Mokgadi Caster Semenya | IAAF to tell court she should be classified as biologically male

[ivaldo]

So what's your view on her? Should she be able to compete?

Why is Caster Semenya at the centre of controversy?
Even before she stormed to gold in the 2009 World Championships 800m as an 18-year-old, Semenya’s gender was being called into question. News she had been forced to take a gender test leaked out before the championships and the controversy has continued to dog her ever since.

What is hyperandrogenism?
A condition where levels of testosterone are elevated above an arbitrary level in women, giving them characteristics found far more commonly in men. Semenya was deemed to have such elevated levels by the International Association of Athletics Federations.

How much of an advantage does it give her?
A significant one. Semenya ran the 22nd fastest 800m of all time last month, and the fastest for more than eight years, when she clocked one minute, 55.33 seconds at the Diamond League meeting in Monaco. No other female athlete has broken 1min 56sec for almost five years.

Watcha think?

 

[Sassy Colin]

Does she have a weewee?

 

[ivaldo]

Does she have a weewee?

She has internal testes.

 

[BAMSOLA]

I think the fact that she is not the fastest female of all time and owns every single record ever set by a female within a reasonable distance of her own main field tells its own story.

If she has an advantage then it still isn't enough to make her the most successful female short distance racer of all time.

 

[ivaldo]

I think the fact that she is not the fastest female of all time and owns every single record ever set by a female within a reasonable distance of her own main field tells its own story.

If she has an advantage then it still isn't enough to make her the most successful female short distance racer of all time.

So to play devil's advocate it's OK for competitors to have unfair advantages as long as it doesn't make them the greatest ever?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

She looks like a man simply put. Are there limits as to how much testosterone a female athlete can have though? It seems like a real grey area.

 

[marukomu]

She came in our pub once.
She walked over and dropped one in my beer glass.
I said "Hey, you fart in my Whitbread?"
She said, "No, I'm Caster Semenya."

 

[ivaldo]

She looks like a man simply put. Are there limits as to how much testosterone a female athlete can have though? It seems like a real grey area.

It truly is, she was born without ovaries or womb, genetically she's more akin to a male than a female but crucially she identifies and was raised as a female. I might be wrong but I think there used to be a testosterone limit that men and females would have to fall into in order to compete, I'm not sure if it exists any more.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

She looks like a man simply put. Are there limits as to how much testosterone a female athlete can have though? It seems like a real grey area.

Putting it mildly!

The way society seems to be getting more and more accepting of gender fluidity means this will be a bigger and bigger issue in the years to come. We've already seen one post-op transsexual beating up women in MMA. Stands to reason the same will happen in other sports. I've no idea what the solution is. Scrupulous monitoring of testosterone levels seems like a terrible way to ensure fairness in any sport. There's far too much variation among "normal" athletes anyway.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Putting it mildly!

The way society seems to be getting more and more accepting of gender fluidity means this will be a bigger and bigger issue in the years to come. We've already seen one post-op transsexual beating up women in MMA. Stands to reason the same will happen in other sports. I've no idea what the solution is. Scrupulous monitoring of testosterone levels seems like a terrible way to ensure fairness in any sport. There's far too much variation among "normal" athletes anyway.

I think your last point is key. Don't most of the top female athletes have abnormally high testosterone anyway?

 

[Globule]

So to play devil's advocate it's OK for competitors to have unfair advantages as long as it doesn't make them the greatest ever?

Perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong, but it sounds to me like Bamsola is pointing the finger of suspicion at those that set those records.

 

[ivaldo]

Putting it mildly!

The way society seems to be getting more and more accepting of gender fluidity means this will be a bigger and bigger issue in the years to come. We've already seen one post-op transsexual beating up women in MMA. Stands to reason the same will happen in other sports. I've no idea what the solution is. Scrupulous monitoring of testosterone levels seems like a terrible way to ensure fairness in any sport. There's far too much variation among "normal" athletes anyway.

The problem is the definitive boundaries we need in order to hold seperate female and male competitions. The only way this problem could be solved would be to remove the gender aspect of sport entirely and having both men and women competing the same sport. Of course we will see a dramatic fall in women being able to compete on the highest level in many disciplines.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The problem is the definitive boundaries we need in order to hold seperate female and male competitions. The only way this problem could be solved would be to remove the gender aspect of sport entirely and having both men and women competing the same sport. Of course we will see a dramatic fall in women being able to compete on the highest level in many disciplines.

Are there any women that could even get close to the top level in men's sport?

