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MirrorFootball: Mourinho has been made a scapegoat for Man Utd claims Wayne Rooney

Marcky411

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What Rooney says is true to a certain degree but like most situations that is looking at things far to black or white. Jose is constantly picking some conflict with the player/s, his tactic well what tactics. He is the first to tell the world through the press how crap his players are and who is to blame for his failings as a manager because it can't be him, his track record proves he is a winner therefore it can't be him. That was all in the past and the way things are going at the moment for him will not be returning soon.
Obviously the players can do better but as we have seen if you don't bide by Jose's rule you are benched for weeks except if you fall under his favourites. So the rest of the players are in a Catch 22 situation, if they don't want to work with Jose they can leave unless the club don't want to sell them, e.g. Martial, Pogba or they set the price so high there are no takers for said player. As we know players have a shelf life, they don't have that luxury to wait years for things to change.
If they do perform to the standards they can play, that keeps Jose in a job, with him telling the world what a great job he is doing and as a player you are still treated like shit unless of course you are in the favoured circle. I have also noticed that only players in the favoured circle are allowed to give interviews.
Thus for the players who are not part of the inner circle, the only way they can get out of this catch 22 situation is to down tools to an extent that the manager gets fired.
 

ryansgirl

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It's quite funny, the Mourinho and Rooney situations are actually very similar.

Both were former "best in the world" contenders who've had a decline.

Both were/are living on their reputations, and that it's just a poor patch and they'll come good.

Both had blind support from certain fans, even though it was clear things were never getting better.

Both had support from certain area's of the media acting like they've never watched us actually play a match, just giving their opinion on what they once were.


TDLR : Mourinho is no more a scapegoat than Rooney was, the fact is they were both underperforming and deserve criticism, it wouldn't be happening if they were doing a good job.
Why do you have to jump into Rooney for actually being a voice of reason in the media? Have you read the article? Rooney was just stating simply that as a former player he knows that the players on the pitch are the ones who have to take responsibility for winning, drawing or losing the game. The fact he included LVG also means something.

Going into the same old 'Mourinho is terrible and look! someone is actually not agreeing blindly with the kick Jose out and therefore they deserve a slagging too' is simply ridiculous. I suppose this is the reality of redcafe 2018 - slag off ex players who were fantastic for us and deserver respect because they don't agree with your opinion on the manager and want to speak from experience - a mild one in Rooney's case.
 

FrantikChicken

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Players who will definitely want to leave - Shaw, De Gea, Pogba, Possibly Sanchez (salary might keep him going though), Martial, Lindelof, Bailly, Jones, Valencia.

Probables - Herrera (Not getting gametime), Lukaku (if he feels this system isn't helping his game), Pereira (ditto).

Unlikely, but could think about moving - Fred (if he continues to receive limited game time), Smalling (continued subtle digs at our CBs).

Now, obviously some of these players are not good and we want them to leave (like Valencia, Jones...Some even think Lukaku). Some like Herrera who don't get game time could be construed as part of a normal system of ins and outs. But simply pointing out how many players have just causes to not want to play anymore for Jose. Not saying they will all be allowed to leave of course.
Shaw - Has been playing the best football of his career this season under Mourinho. He is obviously working hard for his manager.

De Gea - The last official thing I've heard from him is that he's very happy here. He may want to leave for trophies but a new manager doesn't guarantee anything in this regard

Pogba - Sure, that situation seems messy

Sanchez - Who cares

Martial - Last official thing we heard is that he might be signing a new contract. He scored the winning goal for us last game, he's obviously working for his manager. If he's not an idiot he understands that he's too young and not quite good enough yet to be a regular Man Utd starter.

Lindeloff and Bailly - I keep repeating this, but these players were never purchased with the mindset of them being our first choices as soon as they got here. They both had only 1 season of top flight football before joining us. They have a lot of learning to do and I'm sure they're well aware.

Jones - He's a gonner anyway, not sure why we'd want to keep him in the first place

Valencia - His career is over.

Fred - Just got here from a vastly different league. He'll take time to settle. He's hopefully not an idiot either.

Lukaku - He's Mourinho through and through and has said so himself numerous times. The guy isn't gonna run away just because he's had a difficult 2 month period.


I mean really, it's all kind of in your head. Too many sensationalist headlines.
 

midnightmare

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Downed tools? What gets me is that Pogba and Shaw are the most criticized and yet they’re the best players we’ve had this season. Lukaku and Matic are supposedly Jose acolytes and both have ranged from bang average to utter cack. Young and Valencia were Jose’s men and have been worse than cack. Then we have Fellaini (Jose fought to keep him), Fred (new signing by Jose), Smalling (best CB), Alexis (signed by Jose and trying madly and vainly) etc.

Who is being accused of downing tools? Seriously. Get me the names. Jose favorite McTominay? Not-playing-Pereira? Uber-pro DdG? Who?

The tactics and selections are atrocious. Pointless blaming the players like this. If you want to, highlight names please with evidence to show they’re not trying. From what I see, they’re trying. But tactics are absent, selections are made to prove a point and the air in every PC is negative. The constant negativity starts from Jose and is affecting morale too. It’s not rocket science.

