Can Nagelsmann coach a team well defensively? From our 2 games, Leipzig looked woefully exposed at the back. Even last night, if we had been anything except crap, we could have easily scored 4 or 5.
Nagelsmann, Rose and Hasenhuttl
- Thread starter Foxbatt
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Or they could have been up by 4 goals by half time. Thing is he completely nullified us. He knew where to hit us and it worked. What more do you want from him from that group ?
I would want some defensively solidity from any manager we get in, leaving that sort of space in the league on a regular basis would be a recipe for disaster.
Noone will guarantee you that , atleast from that 3. If we are talking about defensive solidarity, Allegri is our man.
Anyone would improve United.
Borussia MGDB looks well coached whenever I see them play and Plea and Thuram developed nicely which bodes well for Rashford, Greenwood, Martial and Diallo. Also he might bring Neuhaus and he looks like a lovely fit as the partner for Fred in a pivot or with VDB against weaker teams.
Looking at how Southampton play, if Hasshenhuttl ran the same system here:
------------Rashford------Greenwood------- (Cavani, Martial)
----Bruno-------------------------------RAM------ (Diallo, James)
-------------VDB/Fred-----#6------------------ - (VDB/Fred, McTominay, Garner)
Telles------------------------------------------RB (Wan-Bissaka, Williams, Shaw or Alvaro)
--------------LCB-------Maguire----------------- (Lindelof, Tuanzebe, Mengi)
-----------------Henderson----------------------- (Backup Keeper)
would be my expectation of what he'd want. Similar to what we need anyways, but maybe we buy a left-footed #10 type like Mata as an alternative option to Diallo, unless he just wants to buy Ward-Prowse (the only Southampton player who makes sense for us to have come with him) or another #8 and have Van De Beek in that role. My guess is he'd want a technically stronger alternative to Wan-Bissaka and would maybe show affinity for Henderson because of his passing potential compared to De Gea, but he'd probably be fine with having both around and letting them fight it out.
Feels like this would work. We have younger strikers who don't have the skills/strength/experience to play alone, Bruno is not dissimilar to a Stuart Armstrong type while obviously being much much better and guys like VDB, Fred, James, McTominay and Williams (rumoured to be wanted by Southampton) all seem like they'd take well to high pressing. Not sure it's a good fit for Wan-Bissaka based on their fullbacks and the need to provide a wide threat, but he needs to improve that anyways unless we end up using him as Kyle Walker type 3rd CB/RB/RCB/RCM Pep favoured hybrid - or Mourinho style sit back while the other fullback goes hog wild - with Diallo, James or Pellistri wider out right and Diallo is the favourite for that job and will wanna cut in anyways so we're back to needing crossing and width from the spot.
Looking at how Southampton play, if Hasshenhuttl ran the same system here:
------------Rashford------Greenwood------- (Cavani, Martial)
----Bruno-------------------------------RAM------ (Diallo, James)
-------------VDB/Fred-----#6------------------ - (VDB/Fred, McTominay, Garner)
Telles------------------------------------------RB (Wan-Bissaka, Williams, Shaw or Alvaro)
--------------LCB-------Maguire----------------- (Lindelof, Tuanzebe, Mengi)
-----------------Henderson----------------------- (Backup Keeper)
would be my expectation of what he'd want. Similar to what we need anyways, but maybe we buy a left-footed #10 type like Mata as an alternative option to Diallo, unless he just wants to buy Ward-Prowse (the only Southampton player who makes sense for us to have come with him) or another #8 and have Van De Beek in that role. My guess is he'd want a technically stronger alternative to Wan-Bissaka and would maybe show affinity for Henderson because of his passing potential compared to De Gea, but he'd probably be fine with having both around and letting them fight it out.
Feels like this would work. We have younger strikers who don't have the skills/strength/experience to play alone, Bruno is not dissimilar to a Stuart Armstrong type while obviously being much much better and guys like VDB, Fred, James, McTominay and Williams (rumoured to be wanted by Southampton) all seem like they'd take well to high pressing. Not sure it's a good fit for Wan-Bissaka based on their fullbacks and the need to provide a wide threat, but he needs to improve that anyways unless we end up using him as Kyle Walker type 3rd CB/RB/RCB/RCM Pep favoured hybrid - or Mourinho style sit back while the other fullback goes hog wild - with Diallo, James or Pellistri wider out right and Diallo is the favourite for that job and will wanna cut in anyways so we're back to needing crossing and width from the spot.