 

[Manny]

It's unfortunate for her, but it would massively unfair to her competitors if she was allowed to compete.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It's unfortunate for her, but it would massively unfair to her competitors if she was allowed to compete.

She is allowed to compete and is widely expected to win easily.

 

[ivaldo]

Are there any women that could even get close to the top level in men's sport?

Not in physical sports but it would make the playing field 'fair'. The reason for separate competition is to give women a chance in physical sports, allowing someone who physically speaking is basically male negates that.

But then we need to look at it from a moral and ethical aspect, should she have been subjected to these enforced tests in the first place?

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I'd say yes. I mean Shaq was pretty rubbish at basketball but was 7 foot tall and 300 pounds which made him awesome. That's just one example of a huge natural advantage.

 

[JPRouve]

Not in physical sports but it would make the playing field 'fair'. The reason for separate competition is to give women a chance in physical sports, allowing someone who physically speaking is basically male negates that.

But then we need to look at it from a moral and ethical aspect, should she have been subjected to these enforced tests in the first place?

If they have a doubt about her gender, they should check.

 

[BAMSOLA]

So to play devil's advocate it's OK for competitors to have unfair advantages as long as it doesn't make them the greatest ever?

Depends what you define as an unfair advantage, I don't think she does have an unfair advantage but she does have an advantage, however as Pogue outlines in his post there are some very wild variations of testosterone between "normal" athletes anyway so those advantages have always been there.

 

[Rams]

Does she have a weewee?

I read somewhere that she doesn’t have any ovaries.



….anyway, I wud.

 

[K2K]

The scutiny has been pretty hard on her on an emotional level .

But I think she has gotten herself in a good frame of mind, and will shut out the noise. There is little else she can do. The CAS has basically said she can race, after a legal challenge on similar grounds by an Indian Athlete.

 

[ivaldo]

Depends what you define as an unfair advantage, I don't think she does have an unfair advantage but she does have an advantage, however as Pogue outlines in his post there are some very wild variations of testosterone between "normal" athletes anyway so those advantages have always been there.

It's an unfair advantage, she produces 3 times the amount of testosterone as other women because of her genetic makeup.

If they have a doubt about her gender, they should check.

Because she looks a bit manly?

 

[JPRouve]

Because she looks a bit manly?

It wasn't just looks, iirc the problem came from her biological passports.

 

[marukomu]

Does she have a boyfriend?
Her name is an anagram of CRY AS EAT SEMEN.
If she does, then she might be a bloke.

 

[GBBQ]

It's an unfair advantage, she produces 3 times the amount of testosterone as other women because of her genetic makeup.

Yes but don't most top athletes have some sort of freakish genetic makeup that allows them to stand out ahead of 6 billion? Do you think Phelps should be stripped of his gold because of his arm span, ankle movement or producing 50% less lactic acid than his competitors?

 

[Nighteyes]

How do you decide whats an unfair advantage? It's a natural advantage she has over her peers and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Someone mentioned Shaq earilier in the thread. In Cricket you have Murali who had a handicap which allowed him to bowl a certain type of ball, which would be considered illegal for 95% of the other bowlers.

Its not supposed to be fair. Lots of people have physical advantages. It's up to you to make most of it.

 

[ivaldo]

It wasn't just looks, iirc the problem came from her biological passports.

Is that grounds to openly question the gender of a person?

 

[ivaldo]

Yes but don't most top athletes have some sort of freakish genetic makeup that allows them to stand out ahead of 6 billion? Do you think Phelps should be stripped of his gold because of his arm span, ankle movement or producing 50% less lactic acid than his competitors?

Crucially those differences aren't based on gender which is a very definitive parameter. It's as definitive as weight in boxing, genetically she falls short on those parameters.

 

[JPRouve]

Is that grounds to openly question the gender of a person?

Yes, when it explains the manly level of testosterone, iirc she was suspected of doping but she said that she was always like that. So they checked and she is like that without dopping, after that they had to determine in which category she had to compete, men or women.

 

[GBBQ]

Crucially those differences aren't based on gender which is a very definitive parameter. It's as definitive as weight in boxing, genetically she falls short on those parameters.

But in a sport that is essentially defined by being male or female there is no opportunity to classify her any other way as has been confirmed by CAS.

Her testosterone levels are lower than a mans (let alone a genetically lucky man) and crucially having such advantages still take a hell of a lot of training and effort to maximise.