And finally, if Bailly and Martial are going to be cited, well, firstly they rarely play and secondly, that’s just two! Valencia hasn’t “downed tools”. He’s just not fit for purpose. It’s Jose that keeps starting him ahead of Dalot. And Jose that loaned out Axel and sold Blind while crying about not having CBs with technical skills. Go figure and tell me how Lindelof is better than Blind was.

Bottom line: all the pundits etc. will always defend the manager. Go and read what they said about the likes of Sam Allardyce, Martinez and Redknapp when rumours abounded of their sackings...
 

Kapardin

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Shaw - Has been playing the best football of his career this season under Mourinho. He is obviously working hard for his manager.

De Gea - The last official thing I've heard from him is that he's very happy here. He may want to leave for trophies but a new manager doesn't guarantee anything in this regard

Pogba - Sure, that situation seems messy

Sanchez - Who cares

Martial - Last official thing we heard is that he might be signing a new contract. He scored the winning goal for us last game, he's obviously working for his manager. If he's not an idiot he understands that he's too young and not quite good enough yet to be a regular Man Utd starter.

Lindeloff and Bailly - I keep repeating this, but these players were never purchased with the mindset of them being our first choices as soon as they got here. They both had only 1 season of top flight football before joining us. They have a lot of learning to do and I'm sure they're well aware.

Jones - He's a gonner anyway, not sure why we'd want to keep him in the first place

Valencia - His career is over.

Fred - Just got here from a vastly different league. He'll take time to settle. He's hopefully not an idiot either.

Lukaku - He's Mourinho through and through and has said so himself numerous times. The guy isn't gonna run away just because he's had a difficult 2 month period.


I mean really, it's all kind of in your head. Too many sensationalist headlines.
Shaw is working hard but equally, there are reports he isn't entirely happy with Jose's treatment of him and is not willing to stay longer. Martial is a goner if Jose stays for sure and there are reports of De Gea being reluctant to sign a contract precisely because he doesn't believe in the project under Jose. He may leave even if Jose does but that would be because he's lost faith in the club to get it right.

Anyway, let's first see if Jose lasts till Xmas.
 

midnightmare

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Shaw - Has been playing the best football of his career this season under Mourinho. He is obviously working hard for his manager.

De Gea - The last official thing I've heard from him is that he's very happy here. He may want to leave for trophies but a new manager doesn't guarantee anything in this regard

Pogba - Sure, that situation seems messy

Sanchez - Who cares

Martial - Last official thing we heard is that he might be signing a new contract. He scored the winning goal for us last game, he's obviously working for his manager. If he's not an idiot he understands that he's too young and not quite good enough yet to be a regular Man Utd starter.

Lindeloff and Bailly - I keep repeating this, but these players were never purchased with the mindset of them being our first choices as soon as they got here. They both had only 1 season of top flight football before joining us. They have a lot of learning to do and I'm sure they're well aware.

Jones - He's a gonner anyway, not sure why we'd want to keep him in the first place

Valencia - His career is over.

Fred - Just got here from a vastly different league. He'll take time to settle. He's hopefully not an idiot either.

Lukaku - He's Mourinho through and through and has said so himself numerous times. The guy isn't gonna run away just because he's had a difficult 2 month period.


I mean really, it's all kind of in your head. Too many sensationalist headlines.
Shaw - said to be upset at his treatment; read his interviews too. Despite the headlines, sounds more like he decided to prove Mou wrong, but has not said he is thankful to Mou or anything - and nor should he be. Harsh words should be for the private moments. I was taught by my best boss to "praise in public, bash in private". Never were truer words spoken. He's playing for 2 reasons - to get a new contract under a new boss OR a good contract at a great club elsewhere.
DdG - last report says he wants out and is stalling on the new contract
Pogba - Messy. I wonder who's fault that is
Sanchez - We should care. We should want the guy to be producing the goods. He's trying hard and getting nowhere. Wonder who's to blame
Martial - He might sign because "he feels he will outlast the manager". Yeah, working for the manager indeed...
Lindelöf / Bailly - Bailly was our best CB till his injury last season. Then Jose dropped him, threw him under the bus and now he's seemingly incompetent. Good work!
Jones - no comment
Valencia - no comment needed
Fred - "not an idiot"? What sort of view is that? He's bought by the club at the manager's behest; if Jose has no idea about him, well...
Lukaku - would be an idiot to say he's "Mou out". Even Pogba hasn't said that. However, I'm sure he's not oblivious to the fact that he seems to be declining (stats-wise) under Mou.

Edit:

My stand is clear. The players have not downed tools - but that's not because of their faith in the manager. The manager has done his best to alienate most of the players and is making selections and outlining tactics that are bizarre and demoralizing.
 