Another way to approach that question is if Neglesmann currently had the budget Man Utd has, would he have better defensive players? He is not really at a club that can go out and sprinkle world class players in the forward, mid field, and defence. I would rather look to see if he is a good judge of talent and can he get the most out of that talent?
DoF - Paul Mitchell.
Coach - Rose or Naggelsman.
Coach - Rose or Naggelsman.
Give him a 50 year contract
People tend to forget that now at utd player power is more than the manager. You can get any manager you like but if the players dont buy into his philosophy then what will happen ? Its not like the glazers will allow the manager to fire these players. Drilling players at man utd is different than at another smaller club. With fergie the players knew that if they got on the wrong side of the manager they're gone, but post fergie thats not the case anymore.
yes this is a huge mistake. SAF always says that the manager is the most important person. Woodward is a dickhead for not letting Jose get rid of Pogba or whomever does not accept the authority of the manager. I would say the same thing for Ole too if he wants to get rid of a player who is refusing to accept his authority.
True.
All three coaches could out do each other on any given day as long as they have the tools at their disposal.
I watch Gladbach and RBL games every week. And Nagelsmann has the best squad at his disposal without a doubt in comparison and that's thanks to the finances of the Red Bull group and the work of Ralf Rangnick. Rose has the worst squad at his disposal but works under a very competent DoF in Max Eberl who makes a little go a long way to keep the club competitive. Both coaches have excellent understanding of transitions from the first phase of the build up to the attacking phase. They're also very knowledgeable on implementing a game plan to close space and squeeze the space via a high line. Nagelsmann has the better players in that regard and hence his team should achieve better results due to the likes of Konate, Upamecano etc being considerably better at providing defensive balance compared to their Gladbach counterparts.
Hassenhuttl I'm not gonna talk too much about because most in here know about him due to his work at Soton. But what I will add to that is under Hassenhuttl, RB Leipzig recorded their highest finish of 2nd place which is the best in their short history.
Another coach who should be under consideration is Peter Bosz the ex Ajax coach who is currently coaching Leverkusen. His understanding of transitions, vertical plays is also very impressive and IMO he has been very impressive this season even after losing key players like Havertz and Volland. People criticise him for getting sacked at BVB but he took that job at a time when BVB were going through a bad patch.
The key thing is that we hire a coach who is brave and adopts a attack minded approach and all of the coaches mentioned above are exactly that. Since Fergie retired we have been playing reactive football for nigh on 7/8 years. And signing one of the above would mean we go back to the mantra of Busby and Fergie where we play front foot football.
I watch Gladbach and RBL games every week. And Nagelsmann has the best squad at his disposal without a doubt in comparison and that's thanks to the finances of the Red Bull group and the work of Ralf Rangnick. Rose has the worst squad at his disposal but works under a very competent DoF in Max Eberl who makes a little go a long way to keep the club competitive. Both coaches have excellent understanding of transitions from the first phase of the build up to the attacking phase. They're also very knowledgeable on implementing a game plan to close space and squeeze the space via a high line. Nagelsmann has the better players in that regard and hence his team should achieve better results due to the likes of Konate, Upamecano etc being considerably better at providing defensive balance compared to their Gladbach counterparts.
Hassenhuttl I'm not gonna talk too much about because most in here know about him due to his work at Soton. But what I will add to that is under Hassenhuttl, RB Leipzig recorded their highest finish of 2nd place which is the best in their short history.
Another coach who should be under consideration is Peter Bosz the ex Ajax coach who is currently coaching Leverkusen. His understanding of transitions, vertical plays is also very impressive and IMO he has been very impressive this season even after losing key players like Havertz and Volland. People criticise him for getting sacked at BVB but he took that job at a time when BVB were going through a bad patch.
The key thing is that we hire a coach who is brave and adopts a attack minded approach and all of the coaches mentioned above are exactly that. Since Fergie retired we have been playing reactive football for nigh on 7/8 years. And signing one of the above would mean we go back to the mantra of Busby and Fergie where we play front foot football.
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I’d take any of them ahead of Poch. But if I could pick it would be RH.
I agree. I don't want Poch. And if we're going for someone, I would like to see one of these three with Hassenhuttl just out in front atm.
I'd also like to provide some context on Nagelsmann's time at Hoffenheim below.
Hoffenheim are owned by Dietmar Hopp who is amongst the richest people in Germany. It was thanks to his wealth that Hoffenheim got multiple promotions and eventually ended up in the German top flight. But it was Hopp's decision to hire Ralf Rangnick in 2006 which really changed the fortunes of the club and built the foundations at the club and eventually got them in the BuLi.
