MirrorFootball: Mourinho has been made a scapegoat for Man Utd claims Wayne Rooney

[roonster09]

We said lvg would turn things around, moyes was out of his depth. We says jose will win us a title or two, lvg has gone senile. Now we're saying the same thing all over again that the next manager would make us tick again. Lvg and mourinho are the world's top coaches when they're appointed, now they're dinosaurs. Maybe the problem isn't only the manager

Manager isn't the only problem but when you see the teams that played then the first 11 under Moyes and Van Gaal was completely different. Same with Jose, so you cant say it's the players as we don't have same players.

Players who started most games in PL
Moyes:
De Gea
Rafael
Jones/Rio
Vidic/Smalling
Evra
Carrick
Cleverley/Fellaini
Valencia
Welbeck/Young
Kagawa/RVP
Rooney

Van Gaal
De Gea
Darmian
Smalling
Blind
Young
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger/Carrick
Mata
Martial
Rooney
Rashford/Lingard/Depay

Jose
De Gea
Valencia
Smalling
Bailly/Lindelof
Shaw
Pogba
Matic
Fellaini
Sanchez
Lukaku
Rashford/Martial

We don't even have same players to put the entire blame on players. Issue is every manager signing his own players and then failing.

 

[Kapardin]

If Jose stays, our entire starting XI and possibly 2-3 bench players will leave. While many won't be a loss, there are some we would like to keep, and it is also not feasible to buy 15 new players in one window, just can't be done.

Point being, this is only heading one way. Next season, it won't be Jose in charge even if he wins the premier league for us this season.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

Why would we believe anything The Mirror says anymore?

 

[Micky Targaryen]

When you guys say this rubbish about players 'downing tools' could you be more specific? Give me the name of a single player you're 100% sure has downed tools under Jose, or the managers you mentioned

Of course we cannot 100% confirm any players downing tools. What we can see is their performance on the pitch and there are basically crap, playing like they don't care about the club. If you think it's Jose's fault, can you give me a situation of which you're 100% sure, that his attitude towards the players on the training ground is the same as what's being portrayed by the media?

exactly. Also if they had downed tools then its up to the manager to isolate those bad apples so they never play for United again. If there are too many of them then that reflects on Mou's man management and not the players in question.

Do you seriously think in this modern age of football, it's really that simple to just make sure the bad apples don't play for United again? Jose is not SAF, no one will ever be a SAF, where he gets full reign. Do you think Ed and the board will allow Jose to isolate Pogba, our most marketable player, from the club?

 

[flappyjay]

How can you say the players have down tools for 3 different managers, when majority of the under performers are Jose’s signings?
Matic,lukaku,pogba,Sanchez,Bailly & Lindelof underperforming.
De Gea hasn’t downed tools, Smalling is holding that defence together. Shaw has been the top performer this season. Martial & Rashford playing second fiddle to Sanchez & Lukaku. Young and Valencia have been trash but Mourinho chooses to over use them. What was it he said pre season? Young will play 50 games? Christ.

This here is the actual truth of the matter

 

[FootyGirl88]

How can you say the players have down tools for 3 different managers, when majority of the under performers are Jose’s signings?
Matic,lukaku,pogba,Sanchez,Bailly & Lindelof underperforming.
De Gea hasn’t downed tools, Smalling is holding that defence together. Shaw has been the top performer this season. Martial & Rashford playing second fiddle to Sanchez & Lukaku. Young and Valencia have been trash but Mourinho chooses to over use them. What was it he said pre season? Young will play 50 games? Christ.

It's true - if anything it's Jose's guys that are the ones letting him down.

Matic
Young
Valencia
Lukaku

And they all play in key areas!

 

[Rednotdead]

I think the second half on Saturday proved the players haven't downed tools. If they had, would they have come back from 2-0 down when a result like that might well have spelled the end for Mourinho?