 

[ivaldo]

Yes, when it explains the manly level of testosterone, iirc she was suspected of doping but she said that she was always like that. So they checked and she is like that without dopping, after that they had to determine in which category she had to compete, men or women.

Some credible research suggests as much as 1/2000 humans are born with a gender abnormality, it would make sense for some sort of test to be put in place for everyone. To effectively suspend her from competing for a year os incredibly harsh.

 

[ivaldo]

But in a sport that is essentially defined by being male or female there is no opportunity to classify her any other way as has been confirmed by CAS.

Her testosterone levels are lower than a mans (let alone a genetically lucky man) and crucially having such advantages still take a hell of a lot of training and effort to maximise.

But the very reason for gender specific competition to allow females a realistic chance of competing at the highest level. Having someone who is closer to a man than a women compete in female competition kind of makes the segregation pointless.

 

[JPRouve]

Some credible research suggests as much as 1/2000 humans are born with a gender abnormality, it would make sense for some sort of test to be put in place for everyone. To effectively suspend her from competing for a year os incredibly harsh.

It's not harsh, they didn't know where she should compete, with men or women.

 

[GBBQ]

But the very reason for gender specific competition to allow females a realistic chance of competing at the highest level. Having someone who is closer to a man than a women compete in female competition kind of makes the segregation pointless.

But this then is a failing of the Olympics or amateur athletes in general. If you cannot be properly assigned to option A or B through no fault of your own then what can you do? The IAAF believed that she should take counter-balancing hormones and CAS deemed this unfair.

Its not that it hasn't been reviewed its that the decision makes the result a foregone conclusion but this happens in sport from time to time.

 

[Penna]

I believe that there were measures in place for a while which required female athletes to maintain testosterone levels below a certain level. Athletes like Caster had to take drugs to do this and her performances were affected.

That rule has now been removed and she's breaking records again. And no, she doesn't have a boyfriend, she's married to another woman.

 

[K2K]

Does she have a boyfriend?
Her name is an anagram of CRY AS EAT SEMEN.
If she does, then she might be a bloke.

Plot twist: She has a wife

 

[jojojo]

In every day life, I doubt she'd have drawn much attention.

It's only in the context of sport (and medical issues that are personal to her) that her gender would have been questioned or seen as significant.

Of course her sporting gender had to be questioned. There are very few sports where men and women can compete directly and still have a contest. It was unfortunate the way it was done, but that's the nature of test cases. In olden days it would have been a quick visual check. These days we can keep on testing beyond that and it reveals the discrepancies. I suspect as we carry on testing for PEDs and everything else we'll find even more anomalies.

If we talk in terms of a single factor like testosterone, she's not in the standard range. But what were they going to do? Give her her own category at the Paralympics? I guess to me it seems like CAS took the reasonable stance.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I believe that there were measures in place for a while which required female athletes to maintain testosterone levels below a certain level. Athletes like Caster had to take drugs to do this and her performances were affected.

That rule has now been removed and she's breaking records again. And no, she doesn't have a boyfriend, she's married to another woman.

Setting out testosterone levels that are and aren't acceptable is impossible to regulate. Apart from the massive inter and intra-individual variability it creates this crazy scenario where aging male athletes can legitimately claim to be suffering from TDS (even though a decline in testosterone production is a normal part of aging) and get a doctor to prescribe them supplements to bring them back to "normal" again. This has been a big issue in MMA where you're suddenly seeing huge performance boosts from men in their mid to late thirties.

 

[K2K]

In every day life, I doubt she'd have drawn much attention.

It's only in the context of sport (and medical issues that are personal to her) that her gender would have been questioned or seen as significant.

Of course her sporting gender had to be questioned. There are very few sports where men and women can compete directly and still have a contest. It was unfortunate the way it was done, but that's the nature of test cases. In olden days it would have been a quick visual check. These days we can keep on testing beyond that and it reveals the discrepancies. I suspect as we carry on testing for PEDs and everything else we'll find even more anomalies.

If we talk in terms of a single factor like testosterone, she's not in the standard range. But what were they going to do? Give her her own category at the Paralympics? I guess to me it seems like CAS took the reasonable stance.

That magazine spread was so ill advised,she shouldnt have done it.

I think she should be comfortable in what and who she is,she was never the girly type.

 

[Penna]

I agree with you Pogue, it's all too complex to try to arbitrate and if someone is born with a particular make-up they shouldn't have to change it. Caster has been brought up as a woman and should be allowed to compete as such.

I'm not sure about transgender athletes. That seems a whole different issue.