Nagelsmann did a great job at Hoffenheim and his coaching of the players was very good no doubt but without Hopp's wealth he wouldn't have had the tools to do aswell as he did. So Nagelsmann has now coached at two clubs but at both clubs he's had billionaire owners and a foundation built for him by Ralf Rangnick which needs to be understood.
Hoffenheim are owned by Dietmar Hopp who is amongst the richest people in Germany. It was thanks to his wealth that Hoffenheim got multiple promotions and eventually ended up in the German top flight. But it was Hopp's decision to hire Ralf Rangnick in 2006 which really changed the fortunes of the club and built the foundations at the club and eventually got them in the BuLi.
Nagelsmann did a great job at Hoffenheim and his coaching of the players was very good no doubt but without Hopp's wealth he wouldn't have had the tools to do aswell as he did. So Nagelsmann has now coached at two clubs but at both clubs he's had billionaire owners and a foundation built for him by Ralf Rangnick which needs to be understood.
I think Nagelsman is the next big coach. At Jose, Pep, Jurgen level.
He has to prove himself, but I see that kind of potential in him.
Yeah there is no doubt he would at least make us harder to score against which is maybe needed right now
Our problem is that we can't transition effectively hence our attack relies on space to run into. Our build up has been awful since the great man retired and we've been playing reactive football for too long. It's time we hired someone who sacrifices defensive stability for goals and hence exposes the oppositions vulnerabilities in a front foot approach.
Didn't he already turn down Bayern and Madrid a few years ago saying he wasn't ready to manage such a big club?
Where has this Rangnick fella not set up a foundation?
I hear his name all the time.Maybe Utd should hire Rangnick.
Who do you think best fits the bill for that
Top post mate. The only thing I would like to add is that every single one of them is more of a coach than a manager. They actually need a competent DoF and a good scouting department to get the most out of their respective teams.
As long as Woody and Judge are solely the ones in charge of our recruiting and negotiating, these coaches will face an uphill battle. This can easily be addressed by replacing Judge with Ralf Ragnick or someone of his ilk, but sadly nepotism has completely taken over and ruined our beloved club. From the Glazers giving Woody too much leeway because he helped them with the acquisition. To Woody turning a blind eye every time Judge does a masterful 4 year contract renewal for Jones to "protect the value of the asset"
Up until recently Rose would have been my top pick, but lately Ralph won me over. The man just has that United DNA in his blood. He is all about winning, not this "finish top4 nonsense". Whenever his Soton team plays they always try to assert themselves no matter who it is. Even when playing against us you could see that.
For me he is doing an even better job at Soton than Poch. Consider their squads and the people who both have to work. One has a team of average players and Ings as his star man and the other had Boruc, Lovren, Fonte, pre-injury Shaw, Wanayama, Llana, Lambert. If Poch managed to convert Spurs into a Top 3 team in England, what do you think Ralph is going to do at United?
This man is perfect for us, but sadly knowing our board we won't approach him. Instead he will end up at Arsenal/Everton/Spurs or Chelsea and take them above us. And the CAF is going to be moaning on how we missed another up and coming manager. Makes me angry just thinking about it.
As usual well explained mate. Hassenhuttl for me only because Nagelsmann would need major changes to our squad. Hassenhuttl can just get it with what we have .
I'd have no issue with any attack minded coach being given the reigns whether that be Hassenhuttl, Rose, Nagelsmann or Peter Bosz. All 4 are brave in their approach and and have a defined way of playing proactive football.
They are good shouts but somehow they have to knock Ole out of the hearts of our board first which by the sounds of things is a seriously long way from happening
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We have a solid foundation but are lost when it comes to direction due to the instability at the club post the great man retiring. Rangnick is very good at his job but his work is best suited to up and coming clubs who have lots of cash (Hoffenheim and RBL) hence him building those clubs up and providing the foundations which has also helped young up and coming coaches like Rose and Nagelsmann who have benefitted from his great work.Where has this Rangnick fella not set up a foundation?
Maybe Utd should hire Rangnick.
All we need is to have a defined play style and sign players for that play style which would give us stability and that's all that's been missing to make us compete for titles IMO. But we've made some very strange managerial appointments post Fergie which have been anything but stable due to the contrast in styles which has seen us cull the squad every 2-3 years with each managerial change.
I think you're really misrepresenting Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim. Yes they are backed by Hopp but his money was only above the rest in the below leagues and certainly did help them in their first few seasons in the BL, when they had some good players in their squad like Gustavo, Ba, Salihovic, Ibsevic and Carlos Eduardo etc.