 

[Red_Ramirez]

Well said Rooney

Some players are hiding

 

[Fully Fledged]

We said lvg would turn things around, moyes was out of his depth. We says jose will win us a title or two, lvg has gone senile. Now we're saying the same thing all over again that the next manager would make us tick again. Lvg and mourinho are the world's top coaches when they're appointed, now they're dinosaurs. Maybe the problem isn't only the manager

Jose had been sacked by Chelsea for nearly getting them relegated when we signed him.
Everyone was saying the players got him sacked that it was all down to the players then 3 years later and here we are it’s all on the players again.

 

[devilish]

Do you seriously think in this modern age of football, it's really that simple to just make sure the bad apples don't play for United again? Jose is not SAF, no one will ever be a SAF, where he gets full reign. Do you think Ed and the board will allow Jose to isolate Pogba, our most marketable player, from the club?

He can and he did. The trouble is that Pogs isn't the only player who is under performing. Most of our players are. Also our major issues are in defence and attack ie were most Mou's signings are located in

Which means one of the below is happening

a- Mou has lost the dressing room
b- a Faria less Mou isn't special at all
c- Most of Mou's signings are cack or at least they are not performing because of him or his tactics

All of which point to the same conclusion. The man needs to be sacked

 

[Adam-Utd]

It's quite funny, the Mourinho and Rooney situations are actually very similar.

Both were former "best in the world" contenders who've had a decline.

Both were/are living on their reputations, and that it's just a poor patch and they'll come good.

Both had blind support from certain fans, even though it was clear things were never getting better.

Both had support from certain area's of the media acting like they've never watched us actually play a match, just giving their opinion on what they once were.


TDLR : Mourinho is no more a scapegoat than Rooney was, the fact is they were both underperforming and deserve criticism, it wouldn't be happening if they were doing a good job.

 

[Treble]

It's quite funny, the Mourinho and Rooney situations are actually very similar.

Both were former "best in the world" contenders who've had a decline.

Both were/are living on their reputations, and that it's just a poor patch and they'll come good.

Both had blind support from certain fans, even though it was clear things were never getting better.

Both had support from certain area's of the media acting like they've never watched us actually play a match, just giving their opinion on what they once were.


TDLR : Mourinho is no more a scapegoat than Rooney was, the fact is they were both underperforming and deserve criticism, it wouldn't be happening if they were doing a good job.

Very true that. There were guys on here who were in denial about Rooney almost till the end.

 

[kouroux]

The manager isn’t the problem.

You're right, he's part of it. Everyone inside the club has a part of responsibility. That is why taking a side (players or manager) is so stupid.

 

[fellaini's barber]

On the other hand people who organise a coup tend to be smarter then to expose themselves by playing shite all the time. They'll make sure to produce enough brilliance to keep the heat away from them and ro convince the next manager that they Weren't the ones to backstab the previous manager

While I agree that there is no definitive proof that the players sold Mou out, its also true that most of our players had regressed from last season

Now there are 4 possible reasons to that

a- Mou has lost the dressing room
b- Faria's exit has hit us way harder then expected
c- Mou is done. His tactics aren't effective anymore
d- The squad is too old to do well (unlikely though as very few players qualify to that)

All options lead to tge same conclusion ie Mou needs to be replaced

Well there's no evidence of anything else apart from option c. These players are all still playing for him as evidenced by the Newcastle. Faria? Nah we've been shit since he was here. Our problem is that our football is crap and clueless, mid and bottom table teams play better football than us, people seem to forget that this didn't start this season.

 

[Treble]

I don't think that Rooney's words are worth a new thread. Do people agree with what he says of LVG? No? Basically, he says the same about Jose.

It's not true that the squad is young and there isn't enough experience there. Except for Rashford, McTominay, Shaw and Martial, the squad is full with experienced players and is actually older than that of Liverpool and City.

