Nba 2011-2012

[Nanderson]

They're not going to buy either if the team sucks and nobody's going to games. When you have talent on the team, you can always trade them as well.

They won't suck forever. Tell me this, if the Maloofs wanted to sell, which would be more attractive; the current Kings team? Or the one of four years ago that had no young talent, a bunch of solid vets, and no bright future? It's a simple concept. Fans will go to games when there's young talent.

Rebuilding takes time, which is the reason why I agree with you in arguing against it when it comes to New Orleans. And I completely agree with what you said below. The Bulls, Sonics, and Grizzlies are examples of a few other successful complete rebuilding projects, but by no means is it the only way to go about things.

Unless you have a star already to reload with, it is absolutely the ONLY way to become competitive again. You either develop the talent, or trade it for established stars who can make you competitive. I've yet to see an example that goes contrary to this.

 

[Nanderson]

Even with Evans healthy, they Kings were still one of the worst teams in the league. I do really like his game, how can you not, but that's not going to be enough. They had Kevin Martin providing just as impressive scoring stats, and they were still terrible.

Evans wasn't healthy at all last season, that's the thing. He played through plantar fasciitis, which is very painful. Of course they were one of the worst teams, their best players are kids! Same thing happened with the Thunder and look at them now. Ahhhh! You're a stats guy. Kevin Martin is one dimensional and is not a winner. He plays no defense unlike Evans, and could not pass or rebound, again unlike Evans. There is no comparison. If you're going to look at stats and say Martin is comparable just because he scores more points, well then I don't know what to say to you.

Every player in the NBA can score, probably 99.5% of them hold their HS scoring record. Defense is where there is a lot more variation, defense wins championships, as they say, and the Kings are terrible at defense. I don't keep up with the Kings much, but a quick search puts Evans and Cousins down as attitude problems, which usually means they aren't dedicated, and that usually starts with not defending. Everyone loves to score, few enjoy defending as much.

Yes, their defense needs to improve. Hardly a revelation. They're one of the youngest teams in the league, they're not their yet. Lots of room for improvement, and that's the point. If you can't see the potential for growth in the team then I suspect you didn't predict a bright future for the Clippers or Thunder prior to their breakout years either (the Clippers which is likely to come this year). I'm curiousn as to what Evans attitude problems are? Care to elaborate? Seems a bit of a cop out to put it there without elaborating. And saying that about Cousins is just so lazy. He's a great character, very funny, hard working, extremely smart and high basketball IQ. He just needs to learn to control his emotions - the same junk is thrown out about him by people who have no idea what he's like, it's just lazy. I guarantee that Cousins will be a top 3 center in the league within three years barring injury. Willing to have a bet with anyone on that.

And Evans' and Cousins' attitude problems aside, they don't have any players that hate to lose, that have that winning attitude. John Salmons is great when he's in a contract year, but he always looks extremely bored and passionless. Other like J.J. Hickson, Jason Thompson and Donte Greene have made very little impression on me. I'd rather have Nick Young, Andre Blatche and JaVale McGee. I'm much more excited about Washington making a move up the charts with their youth movement than the Kings.

Is that a joke? Cousins may hate to lose more than any player in the league! How about Marcus Thornton, Jason Thompson, Chuck Hayes? We have lots of fiery competitors. Look, if you don't follow the Kings that's absolutely fair enough, but it's not right to come out with false assertions either. BTW, Hickson put up 17/11 in the second half of last season, if that's not eye catching for a young big in the NBA I don't know what is. Perhaps you only take notice of the bigger teams? Nick Young? The guy is a black hole, he shoots 75% of the time he gets the ball, that's not an exaggeration! Look it up, he's the biggest black hole in the NBA. Shoots proportionately higher than Kobe, Durant, LeBron, you name anyone. He's extremely one dimensional, he can't do anything else. The stuff you're coming out with is ludicrous. Blatche? And you were giving out about the Kings young guys having attitude problems? What are you smoking man, Blatche is lazy and has a pretty bad attitude. Not to mention McGee!! I really don't get you

I may be wrong, but I really don't see the Kings getting much better compared to the rest of the league. Watching them play I don't see a team but a collection of individuals. But please, if you have reason to think some of their players have what it takes, do share.

Time will tell my friend, time will tell. I'm genuinely sorry if I've come across overly harsh, I just can't understand your reasoning sometimes. But each to their own.

 

[jveezy]

They won't suck forever. Tell me this, if the Maloofs wanted to sell, which would be more attractive; the current Kings team? Or the one of four years ago that had no young talent, a bunch of solid vets, and no bright future? It's a simple concept. Fans will go to games when there's young talent.

The one of four years ago did not have solid talent. It was pretty much Kevin Martin and a washed up Brad Miller.

Martin, Okafor, and Scola alone would've made that New Orleans team a more attractive buy than THAT Kings team. And the Maloofs weren't selling when they blew up the roster.

Unless you have a star already to reload with, it is absolutely the ONLY way to become competitive again. You either develop the talent, or trade it for established stars who can make you competitive. I've yet to see an example that goes contrary to this.

I don't think we're on the same wavelength here. I'm just trying to say that a complete rebuild isn't top priority right now for the Hornets. The league needs to offload this team as quickly as possible, so I don't feel like the new deal they got (which I absolutely do think is better long-term) isn't better short term. Buyers don't shy away because there's already talent on the team unless they're in salary cap hell. The contracts they would've acquired in that deal weren't crippling by any means.