Red_Ramirez

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Wayne Rooney saying it how it is

To those of you who love a good gossip go read an OK! Magazine or something
 

sunama

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a- Mou has lost the dressing room
b- Faria's exit has hit us way harder then expected
c- Mou is done. His tactics aren't effective anymore
d- The squad is too old to do well (unlikely though as very few players qualify to that)

All options lead to tge same conclusion ie Mou needs to be replaced
Really?
a - I saw our last game. It was played at very high intensity. The kind of intensity I see rival teams use against us, like it was a Cup Final. The losing the dressing room is nonsense.
b - Faria's exit has hit us hard. No question about that. You can't lose Faria and expect the transition to go smoothly. Carrick and McKenna will eventually take the slack. In any case, sacking Jose, because Faria wanted to leave is a bit silly.
c - His tactics are old and don't work? We finished 2nd last season. If Jose's tactics are bad, what about the other 18 teams' tactics?

All options do not lead to the conclusion that Jose needs to get sacked.
I think this is your own personal wish, rather than a logically based conclusion.
 

RedDevil@84

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All 3 couldn't motivate a toddler to eat a crayon though. All 3 had a poor approach to football. All 3 fecked up in the transfer market.
It's not - the board keep choosing the wrong managers for this club.

We need a young attacking coaching, Moyes, LVG and Jose are not young attacking coaches.
So basically we need to sack the board (before the coach), because they keep screwing up the jobs over and over again.
 

FrantikChicken

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Shaw is working hard but equally, there are reports he isn't entirely happy with Jose's treatment of him and is not willing to stay longer. Martial is a goner if Jose stays for sure and there are reports of De Gea being reluctant to sign a contract precisely because he doesn't believe in the project under Jose. He may leave even if Jose does but that would be because he's lost faith in the club to get it right.

Anyway, let's first see if Jose lasts till Xmas.
That's the whole point of my post. If Mourinho lasts the season, it means we haven't had that much of a disaster. To insinuate that the whole first 11 are going to leave is a bit ridiculous.

I'm not saying he'll last. If they all pull through it, I'd be ecstatic but it doesn't seem like it right now.

Shaw - said to be upset at his treatment; read his interviews too. Despite the headlines, sounds more like he decided to prove Mou wrong, but has not said he is thankful to Mou or anything - and nor should he be. Harsh words should be for the private moments. I was taught by my best boss to "praise in public, bash in private". Never were truer words spoken. He's playing for 2 reasons - to get a new contract under a new boss OR a good contract at a great club elsewhere.
DdG - last report says he wants out and is stalling on the new contract
Pogba - Messy. I wonder who's fault that is
Sanchez - We should care. We should want the guy to be producing the goods. He's trying hard and getting nowhere. Wonder who's to blame
Martial - He might sign because "he feels he will outlast the manager". Yeah, working for the manager indeed...
Lindelöf / Bailly - Bailly was our best CB till his injury last season. Then Jose dropped him, threw him under the bus and now he's seemingly incompetent. Good work!
Jones - no comment
Valencia - no comment needed
Fred - "not an idiot"? What sort of view is that? He's bought by the club at the manager's behest; if Jose has no idea about him, well...
Lukaku - would be an idiot to say he's "Mou out". Even Pogba hasn't said that. However, I'm sure he's not oblivious to the fact that he seems to be declining (stats-wise) under Mou.

Edit:

My stand is clear. The players have not downed tools - but that's not because of their faith in the manager. The manager has done his best to alienate most of the players and is making selections and outlining tactics that are bizarre and demoralizing.
Read above. My whole point is that if Mourinho lasts the season, as you suggested, I can't see the whole first 11 leaving. It's just a ridiculous notion. If he lasts the season that means the team will have played pretty well overall.

I'm not gonna go over your imaginary interpretation of actual quotes in favour of "sources", but I'll just embellish my point on Fred: When I say he's "not an idiot" I mean he's smart enough to understand that he's new at this club, needs to settle, and shouldn't be surprised that he isn't starting every game, especially when the team is in a tough spot. He'll get a proper chance and I'm sure he'll take it. To suggest he already might want to leave is pretty silly.
 

RedDevil@84

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Perhaps so. Or they just need to get it right for once.
For that to happen, they should have some kind of vision on how the football at the club should be and the direction the club needs to go (on the footballing side and not on marketing side)
I highly doubt if they have any.
 
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Give me some names, please.
The below coaches have the right philosophy for man utd. Good brand of football and they play and develop youth.

Tuchel
Jardim
Poch
Howe
Naglesmann
 
Last edited:

devilish

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Really?
a - I saw our last game. It was played at very high intensity. The kind of intensity I see rival teams use against us, like it was a Cup Final. The losing the dressing room is nonsense.
b - Faria's exit has hit us hard. No question about that. You can't lose Faria and expect the transition to go smoothly. Carrick and McKenna will eventually take the slack. In any case, sacking Jose, because Faria wanted to leave is a bit silly.
c - His tactics are old and don't work? We finished 2nd last season. If Jose's tactics are bad, what about the other 18 teams' tactics?

All options do not lead to the conclusion that Jose needs to get sacked.
I think this is your own personal wish, rather than a logically based conclusion.
we were horrendous during the second half. Same as we were against Wolves and Derby. One half against a squad who has yet to win a game is hardly an achievement. There must be a reason why most of the players had regressed this season. Now since you don't think Mou has lost his third consecutive dressing room then surely it must be something else. Either he is a bit of a tactical dinosaur who needs help at this stage of his career or I don't really know. Whatever the case is, unless the results starting picking up then he'll lose his job. There's no doubt about that.
 