But that squad had almost completely gone, as too their replacements like Firmino and Volland, by the time Nageslamnn took over and their squad quality was mid table. He took over after they fired two coaches in one season and were on the verge of relegation (after having just survived on the last day the season before). From there he first ensured survival and then qualified for the UCL the next season.
Their squad was an advantage in the lower divisions but with what Nagelsmann had, he overachieved every season.
It is time United took a good decision instead of dithering in the styles of Moysie.
It's what this board does best unfortunately
99% of fans here are probably too young or was not even born when we were in this situation after the retirement of Sir Matt. This is the exact repetition of the appointment of former player Wilf McGuniness. This is bound to end in disaster just as it was in the past. The same as with Liverpool too by appointing ex players.
I am really convinced that Ragnick would be THE right man for Manchester United. This guy has great knowledge , experience and is manager + sporting director at the same time. He also has a clear vision, strategy and is known for focussing on young players and develop them. On top of that he puts a lot of emphasis on hard work and teamwork. Players like Pogba wouldnt have played a single minute under him.
Many dont know, but he was actually the one who practiced the agresssive pressing style and especially " Gegenpressing" first in the Bundesliga when we was coaching Hoffenheim.
Many dont know, but he was actually the one who practiced the agresssive pressing style and especially " Gegenpressing" first in the Bundesliga when we was coaching Hoffenheim.
They did overachieve with Nagelsmann no question, but he had financial backing which provided him the tools and he then added to that backing by providing the direction.
This doesn't take away from the potential of Nagelmann but it just emphasises that there was other forces at work which provided the then 28 year old the opportunity to shine due to his potential. Most 28 year olds are still playing the game so it propelled Nagelsmann into the limelight much earlier in comparison to others. But my post wasn't to down play Nagelsmann but rather to provide some balance to the topic.
Brexit kicking in.
Will admit I am definitely too young to remember that but can recall seeing documentaries of how many years it took us to find the right manager again after Sir Matt. I suppose the biggest difference between now and that time was that at least then we didn't have a bunch of clowns on the board running things
Right as they did sack a lot of managers when they didn't get things right soon. Apart from Wilf and Frank the rest were all experienced top British Managers. Yet they were fired. I really do not understand this progress people talk about. I think this team apart from Maguire is quick enough to play the way Rose, Nagelsmann and Haselhuttl wants to play. If Axel is as good as half good as some make him out to be he ie good enough to play as CB with a high line. These coaches may see things Ole do not see in some players and change their positions and get them to play better football. I do not think we need to make wholesale changes to the team. Jose bought Hojberjg for 15 million and see how good he is playing now. That is peanuts these days.
They stopped initially by force (injuries) because they're not trained for it, and then by design.
Ole decided to scrap that system of playing afterwards and opt with a more safer defensive playing style with 4231. It's intentional and purpose to fit our thin stripped squad of players better. So basically he didn't train our player to be able to run a lot for a season.
Point? We can.
The players did it before very well and with good fitness preparation for that, we will have the work ethic the 3 managers would want/
Maybe it's not a coincidence that all the players Poch managed happened to be quality players. Looking at that list of Southampton players, and then we see what happened at Spurs as well... makes you think doesn't it?
It sounds like Poch has that rare ability to make players a lot better, and if that's the case I'll take him ahead of anyone else regardless of their system. @Adnan and other regular Bundesliga watchers, how do Rose and Nagelsmann stack up in that department?
Didn't Busby come back to manage us after that? I could be imagining that
In that context, the Van de Beek signing is actually the weirdest to me, and something that might worry new coaches. Clearly, management appointments have been a mess since SAF left, as the sequence SAF > Moyes > Van Gaal > Mourinho > Ole makes close to zero sense. There might be a little continuity from Mourinho to Ole, but the other coaches have virtually nothing in common, which makes squad development extremely hard. With Ole firmly in place last summer, though, squad development should have been geared towards his ideas - yet Van de Beek does not seem to fit Ole's approach stylistically nor any of the Ole's midfield positions tactically.
I'd love to know what happened there, and I imagine so would a new coach with strong tactical ideas (like everyone discussed here). I would imagine they would not like the idea of coming into a situation where they might get expensive players that can't play any of the roles they have in the team. (As it happens, I think Van de Beek would fit them all very well; but Ole was and is United's coach.)
I read 'beard' there first. Thanks, @Annihilate Now!