Mokgadi Caster Semenya | IAAF to tell court she should be classified as biologically male

[Pogue Mahone]

That magazine spread was so ill advised,she shouldnt have done it.

I think she should be comfortable in what and who she is,she was never the girly type.

Do you know her that well? Or are you talking biologically?

She looks great in that photo shoot. Why shouldn't she have done it?

 

[jojojo]

That magazine spread was so ill advised,she shouldnt have done it.

I think she should be comfortable in what and who she is,she was never the girly type.

That's a fair comment, and after the intense scrutiny of that period, she did go back to living her own life again. It's just significant in that it's a reminder of how much of our understanding of gender is superficial.

It's not clear what the alternative to allowing her to compete as a woman is. Intriguingly the BBC says that she's not only not the only intersex athlete in the games, she's probably not even the only one in her event. Of course, it might be the last time it happens - if she wins it adds to the evidence for a rule change and either bans or hormone level limits.

 

[K2K]

Do you know her that well? Or are you talking biologically?

She looks great in that photo shoot. Why shouldn't she have done it?

Not personally, but from South African media reports, it was mentioned that she didnt particulaly like it but was almost forced into it after the "she's a man " controversy.

It was also in a very good Guardian article recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...emenya-olympic-favourite-and-ticking-timebomb

 

[K2K]

That's a fair comment, and after the intense scrutiny of that period, she did go back to living her own life again. It's just significant in that it's a reminder of how much of our understanding of gender is superficial.

It's not clear what the alternative to allowing her to compete as a woman is. Intriguingly the BBC says that she's not only not the only intersex athlete in the games, she's probably not even the only one in her event. Of course, it might be the last time it happens - if she wins it adds to the evidence for a rule change and either bans or hormone level limits.

The IAAF has proposed testosterone suppressing medication, but the CAS has struck this down for now.

On 27 July 2015 Semenya was liberated further when Dutee Chand won her landmark case at Cas. The 19-year-old Indian sprinter was cleared to run competitively after her lawyers argued that her exclusion on the basis that sex-verification tests, relying primarily on levels of testosterone, were discriminatory. All regulations around hyperandrogenism were suspended until July 2017. Semenya was free to run naturally again – without testosterone-suppressing medication.

 

[K2K]

Interestingly, the previous record holder went through similar accusations:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/08/unbreakable.html

 

[jojojo]

That's what I mean. If she wins, then they will have even more reason go back to the rule book, especially as there are other athletes competing who are in the same situation. The better they do, the faster the controls/bans will come in.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not personally, but from South African media reports, it was mentioned that she didnt particulaly like it but was almost forced into it after the "she's a man " controversy.

It was also in a very good Guardian article recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...emenya-olympic-favourite-and-ticking-timebomb

Ah. I didn't realise that. Does seem ill-advised in that context.

Also, flipping hell!

But they also agree Semenya will be confronted by an invasive scrutiny on her alone – even when there are “open secrets” that three of the Olympic 800m finalists might be intersex athletes.

 

[jojojo]

I'm not sure about transgender athletes. That seems a whole different issue.

I think it's a very different issue, I don't think it's possible to separate birth gender from sporting gender if top level women's sport is going to survive.. The Paralympics is now struggling with definitions of disability, because self-identification goes wrong, and the bigger the competition the more wrong it goes.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think it's a very different issue, I don't think it's possible to separate birth gender from sporting gender if top level women's sport is going to survive.. The Paralympics is now struggling with definitions of disability, because self-identification goes wrong, and the bigger the competition the more wrong it goes.

Maybe they should use the same approach as they use when it comes to deciding which country you play for. Once you get your first cap for one team you can't decide to play for another!

 

[Annihilate Now!]

She's a woman, thus she should be allowed to compete with other women.

Seems more reasonable then exclusion just 'cos there's something a little different about her.

 

[ivaldo]

She's a woman, thus she should be allowed to compete with other women.

Seems more reasonable then exclusion just 'cos there's something a little different about her.

It's what defines her as a woman that's the issue.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

She's a woman, thus she should be allowed to compete with other women.

Seems more reasonable then exclusion just 'cos there's something a little different about her.

Not quite that simple. She's technically intersex. She self identifies as a woman but using that as the prime differentiator is a slippery slope, for obvious reasons.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Not quite that simple. She's technically intersex. She self identifies as a woman but using that as the prime differentiator is a slippery slope, for obvious reasons.

She's also identified as a woman by CAS, and - currently - the IAFF, who obviously did the gender test and have the results, and still allow her to compete.