Treble

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Such smarts, who can argue with this level of logic.

You've convinced me, experience is bullshit and any player who says otherwise from personal experience must be an idiot.
I've never said that though. I just pointed out that this team has enough experienced players - in terms of age, number of played big games and league winners. City had just 4 players who had won the league prior to last season. Liverpool have now only 1 or 2 (Milner and..?).

In the first season under Jose we had 6-7 players who were champions with Fergie + Mata (CL winner) + Pogba (multiple champion with Juve) + Zlatan + Mkhi (Bundesliga winner), etc. And the team finished 6th with just 69 pts. That team was muuuuch more experienced than the City team that won 100 pts and played most games with kids up front.
 

Suedesi

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Wayne Rooney is such a team man that not only does he fly economy with the rest of the DC United players, unlike some other big-name recruits from Europe to the MLS, but he has also joined the squad’s NFL fantasy football league in order to assimilate himself more quickly into locker-room life.

The former Manchester United and England captain wants to join in all the chatter with his new team-mates, who love this humble, hard-working Englishman keeping DC’s Eastern Conference play-off dream alive with his nine goals and seven assists in 16 games. The 32-year-old scored both goals in Sunday’s 2-1 win over Chicago Fire at Audi Field, a clever flick and a penalty.

Sitting in the dressing room afterwards, having cooled down from the ferocious conditions that brought to mind humid memories of Manaus and the World Cup in 2014, Rooney spoke warmly of being able to enjoy “everyday life” in a land increasingly interested by “soccer” but not as obsessed as his homeland. In England, Rooney could not really visit the Trafford Centre without being mobbed. Here, it is a whole new mall game.


Rooney scores a penalty in DC’s 2-1 win over Chicago FireGEOFF BURKE USA TODAY SPORTS
In the past five years living in England, Rooney went to the Trafford Centre once. “It’s just the hassle. You know people are going to come up, asking for pictures and you’re expected to do them and then it gets a bit frustrating, especially for my children. I want to spend time with them. Over here it is different. In terms of my time with my family, it’s a lot more enjoyable now. It’s something I didn’t have as a child growing up from 16 going into the first team [at Everton] and England [aged 17].”

His kids are enrolled in a British school and he enlists in local life. “I’ve been to baseball a few times, I’ve joined the fantasy league for the NFL with the lads here. I know the [ice] hockey is about to start. It’s important you get into them because they are the national sports and you can have banter in the dressing room rather than not know what is going on and being lost in it.”

The prolific, industrious Rooney has become such a favourite at DC that President Trump’s Arsenal-supporting son, Barron, who turned out in midfield for DC United’s under-12s last season, is a huge fan. Rooney has yet to be tempted to play golf with the president.

Before giving him a lucrative three-and-a-half-year contract in June, the DC hierarchy did due diligence on Rooney. “We did enough research on his character,” Ben Olsen, their engaging 41-year-old head coach and a former US midfielder briefly on Nottingham Forest’s books, says. “Players who played with Wayne, coaches, agents, all said the same thing: He’s just Wayne, he goes about his business, a great team-mate and a winner.”

DC realised that there is no ego to Rooney, just drive. “We knew as we spent more time with Wayne that he was here for all the right reasons, that he wanted to dig in and start the next chapter of his career and go for the championship again,” the chief executive, Jason Levien, says.


Rooney enjoys a reunion with Schweinsteiger at Audi Field on SundayGEOFF BURKE/USA TODAY SPORTS
When they got round to discussing team tactics, Olsen told Rooney: “I’m going to play you as a No 9, and I want you to score goals again.” He has always been good in the air and in space and relishes his role at Audi Field, just off Washington’s famed Museum Mile. Olsen also told Rooney that he has the “freedom” to roam, dropping off, and his movement confused Chicago at times, even with Bastian Schweinsteiger organising their defence as a rather glamorous left-sided centre back.

The pair embraced at the final whistle, continuing respect forged as opponents from Bloemfontein to Bayern Munich and as team-mates at United. “It was great Wazza came over here but it’s still not his kind of weather, his head gets very red!” Schweinsteiger laughs. “It’s good to see him. He’s doing very well here.”

Rooney enjoyed catching up with Schweinsteiger. “He has won everything there is to win,” Rooney said. “He’s a top-class player, a good person who just loves football.” Schweinsteiger noted Rooney’s undimmed hunger, a quality quickly appreciated by DC. “No one in our fanbase knew exactly what to expect in terms of his commitment levels,” Levien says, “but then we had an early match [against Colorado Rapids] where he broke his nose, scarred his face and came back on the pitch [having five stitches later]. The next match [against Montreal Impact] he headed the ball and damaged himself some more and our fans are falling more and more in love with him.” His shirts sell out.

DC players and staff love him too. “He has given the players some swagger and I knew he would hold guys accountable,” Olsen says. “Players like him are rare, players with the hunger and that fear of failure that drives them.”