 

[devilish]

Well there's no evidence of anything else apart from option c. These players are all still playing for him as evidenced by the Newcastle. Faria? Nah we've been shit since he was here. Our problem is that our football is crap and clueless, mid and bottom table teams play better football than us, people seem to forget that this didn't start this season.

As said everything point to one conclusion. Mou must leave

 

[Patrick08]

Well said Rooney

Some players are hiding

No doubt, not only some, many are but that doesn't mean mourinho is not culpable as well. The style of play is holding us back which he just don't want to improve and also he keeps targeting wrong players in the market while never fixing the midfield issue.

His favourites are never criticised, or dropped regardless of how atrocious they play no matter what, while he has been stubborn as well in tactical systems and setups.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Of course we cannot 100% confirm any players downing tools. What we can see is their performance on the pitch and there are basically crap, playing like they don't care about the club. If you think it's Jose's fault, can you give me a situation of which you're 100% sure, that his attitude towards the players on the training ground is the same as what's being portrayed by the media?



Do you seriously think in this modern age of football, it's really that simple to just make sure the bad apples don't play for United again? Jose is not SAF, no one will ever be a SAF, where he gets full reign. Do you think Ed and the board will allow Jose to isolate Pogba, our most marketable player, from the club?

Some players are crap not because they don't care about the club, but because they're just not that good. Will caring about the club get Valencia and Young to have any ability in attack? Will caring about the club make Matic and Fellaini move the ball quicker? Will it make Lingard have any use on the pitch apart from running round and round? The fact whether we want to believe it or not is that Jose is trying his best with this team and so are the players. He has bought a bunch of players who now look like shadows of themselves, he's made the ones he inherited look like crap too, there's just no one else to pin this on, not in his third season

 

[Leftback99]

It's quite funny, the Mourinho and Rooney situations are actually very similar.

Both were former "best in the world" contenders who've had a decline.

Both were/are living on their reputations, and that it's just a poor patch and they'll come good.

Both had blind support from certain fans, even though it was clear things were never getting better.

Both had support from certain area's of the media acting like they've never watched us actually play a match, just giving their opinion on what they once were.


TDLR : Mourinho is no more a scapegoat than Rooney was, the fact is they were both underperforming and deserve criticism, it wouldn't be happening if they were doing a good job.

And many believed that once Rooney left (or was out of the team) we'd be much better. Let's hope the similarities end there.

 

[Patrick08]

he's made the ones he inherited look like crap too

I remembered the stark difference between Herrera's impact in first season behind Carrick alongside pogba, and now what Herrera has become, since we changed our proactive style to reactive style. He was best used as pressing machine in that season, kept breaking opposition attacks in the middle in proactive fashion, then come seco second season with matic purchase we started to sit back without any pressing in the middle and upfront and he was asked to just sit alongside matic and just keep waiting while dropping deep and wait for oppositions mistakes rather than force the mistakes off them and that's where he struggled and is a shadow of a player he was in first season under mourinho. Carrick in behind made things look so calm dictating play from the back while Herrera made life difficult for opponents in the middle . now its just stop pressing drop deep and wait for the mistakes while committing numerous mistakes ourselves.

 

[Smores]

I don't think that Rooney's words are worth a new thread. Do people agree with what he says of LVG? No? Basically, he says the same about Jose.

It's not true that the squad is young and there isn't enough experience there. Except for Rashford, McTominay, Shaw and Martial, the squad is full with experienced players and is actually older than that of Liverpool and City.

Exactly where is this experience that players look upto? What a wierd list, what experience and leadership do the following bring? Lukaku, Fred, Herrera, Fellaini, Lingard, Bailey, Lindeloff, Dalot, Young, Jones, Smalling?

The only ones you can say somewhat count are Pogba, Matic, Valencia and Mata and the variety of issues should be obvious there.

Ibra was a massive loss, he was the player that the rest looked upto. We always used to have a strong contingent of them that initiated new players, kept them in line. It's a huge loss for us.

