That's not to say he has a free pass, he must settle on a formation, players & style that gets a better balance between attack & defence, but at the same time, their needs to be an understanding that it might just take better players. That's what Lampard did to improve Chelsea's defence, & ultimately, its what will likely be needed to really improve Arsenal.
 

brzez

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I honestly think he’s getting away with murder yet again. They played, what, around one hour before Pepe got sent off? Using the sending off as an excuse to be happy with one point is disgraceful. And calling it progress is just sheer comedy. It’s a progress if you close the shop and nothings coming at you, it is not progress when you get sliced up like fresh bread and gets saved three times by the crossbar/post and some great saves by the goalkeeper.

In the league, up until Boxing Day, they will face Wolves, Spurs, Burnley, Southampton, Everton and Chelsea. How many point do you think they’ll pick up?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Nothing like Emery. Rafa Benitez 2.0.
That's an insult to Rafa. He's a two times La Liga champions with Valencia and he went toe to toe winning it against Barcelona with Xavi, Puyol, Kluivert, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Real Madrid with Ronaldo, Figo, Zidane, Raul, Beckham, Carlos. Oh Champions League winner with Liverpool as well.
 

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That's an insult to Rafa. He's a two times La Liga champions with Valencia and he went toe to toe winning it against Barcelona with Xavi, Puyol, Kluivert, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Real Madrid with Ronaldo, Figo, Zidane, Raul, Beckham, Carlos. Oh Champions League winner with Liverpool as well.
Damn.. I never knew Rafa was such an accomplished manager in Spain and against such a strong Barca team.

No way Arteta can be compared to him! He isn’t even fit to lace his shoes at this point.
 

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Rough patch but I think he'll end the season well.
Arsenal's performances have been pretty consistent under Arteta which is top 8 at best. I normally don't get involved in these who gets hyped and unfairly criticised discussions but with Arteta it is truly bizarre. Even after their bad performances at the start of the season people were arguing they have a shot at top 4 and he has improved them. And now that their points tally reflects their performances a bit better you still get posts like these. People have to realise what Arsenal's level is at this point in time. They have had a negative shot differential for more than two years now for God's sake.
 
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