That hunger seeps through Rooney’s conversation as he sits in a locker-room, Kanye West thumping from the speakers, and reflects on his career. Even becoming a Champions League winner in Moscow in 2008 did not leave Rooney feeling fulfilled.

“Not really. You feel more the ones you lose than the ones you win. When you lose you think you can do better individually — which sticks with you.”

He thinks of the most painful defeats. “The two finals, the Champions League finals,” he says of the losses to Lionel Messi’s Barcelona in Rome in 2009 and Wembley in 2011. “If we’d been against any other team but Barcelona, you’d have fancied us to win. In my eyes they’re the best team ever and Messi is the best player ever. He’s incredible.”

Rooney pauses as he considers the debate about Messi, his old nemesis, and Cristiano Ronaldo, his old team-mate. “Messi and Ronaldo are different players. Ronaldo has gone from a winger to a striker and a goalscorer rather than taking players on all the time, gone more one or two touch and getting in the box and scoring goals, where Messi has just got a bit of everything. You see Messi scoring goals from a deep midfield role at times.”

Rooney resumed his trip down memory lane. “Probably the most painful was Arsenal in the FA Cup final in 2005. We dominated the game, could have won by three or four goals but lost on penalties. That game sticks out.”

Sitting on a small chair, looking lean and his face almost gaunt from all this playing and training in this furnace across the Atlantic, Rooney’s thoughts do dart back across the pond. England’s greatest goalscorer, who retired from international football last year, he needs no prompting to know that this is international week, having seen Gareth Southgate’s latest youthful squad.

“It was a difficult situation to walk away from but I thought it was the right time, not only for myself but for England,” he says. “With the quality in the squad, the potential is there in the next four years. I just thought I’d got to a stage when it was best for me to step aside and let them come through and flourish under the new manager and new system.

“Me being there, maybe some players might have felt I was holding them back. I have no regrets with the decision I’ve made. I watched them in the World Cup and I loved to watch them as a fan. It was something I haven’t done since school. I know players say they can’t bear to watch but, if you know the time was right for you to step away from it, then you can enjoy it.”

He is enjoying the young ones with England, such as the teenagers Jadon Sancho and Mason Mount. “It’s good to try players,” he says. “Some players might surprise you, and some players play a lot better when they are around better quality players.

“Hopefully some of those players can surprise everyone and take their chance. It’s great that Gareth has given them that faith and that belief. If they are not good enough you can always put them back in the under-21s or wherever.”

Sancho and others have gone abroad, to ensure regular game-time. “It’s good because some of them aren’t getting the chances they need and may need to look abroad to get that chance,” Rooney adds.


Rooney signed a lucrative three-and-a-half-year contract in JunePA
“It’s a shame in some ways but it may be the best option for some players to get top-level football. He [Sancho] has done that [with Borussia Dortmund] and probably done better than people think and maybe some more young players will follow.”

Rooney understands the Catch 22. “There is a lot of pressure on all the managers, especially with managers getting sacked after six months so they probably feel they haven’t got the time to play a young player into the team,” he says.

“It’s difficult for so many players but they have to try and demand to play by their performances as Rashford, Lingard and Raheem Sterling did in the last couple of years. The manager has had no option but to play them. Maybe they have to do that a bit more.

“It is hard because people want more English players, more English coaches but some of the foreign coaches have brought a different level to the young English players. With the likes of Guardiola and Klopp, you’re seeing the likes of Sterling, how much he is improving [under Guardiola]. It is hard; we all want English coaches, English players but sometimes you have to embrace the top-class foreign ones.”

He sympathises with the youngsters coming through, having seen how the external pressures have increased. “Of course, yes, social media has. When you’re younger it is more difficult to deal with,” he says.

“Some of the players are looking at social media and getting down because whether they play well or not they’re going to get people saying bad things. Players have to understand, to listen to your coaches and team-mates as they are the ones who are honest with you.”

Talking of youngsters, Rooney coached some of the junior age-groups at United and coaching is a road he will head down later on. “I haven’t started the badges yet because I wanted to get settled in here with the family first. I’ll start when the season finishes here. Hopefully, by the time I go back to England, I will have them.”

DC will assist Rooney on his coaching pathway. “He has expressed an interest,” Levien confirms. “He has an extremely high soccer IQ and that shouldn’t surprise anyone,” Olsen adds. “He has been around the game at a high level since he was 16, been around some wonderful coaches, loves the game, and I don’t see why he couldn’t make a very good coach.” Nothing is imminent. Rooney’s playing too well. “He’s an absolute joy to work with,” Olsen concludes.


Wazza
 

ryansgirl

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Thanks for that timely reminder of who Wayne Rooney is. He always has and always will be the council estate boy who won't forget his roots. He gave his all for us, was the kind of player like Keano and Becks who had different styles but made good situations happen in games rather than stand around waiting for somebody else.

Everyone has the right to their opinion. However, seeing some posters on the caf continually sniping at our best past players because they don't weigh in with the 'sack the manager, the players are saints who need an arm around them all the time' assertions and also have the gall to slag off those former players as having 'an agenda' makes me think those posters spend too much time in the twitter, instagram world where assertions masquerade as facts.
 

haram

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The below coaches have the right philosophy for man utd. Good brand of football and they play and develop.