But no you're right, only threads where everyone says "It's on the manager" are worth creating. Boy do i love reading that for the millionth time, so interesting and debate worthy

 

[VP89]

Wonder if Rooney feels the same way about Moyes & Lvg when he was still around stinking the place up.

He actually says lvg set them up nicely but they failed to perform. So he shoulders responsibility in the article.

 

[Janson]

I pray to God we'd get a good attacking coach soon that will have us playing proper football so we can stop hearing and reading all these random and cliché reasons as to why we're seeing these problems with our team.

Put in a manager who knows how to coach and has a modern mindset to football, we'll see a vast difference in our play and all these silly and farfetched theories as to why we suck will dissappear.

I would say your solution is pretty silly and far fetched, If you think there will be a big difference in results, without adding some quality to the team.

Mourinho is a problem, yes. But far from the only problem.

 

[Treble]

Exactly where is this experience that players look upto? What a wierd list, what experience and leadership do the following bring? Lukaku, Fred, Herrera, Fellaini, Lingard, Bailey, Lindeloff, Dalot, Young, Jones, Smalling?

The only ones you can say somewhat count are Pogba, Matic, Valencia and Mata and the variety of issues should be obvious there.

Ibra was a massive loss, he was the player that the rest looked upto. We always used to have a strong contingent of them that initiated new players, kept them in line. It's a huge loss for us.

But no you're right, only threads where everyone says "It's on the manager" are worth creating. Boy do i love reading that for the millionth time, so interesting and debate worthy

Well, City had 4-5 experienced players (given your criterion which is not age but success?) and won 100 pts last season. Liverpool didn't have even 2-3 experienced players (on that criterion) and reached the CL final.

 

[#07]

I think he's right about needing experienced players in the squad to guide youngsters and new arrivals through testing times.

Not just older players over 30, but strong characters
who have been at the club long enough to know what it means to be a Man Utd player and how to deal with the massive pressures that come with it.

Rooney had a wealth of such teammates to lean on in his early years (G Nev, Keane, Giggs to name a few), but young players and recent arrivals today have to rely upon Velancia, Young and Smalling (!) for this kind of support and guidance when the going gets tough.

It leaves the weaknesses in the team much more exposed and fragile under pressure or great negativity.

This also alludes to what Moirinho was getting at when he referred to the struggles of Rashford and McTominay on Saturday. We don't have these characters with that nuanced Man Utd experience these days, and unfortunately you can't buy that. SAF always had it in abundance and it comes with continuity and stability. Any successful manager needs a group of senior players beneath him to pick up any slack when needed.

Exactly where is this experience that players look upto? What a wierd list, what experience and leadership do the following bring? Lukaku, Fred, Herrera, Fellaini, Lingard, Bailey, Lindeloff, Dalot, Young, Jones, Smalling?

The only ones you can say somewhat count are Pogba, Matic, Valencia and Mata and the variety of issues should be obvious there.

Ibra was a massive loss, he was the player that the rest looked upto. We always used to have a strong contingent of them that initiated new players, kept them in line. It's a huge loss for us.

But no you're right, only threads where everyone says "It's on the manager" are worth creating. Boy do i love reading that for the millionth time, so interesting and debate worthy

Agree with both of you on the experience point and that's the biggest issue to come out of the post-Fergie years. Moyes and Van Gaal moved a lot of players out of United and in that process we lost the leaders in the dressing room.

We used to have a host of multiple title winners in our dressing room. The only players who have won the Premier League twice at United today are Smalling and Valencia, 2011 and 2013.

Our team is so brittle. 2018 is the first year that has seen us come back from 2-0 down since 2013, right? The comebacks we saw last weekend, at City and at Palace, simply did not happen under Moyes and Van Gaal. When we went behind we lost. The way we go from looking all at sea to looking dangerous after scoring a goal shows the mentality of the team is nowhere near what it should be.