They probably should have kept the upper limit for testosterone levels in place, as it probably was the fairest way to level the playing field, but as that has been over-ruled, she can't just not be allowed to compete, as that would ruin the entire idea behind the inclusiveness that is the Olympics... So that just leaves creating a whole other gender group... which isn't really feasible,

 

[Skills]

I'd say yes. I mean Shaq was pretty rubbish at basketball but was 7 foot tall and 300 pounds which made him awesome. That's just one example of a huge natural advantage.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

 

[Scrumpet]

She's about to run in a heat if anyone is interested

 

[K2K]

That was impressive pacing.

 

[paulscholes18]

Should be an easy gold for her

 

[jojojo]

She's about to run in a heat if anyone is interested

Based on the utterly unscientific and not statistically significant evidence of her in that race compared to the others. She looks like a woman athlete. Intriguingly, she doesn't look like a woman 800m runner though. If you see what I mean. Now of course I want to know who are the others whose gender is contested in the race.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So to play devil's advocate it's OK for competitors to have unfair advantages as long as it doesn't make them the greatest ever?

What exactly is the advantage here?

 

[RexHamilton]

What exactly is the advantage here?

In Semenya's case? Extraordinarilly high levels of testosterone.

Testosterone is one of the manin reasons men are much better athletes than women. There are many, many men at a high level of athletics, swimming etc. that post better times than the absolute pinnacle of the womens games. Testosterone is one of the factors in this.
It's why from about 12/13 years of age, girls and boys no longer compete against each other in sports, in general.

Should this stop her from competing? That's not for me to say, but she has a natural advantage. But that's the key. It is natural.

 

[Bubz27]

Do you really believe Shaq was rubbish at basketball? Define basketball? Because he was an excellent centre.

De Gea is rubbish at football, just an excellent keeper?

Also @GBBQ what is this about Phelps ankles?

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Do you really believe Shaq was rubbish at basketball? Define basketball? Because he was an excellent centre.

De Gea is rubbish at football, just an excellent keeper?

Also @GBBQ what is this about Phelps ankles?

But would he of been an excellent center if he wasn't tall and strong? That's my original point.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

For the record I love Shaq, I had the magics 32 jersey at school.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

In Semenya's case? Extraordinarily high levels of testosterone.

Testosterone is one of the main reasons men are much better athletes than women. There are many, many men at a high level of athletics, swimming etc. that post better times than the absolute pinnacle of the womens games. Testosterone is one of the factors in this.
It's why from about 12/13 years of age, girls and boys no longer compete against each other in sports, in general.

Should this stop her from competing? That's not for me to say, but she has a natural advantage. But that's the key. It is natural.

Wasn't that reason and this case specifically did not succeed? CAS rules that there was no evidence that testo improves performance.

 

[Bubz27]

But would he of been an excellent center if he wasn't tall and strong? That's my original point.

I get what you're saying. Obviously he wouldn't have.

But Semenyas case is more than being and tall and strong.

 

[RedTiger]

It's an unfair advantage, she produces 3 times the amount of testosterone as other women because of her genetic makeup.

Well the genetic make up of West African origin sprinters mean they have shorter calves allowing for quicker strides, should black west Africans be banned from competing?

 

[Manny]

Wasn't that reason and this case specifically did not succeed? CAS rules that there was no evidence that testo improves performance.

If that's true then someone is not doing their job properly.

 

[sincher]

I think she has to be allowed to compete. Especially when there are still so many deliberately cheating. She definitely does have a biological advantage but I cannot see anything sensible that could or should be done to change it or disqualify her.

 

[ivaldo]

Well the genetic make up of West African origin sprinters mean they have shorter calves allowing for quicker strides, should black west Africans be banned from competing?

If West Africans and whites competed in seperate events for the purpose of fair competition and they discovered a sprinter in the white event was a black albino then yes. As it happens there's no segregation between the two, do you see the difference? There's a specific women's event to give women the oppotunity to compete at a high level, having what is in essence a man competing in that event therefore makes it unfair.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If that's true then someone is not doing their job properly.

From a brief Google search, I get the point that this is still debated heavily and no consensus yet.

- Short term effects (as in a quick dose before a match/event) may not be useful as testo works in long run.
- Extended use of testo-steroids does increase muscle mass and strength...but it does not necessarily convert into sports performance.
- In many sports (eg, distance running) having muscle mass is detrimental, so more testo may mean negative impact.