Tuchel
Jardim
Poch
Howe
Naglesmann
Howe wouldn’t even be mentioned before the start of this season.
 

Reddy Rederson

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Rooney really doesn't have any incentive to defend the manager that finally pulled the trigger. I can't stand this self-congratulatory trend of know-nothings dismissing the opinion of anyone that ever failed at anything, or made a mistake. Rooney is our club's record goal scorer, and as much as I groaned at times watching him decline, he is more entitled to an opinion about this than any of us. Feel free to disagree with him, but your opinion is not justified by the fact Wayne is no longer a great player.

Keane says the players need to step up... suddenly we all love Mick McCarthy. Giggs says United need to stick with Mourinho... what does he know, he lost a game when he was our manager, and was on LVG's coaching staff. Rooney says Mourinho is an easy target... well he was stealing a living from this club. Neville... Etc. Etc.

Some of you people need to take a look at yourselves. Disagree, that's your right, and this forum is at its best when there's a bit of banter... but just having a go at every explayer who doesn't agree with your opinion is boring, contributes nothing, and just a bit sad. That's our record goal scorer, our most decorated player, and one of the finest captains this club has ever had. They're entitled to their opinions too.
I was with you right up until that bolded bit. But that aside, fantastic post.
 

Darkhorsez

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Why do you have to jump into Rooney for actually being a voice of reason in the media? Have you read the article? Rooney was just stating simply that as a former player he knows that the players on the pitch are the ones who have to take responsibility for winning, drawing or losing the game. The fact he included LVG also means something.

Going into the same old 'Mourinho is terrible and look! someone is actually not agreeing blindly with the kick Jose out and therefore they deserve a slagging too' is simply ridiculous. I suppose this is the reality of redcafe 2018 - slag off ex players who were fantastic for us and deserver respect because they don't agree with your opinion on the manager and want to speak from experience - a mild one in Rooney's case.
Wow ! Good post
 

Gasolin

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It's not because he turns the players against him though right?
But what does that even mean? If the players turn on Mourinho, then play for Conte, then turn on him, are you still implying it’s the manager’s fault? What are you going to say when they turn on Sarri because let’s say they think he’s too “detailed” oriented or defensive or whatever. Is it still the manager’s fault?

Don’t you think players like any employees have to work with the manager no matter what or be fired?
 

Suedesi

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Thanks for that timely reminder of who Wayne Rooney is. He always has and always will be the council estate boy who won't forget his roots. He gave his all for us, was the kind of player like Keano and Becks who had different styles but made good situations happen in games rather than stand around waiting for somebody else.

Everyone has the right to their opinion. However, seeing some posters on the caf continually sniping at our best past players because they don't weigh in with the 'sack the manager, the players are saints who need an arm around them all the time' assertions and also have the gall to slag off those former players as having 'an agenda' makes me think those posters spend too much time in the twitter, instagram world where assertions masquerade as facts.
There was always a spiteful and unedifying nastiness towards Wazza - I've always been convinced that it stemmed from his humble roots. I'm delighted he's doing so well in the MLS and also that he's so highly regarded for his personal qualities by the DC Management.
 

Cassidy

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But what does that even mean? If the players turn on Mourinho, then play for Conte, then turn on him, are you still implying it’s the manager’s fault? What are you going to say when they turn on Sarri because let’s say they think he’s too “detailed” oriented or defensive or whatever. Is it still the manager’s fault?

Don’t you think players like any employees have to work with the manager no matter what or be fired?
No because in real life, managers get fired when they turn a high functioning team against them. If its just a few individuals fine, when its more like a whole unit of a company that doesn't want to work for them, well the company at times fires the manager.
 

Gasolin

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No because in real life, managers get fired when they turn a high functioning team against them. If its just a few individuals fine, when its more like a whole unit of a company that doesn't want to work for them, well the company at times fires the manager.
In the real world, if the “highly functioning” team got 2 managers fired, the whole team would be disciplined. One maybe, not two, and certainly not three. It would mean the manager has no authority. In this case, either the job is useless, or another higher ranking manager has to lead and enforce authority. But there is always an authority to respect.
 

Cassidy

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In the real world, if the “highly functioning” team got 2 managers fired, the whole team would be disciplined. One maybe, not two, and certainly not three. It would mean the manager has no authority. In this case, either the job is useless, or another higher ranking manager has to lead and enforce authority. But there is always an authority to respect.
Except thats not true. If the manager isnt performing their job the manager would be fired. It doesnt mean they have no authority it could simply mean they are leading in the wrong direction. It happens plenty of times in the corporate world. Managers are moved on, yes you are right if the team itself was the issue (not doing their jobs) etc they would be deciplined/fired. The enforcement of “authority” is such an oudated term btw because most managers also have a manager.

That also applies in this case the manager at a football club reports up.

Also you should look into the Conte situation more, it wasnt the players that got him fired. His fall out with the board over transfers in the second summer and being quite public about it is what got him fired. He was a dead man walking at the start of the season and it was well known.
 