The help Rooney and Ronaldo had, from experienced players who could shoulder the weight of expectation and give them the freedom to express themselves, doesn't really exist in this team. The loss of players like Rio, Vidic, Evra, Fletcher, Carrick etc. has been a huge loss. Some of the guys that went may not have been the most talented but you could bring them on in a testy game e.g. West Ham away just to bring some calm to proceedings. To be the one that says 'hey, don't worry been there, done that we'll get through this' to the younger players.

It was so obvious why Mourinho wanted to bring more experience into the dressing room last summer. Instead the club seems keen to make the Arsenal mistake, which was to get rid of the Viera, Gilberto, Henry generation and replace them with talented kids who had nobody to lead them and help them turn that talent into trophies. I think the impact on this squad of signing a couple of 30 year old serial winners would be huge.

 

[Treble]

Agree with both of you on the experience point and that's the biggest issue to come out of the post-Fergie years. Moyes and Van Gaal moved a lot of players out of United and in that process we lost the leaders in the dressing room.

We used to have a host of multiple title winners in our dressing room. The only players who have won the Premier League twice at United today are Smalling and Valencia, 2011 and 2013.

Our team is so brittle. 2018 is the first year that has seen us come back from 2-0 down since 2013, right? The comebacks we saw last weekend, at City and at Palace, simply did not happen under Moyes and Van Gaal. When we went behind we lost. The way we go from looking all at sea to looking dangerous after scoring a goal shows the mentality of the team is nowhere near what it should be.

The help Rooney and Ronaldo had, from experienced players who could shoulder the weight of expectation and give them the freedom to express themselves, doesn't really exist in this team. The loss of players like Rio, Vidic, Evra, Fletcher, Carrick etc. has been a huge loss. Some of the guys that went may not have been the most talented but you could bring them on in a testy game e.g. West Ham away just to bring some calm to proceedings. To be the one that says 'hey, don't worry been there, done that we'll get through this' to the younger players.

It was so obvious why Mourinho wanted to bring more experience into the dressing room last summer. Instead the club seems keen to make the Arsenal mistake, which was to get rid of the Viera, Gilberto, Henry generation and replace them with talented kids who had nobody to lead them and help them turn that talent into trophies. I think the impact on this squad of signing a couple of 30 year old serial winners would be huge.

Shame then that Jose shipped Rooney out. We should have offerd him a new contract. His experience was so valuable. Same with Zlatan. His experience helped us finish 6th. Which was great. Imagine where would we have finished without Zlatan that season! 10th or maybe even 15th.

Basically, we should offer a new long contract to Matic. The guy has won the league twice!

 

[SER19]

Why would our next manager HAVE to be 'young'.

 

[Ban]

Nice words by a club legend. Well in Wayne.

 

[Adisa]

At which club does theanager not take responsibility for performances? Anyway, there's enough blame to throw around.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

Its like walking into a food fight and blaming it all on the person who threw the fifth pie.

 

[King7Eric]

Wise words from another man who overstayed his welcome at the club due to his over inflated ego.

So he should have gone up to Woodward and said please tear up my contract since I'm not good enough?? Its the managers who kept playing him, when Jose used him sparingly in his final season we never heard him whining about it publicly. No one is gonna voluntarily ask to be removed from a job they love and pays well, its upto the management to make that decision.

 

[breakout67]

Of course Mourinho is a scapegoat. This appointment was out of convenience, and the right time to get him was after SAF retired. Instead we hired Moyes and only got Mourinho out of chance after his worst season in his whole career.

Mourinho was a prime candidate to replace SAF, he would win a few trophies and leave in 3-4 years. That would allow the club to setup a more continental structure where the manager is actually a coach and the team building is based on a long term plan.

It took them 4-5 years to realize that there is only one SAF. No manager can have so much power at a club and be a top team for so long except him.