So I don't think we can just make a generic statement that having testo is an advantage. It has lots of other variables that affect the outcome.

 

[ivaldo]

I think she has to be allowed to compete. Especially when there are still so many deliberately cheating. She definitely does have a biological advantage but I cannot see anything sensible that could or should be done to change it or disqualify her.

I dont think anyone is debating whether she should be able to compete or not, it's whether she should compete in the men's or women's.

 

[RexHamilton]

Wasn't that reason and this case specifically did not succeed? CAS rules that there was no evidence that testo improves performance.

Well, I've not studied it and I know this is anecdotal, but when forced to take testosterone suppresants, he times slowed drastically. Since that rule was scrapped until after these games, her times have been back to levels where she is 1/12 to win gold here and expected to break the 800m world record this year.

 

[K2K]

Well, I've not studied it and I know this is anecdotal, but when forced to take testosterone suppresants, he times slowed drastically. Since that rule was scrapped until after these games, her times have been back to levels where she is 1/12 to win gold here and expected to break the 800m world record this year.

Reading that guardian article,it was more than just testosterone supplements that affected her perfomances. Her mental state was in disarray and she kinda fell of the wagon at the time. She comes from a rural part of South Africa and the worldwide scrutiny is like nothing she had ever faced before. She was just 19 when all this happened too.

It was when she changed coaches,moved to a quieter city and simply focused on athletics when things improved for her. How do you quantify for something like that? That's why this case isn't so black and white.

 

[Penna]

Reading that guardian article,it was more than just testosterone supplements that affected her perfomances. Her mental state was in disarray and she kinda fell of the wagon at the time. She comes from a rural part of South Africa and the worldwide scrutiny is like nothing she had ever faced before. She was just 19 when all this happened too.

It was when she changed coaches,moved to a quieter city and simply focused on athletics when things improved for her. How do you quantify for something like that? That's why this case isn't so black and white.

This is the problem now for her. Many things could affect her performance as with any other athlete, but people will only ever focus on her testosterone levels. She's not cheating, she's simply made that way, but I doubt if she'll ever be able to properly enjoy any victory she has.

 

[Nighteyes]

In Semenya's case? Extraordinarilly high levels of testosterone.

Testosterone is one of the manin reasons men are much better athletes than women. There are many, many men at a high level of athletics, swimming etc. that post better times than the absolute pinnacle of the womens games. Testosterone is one of the factors in this.
It's why from about 12/13 years of age, girls and boys no longer compete against each other in sports, in general.

Should this stop her from competing? That's not for me to say, but she has a natural advantage. But that's the key. It is natural.

Pretty much this.

And given it's natural there's nothing stopping her from competing.

 

[K2K]

This is the problem now for her. Many things could affect her performance as with any other athlete, but people will only ever focus on her testosterone levels. She's not cheating, she's simply made that way, but I doubt if she'll ever be able to properly enjoy any victory she has.

I think she has gotten emotionally tougher.

Instead of being strained by the scrutiny, she just takes it in her stride like the old United Fergie teams used to.

She also has massive support back home and will be quite inspired by Wayde Van Niekerk's exploits earlier in the week.

I can see her breaking the world record too. It's all she can do now.

 

[Manny]

From a brief Google search, I get the point that this is still debated heavily and no consensus yet.

- Short term effects (as in a quick dose before a match/event) may not be useful as testo works in long run.
- Extended use of testo-steroids does increase muscle mass and strength...but it does not necessarily convert into sports performance.
- In many sports (eg, distance running) having muscle mass is detrimental, so more testo may mean negative impact.

So I don't think we can just make a generic statement that having testo is an advantage. It has lots of other variables that affect the outcome.

Testosterone is beneficial in just about every sport. As far as long distance running goes, testosterone doesn't always mean bigger muscles, but it can help with being able to work harder during training, a better recovery, well being and mentality. I've seen this in other sports.

For me, Semanya definitely has an advantage here but it seems like the CAS are arguing to what extent. Which is ridiculous seeing as anti doping agencies are always looking for elevated test levels and Semanyas are three times higher.

They might as well do away with the anti doping program and let all athletes use steroids if they are going to pretend her test levels don't give her an advantage.

 

[ivaldo]

Pretty much this.

And given it's natural there's nothing stopping her from competing.

Testes and a lack of ovaries and womb naturally makes her closer to a male than female.

 

[sincher]

I dont think anyone is debating whether she should be able to compete or not, it's whether she should compete in the men's or women's.

The women's.