Cassidy

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Do they win anything? I thinking that's also a part of the United brand and philosophy...winning.
Well Jardim won the title vs PSG

Tuchel has won a title I believe and has also won the German cup with Dortmund.

Howe - won the championship

Poch - well I really think he should have won an FA Cup with Spurs.

The others are yet to manage clubs where winning was really an option in the top leagues.

However more important is the potential to win. Just like we cant wait for players to go to top leagues before we make a move, we should not be cautious and wait till a manager goes to a top club and win before we appoint them.

Thats not to say I would hire all of those names from that list.

But if all the available managers left are ones that have won but dont meet most of the rest of our criteria we shouldnt hire them. The experience with LvG and Jose should have taught us that lesson.
 

Cassidy

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How can you say the players have down tools for 3 different managers, when majority of the under performers are Jose’s signings?
Matic,lukaku,pogba,Sanchez,Bailly & Lindelof underperforming.
De Gea hasn’t downed tools, Smalling is holding that defence together. Shaw has been the top performer this season. Martial & Rashford playing second fiddle to Sanchez & Lukaku. Young and Valencia have been trash but Mourinho chooses to over use them. What was it he said pre season? Young will play 50 games? Christ.
Shhh dont mess up the narrative
 

Gasolin

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Except thats not true. If the manager isnt performing their job the manager would be fired. It doesnt mean they have no authority it could simply mean they are leading in the wrong direction. It happens plenty of times in the corporate world. Managers are moved on, yes you are right if the team itself was the issue (not doing their jobs) etc they would be deciplined/fired. The enforcement of “authority” is such an oudated term btw because most managers also have a manager.

That also applies in this case the manager at a football club reports up.

Also you should look into the Conte situation more, it wasnt the players that got him fired. His fall out with the board over transfers in the second summer and being quite public about it is what got him fired. He was a dead man walking at the start of the season and it was well known.
There are so many things I disagree in this post but it seems we won’t budge so I won’t get too much into it. But in industries where excellence is required, authority and respect of the structure, values, etc... outdated concepts as you say, still matter.

For Conte, the whole talking point is about the performance. As Mourinho said, we don’t care if players play for him or not. We do care that they keep winning for United or not, which they are not doing, and the Chelsea players also didn’t win for Conte in his second year just like they did not win in the second year of Mourinho’s second stint at Chelsea. Anecdotally, they did win the year before each time. So you have to wonder too why. I understand it doesn’t fit your narrative.
 

99withaflake

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In the real world, if the “highly functioning” team got 2 managers fired, the whole team would be disciplined. One maybe, not two, and certainly not three. It would mean the manager has no authority. In this case, either the job is useless, or another higher ranking manager has to lead and enforce authority. But there is always an authority to respect.
Except thats not true. If the manager isnt performing their job the manager would be fired. It doesnt mean they have no authority it could simply mean they are leading in the wrong direction. It happens plenty of times in the corporate world. Managers are moved on, yes you are right if the team itself was the issue (not doing their jobs) etc they would be deciplined/fired. The enforcement of “authority” is such an oudated term btw because most managers also have a manager.

That also applies in this case the manager at a football club reports up.

Also you should look into the Conte situation more, it wasnt the players that got him fired. His fall out with the board over transfers in the second summer and being quite public about it is what got him fired. He was a dead man walking at the start of the season and it was well known.
Something similar happened at an old workplace of mine.

We were a small team that grew and improved our performance dramatically over a 2-3 year period. When our manager left, there were many colleagues who tried to take the lead and became very sure of how the team should be run.

A couple of managers came in but just couldn't get everyone moving in the same direction. Despite having a talented bunch of staff, the egos were too high and the culture became both toxic and political.

After that, another coupe of managers gave it a go, this time with the help of HR and some restructuring processes, but it was pretty difficult to get rid of everyone who was a problem.

Even our Managing Director nicknamed us The Unmanageables.

This was years ago, but at the time I was one of the pricks causing trouble.

Edit: This was a digital team within the education industry, but I feel a lot of the basics still apply.
 

Cassidy

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There are so many things I disagree in this post but it seems we won’t budge so I won’t get too much into it. But in industries where excellence is required, authority and respect of the structure, values, etc... outdated concepts as you say, still matter.

For Conte, the whole talking point is about the performance. As Mourinho said, we don’t care if players play for him or not. We do care that they keep winning for United or not, which they are not doing, and the Chelsea players also didn’t win for Conte in his second year just like they did not win in the second year of Mourinho’s second stint at Chelsea. Anecdotally, they did win the year before each time. So you have to wonder too why. I understand it doesn’t fit your narrative.
If you think players can just go out and win without good management, “players didnt go out and win for Conte/Jose” why do we bother with managers in the first place?

What is my favourite narrative?

Jose threw a fit and was unhappy with the signing made by the club. Subsequently the team who he had winning the title started not winning.

Conte threw a fit and was unhappy the clubs signings. Subsequently the team he had winning the title started not winning.

A managers job is to get their team performing to their maximum. Its a failure of theirs if a team which just won a title is no longer performing.

Now in terms of United yes I care if player perform. Ive seen our performances over the past 2 years under Jose and Im an not impressed. But which players have downed tools? I am yet to see any player that look like they have downed tools.