 

[FrantikChicken]

If Jose stays, our entire starting XI and possibly 2-3 bench players will leave. While many won't be a loss, there are some we would like to keep, and it is also not feasible to buy 15 new players in one window, just can't be done.

Point being, this is only heading one way. Next season, it won't be Jose in charge even if he wins the premier league for us this season.

I'm really not sure how you've come to this conclusion?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Each manager has brought his own set of problems. It's not like the issues you can identify (for each post-Fergie manager) are imaginary, or simply inevitable consequences of a "core problem" (what is that? Woodward? Voodoo?) that remains unsolved.

Part of the problem is - indeed - that the succession of post-Fergie managers has been illogical, clearly not in accordance with a long-term plan: anyone can see this. You don't sack Moyes, hire LVG, sack him before his contract has run out, and replace him with Mourinho - while all the time following a long-term strategy.

That doesn't mean any of those three did a good job. It doesn't mean they weren't actually out of their depth or past their prime.

A) There was no strategy. Moyes was hired because Fergie recommended him, LVG and Mourinho because they were big names - and available.

B) None of them did a very good job with the means at their disposal.

Both could be true. It's not "core problem" versus "crap manager in charge".

 

[Smores]

Shame then that Jose shipped Rooney out. We should have offerd him a new contract. His experience was so valuable. Same with Zlatan. His experience helped us finish 6th. Which was great. Imagine where would we have finished without Zlatan that season! 10th or maybe even 15th.

Basically, we should offer a new long contract to Matic. The guy has won the league twice!

Such smarts, who can argue with this level of logic.

You've convinced me, experience is bullshit and any player who says otherwise from personal experience must be an idiot.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

Rooney really doesn't have any incentive to defend the manager that finally pulled the trigger. I can't stand this self-congratulatory trend of know-nothings dismissing the opinion of anyone that ever failed at anything, or made a mistake. Rooney is our club's record goal scorer, and as much as I groaned at times watching him decline, he is more entitled to an opinion about this than any of us. Feel free to disagree with him, but your opinion is not justified by the fact Wayne is no longer a great player.

Keane says the players need to step up... suddenly we all love Mick McCarthy. Giggs says United need to stick with Mourinho... what does he know, he lost a game when he was our manager, and was on LVG's coaching staff. Rooney says Mourinho is an easy target... well he was stealing a living from this club. Neville... Etc. Etc.

Some of you people need to take a look at yourselves. Disagree, that's your right, and this forum is at its best when there's a bit of banter... but just having a go at every explayer who doesn't agree with your opinion is boring, contributes nothing, and just a bit sad. That's our record goal scorer, our most decorated player, and one of the finest captains this club has ever had. They're entitled to their opinions too.

 

[Sassy Colin]

What's it got to do with him?

 

[Gasolin]

Jose had been sacked by Chelsea for nearly getting them relegated when we signed him.
Everyone was saying the players got him sacked that it was all down to the players then 3 years later and here we are it’s all on the players again.

It was because the players from Chelsea said themselves they made it happen.

 

[Minimalist]

(1) It's the Mirror so the Caf knows better than to read that shite.
(2) ...

 

[Kapardin]

I'm really not sure how you've come to this conclusion?

Players who will definitely want to leave - Shaw, De Gea, Pogba, Possibly Sanchez (salary might keep him going though), Martial, Lindelof, Bailly, Jones, Valencia.

Probables - Herrera (Not getting gametime), Lukaku (if he feels this system isn't helping his game), Pereira (ditto).

Unlikely, but could think about moving - Fred (if he continues to receive limited game time), Smalling (continued subtle digs at our CBs).

Now, obviously some of these players are not good and we want them to leave (like Valencia, Jones...Some even think Lukaku). Some like Herrera who don't get game time could be construed as part of a normal system of ins and outs. But simply pointing out how many players have just causes to not want to play anymore for Jose. Not saying they will all be allowed to leave of course.