I do see a manager who is playing not only CMs and CB but is also playing a young inexperienced CM who isnt even good enough to be playing CM at CB. So who is really downing tools here?
 

Cassidy

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Something similar happened at an old workplace of mine.

We were a small team that grew and improved our performance dramatically over a 2-3 year period. When our manager left, there were many colleagues who tried to take the lead and became very sure of how the team should be run.

A couple of managers came in but just couldn't get everyone moving in the same direction. Despite having a talented bunch of staff, the egos were too high and the culture became both toxic and political.

After that, another coupe of managers gave it a go, this time with the help of HR and some restructuring processes, but it was pretty difficult to get rid of everyone who was a problem.

Even our Managing Director nicknamed us The Unmanageables.

This was years ago, but at the time I was one of the pricks causing trouble.

Edit: This was a digital team within the education industry, but I feel a lot of the basics still apply.
Yes I think this can happen and does. Like I said though it isnt the case that because 2 managers failed that the team is the issue. Sometimes the managers just did a poor job.
 

99withaflake

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Something similar happened at an old workplace of mine.

We were a small team that grew and improved our performance dramatically over a 2-3 year period. When our manager left, there were many colleagues who tried to take the lead and became very sure of how the team should be run.

A couple of managers came in but just couldn't get everyone moving in the same direction. Despite having a talented bunch of staff, the egos were too high and the culture became both toxic and political.

After that, another coupe of managers gave it a go, this time with the help of HR and some restructuring processes, but it was pretty difficult to get rid of everyone who was a problem.

Even our Managing Director nicknamed us The Unmanageables.

This was years ago, but at the time I was one of the pricks causing trouble.

Edit: This was a digital team within the education industry, but I feel a lot of the basics still apply.
Yes I think this can happen and does. Like I said though it isnt the case that because 2 managers failed that the team is the issue. Sometimes the managers just did a poor job.
Trust me, the team was the issue.

We had a range of managers, one was visionary and creative, another was smart and technical, one was very social and a great people person, and the other was a good all rounder.......it didn't matter who they had in the charge though, they just couldn't win.

Once HR got involved and started to help push the bad eggs out, things did get better but it took years and years.
 

Cassidy

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Trust me, the team was the issue.

We had a range of managers, one was visionary and creative, another was smart and technical, one was very social and a great people person, and the other was a good all rounder.......it didn't matter who they had in the charge though, they just couldn't win.

Once HR got involved and started to help push the bad eggs out, things did get better but it took years and years.

Ahh my response wasnt about your team.

It was about Chelsea and the idea that it had to be the team rather than the managers obvious falling out with the board before the season even started.

In the case of your team I wouldnt begin to question what happened since you were there! Plus like I said it does happen and quite a lot. The point I was trying to make to the other poster was that the opposite also happens.

Basically you cannot just assume because 2 managers failed the team is the problem.
 

Jojo <3 Mou

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Tuchel has won a title I believe and has also won the German cup with Dortmund.
Tuchel has won a a supercup with PSG and yes a cup with Dortmund.

Howe - won the championship
:rolleyes:

Poch - well I really think he should have won an FA Cup with Spurs
. :lol:

Do you really think that these are suitable qualifications to be the manager of Manchester United? Only Jardim is even worthy of an interview.

However more important is the potential to win. Just like we cant wait for players to go to top leagues before we make a move, we should not be cautious and wait till a manager goes to a top club and win before we appoint them.
I think taking risks can bring high reward but with Manchester United it is necessary to take calculated risks. You cannot be hiring people without experience at this level unless they are prodigies. Very few cases of an inexperienced manager will produce a Pep or a Zidane. They will generally produces Moyes. *Even with Sir Alex, whilst he was working in the Scottish League, he had years of success to his name (12 major trophies!) He shun in his arena. None of these candidates really shine.

The experience with LvG and Jose should have taught us that lesson.
Didn't Moyes teach you anything?
 

Cassidy

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Tuchel has won a a supercup with PSG and yes a cup with Dortmund.

:rolleyes:

. :lol:

Do you really think that these are suitable qualifications to be the manager of Manchester United? Only Jardim is even worthy of an interview.



I think taking risks can bring high reward but with Manchester United it is necessary to take calculated risks. You cannot be hiring people without experience at this level unless they are prodigies. Very few cases of an inexperienced manager will produce a Pep or a Zidane. They will generally produces Moyes. *Even with Sir Alex, whilst he was working in the Scottish League, he had years of success to his name (12 major trophies!) He shun in his arena. None of these candidates really shine.

Didn't Moyes teach you anything?
The Moyes comment is silly. He should never have got the job because he didnt meet any of the other criteria.

Does Pep Zidane Luis Enrique and multiple other examples teach you anything?

Like I said I didnt even say I would hire anyone from that list. You should read properly.

The point I was making is that we shouldnt be afraid as a club to make a bold move and go for a top up and coming manager just because he hasnt won a major title yet if they tick all of the others boxes. And just to reiterate Moyes was not a top up and coming manager. He did nothing extraordinary, didnt play extraordinary football didnt bring through young talent etc etc.