 

[Nanderson]

The one of four years ago did not have solid talent. It was pretty much Kevin Martin and a washed up Brad Miller.

Maybe a year further back, with Ron Ron, Bibby, Wells etc.. It was going nowhere. The current team is much more attractive to a buyer than that one.

Martin, Okafor, and Scola alone would've made that New Orleans team a more attractive buy than THAT Kings team. And the Maloofs weren't selling when they blew up the roster.

I don't doubt the bit in bold, but that's not the point. I'm essentially comparing veteran, mediocre teams to younger, talented teams. There is always more room for growth in the latter, and when you couple this with the cap flexibility that accompanys it, then it's clearly more attractive to a buyer. My question was a hypothetical, was not saying that they wanted to sell at the time.

I don't think we're on the same wavelength here. I'm just trying to say that a complete rebuild isn't top priority right now for the Hornets. The league needs to offload this team as quickly as possible, so I don't feel like the new deal they got (which I absolutely do think is better long-term) isn't better short term. Buyers don't shy away because there's already talent on the team unless they're in salary cap hell. The contracts they would've acquired in that deal weren't crippling by any means.

It depends by what you define "better" as. There's no doubt the Lakers deal would have got the team a few more cheap wins. Apart from that it's not "better." The team was going nowhere, and deprived of young players, good draft picks, and the possibility of signing players. I think Stern views this as much more attractive to potential buyers, which is why he held out for a deal like this. I'd have to agree with him.

 

[jveezy]

I don't keep up with the Kings much, but a quick search puts Evans and Cousins down as attitude problems, which usually means they aren't dedicated, and that usually starts with not defending. Everyone loves to score, few enjoy defending as much.

You're going to have to define attitude problems for me, because the only thing close to my interpretation of attitude problems that has happened with these two have been Cousins' fight with Donte Greene (which had everything to do with the fact that they lost that game) and Cousins' clashes with assistant coaches which have more to do with passion than anything else.

As for our defensive woes, a good portion of that has to do with coaching and scouting. Individually the players are getting better at it, but as a team, they're having problems.

And Evans' and Cousins' attitude problems aside, they don't have any players that hate to lose, that have that winning attitude. John Salmons is great when he's in a contract year, but he always looks extremely bored and passionless. Other like J.J. Hickson, Jason Thompson and Donte Greene have made very little impression on me. I'd rather have Nick Young, Andre Blatche and JaVale McGee. I'm much more excited about Washington making a move up the charts with their youth movement than the Kings.

I certainly won't argue with you about Salmons. Nick Young, Andre Blatche, and JaVale McGee have made just as little of an impression on me as Hickson, Thompson, and Greene made on you, but then again I've kept up with the Wizards probably about as much as you've kept up with the Kings.

To be honest, I don't think you can trust national media when it comes to reports about the Kings. And it's not a butthurt media bias type reason for me to say that. It's more of a "why should national media care about the Kings" type reason. Sam Amick for SI is the only one, and that's because he milks all his sources that he had as a Kings beat writer. The rest don't have a reason to care (nor should they until the team starts contending for a playoff spot) or devote any reasonable amount of time towards covering the team. It simply isn't a big enough team for anything beyond a few lazy reports from people who wish they were assigned to cover the Lakers instead.

 

[jveezy]

Maybe a year further back, with Ron Ron, Bibby, Wells etc.. It was going nowhere. The current team is much more attractive to a buyer than that one.

That team wasn't exactly cap flexible though. That's what I'm trying to say.

I don't doubt the bit in bold, but that's not the point. I'm essentially comparing veteran, mediocre teams to younger, talented teams. There is always more room for growth in the latter, and when you couple this with the cap flexibility that accompanys it, then it's clearly more attractive to a buyer. My question was a hypothetical, was not saying that they wanted to sell at the time.

To me there's a huge difference between a veteran, mediocre team with cap flexibility and a veteran, mediocre team with Mike Bibby, Brad Miller, and K9 making shit-tons of money. That's why I don't think you can compare the Kings situation with New Orleans.

Edit: By the way I'm enjoying this three-way argument.

 

[gooDevil]

You're going to have to define attitude problems for me, because the only thing close to my interpretation of attitude problems that has happened with these two have been Cousins' fight with Donte Greene (which had everything to do with the fact that they lost that game) and Cousins' clashes with assistant coaches which have more to do with passion than anything else.

As for our defensive woes, a good portion of that has to do with coaching and scouting. Individually the players are getting better at it, but as a team, they're having problems.



I certainly won't argue with you about Salmons. Nick Young, Andre Blatche, and JaVale McGee have made just as little of an impression on me as Hickson, Thompson, and Greene made on you, but then again I've kept up with the Wizards probably about as much as you've kept up with the Kings.

To be honest, I don't think you can trust national media when it comes to reports about the Kings. And it's not a butthurt media bias type reason for me to say that. It's more of a "why should national media care about the Kings" type reason. Sam Amick for SI is the only one, and that's because he milks all his sources that he had as a Kings beat writer. The rest don't have a reason to care (nor should they until the team starts contending for a playoff spot) or devote any reasonable amount of time towards covering the team. It simply isn't a big enough team for anything beyond a few lazy reports from people who wish they were assigned to cover the Lakers instead.

fair enough, if you as a Kings fan don't know about Evans and Cousins having problems, they can't be that bad. The articles mentioned some problems getting along with the coach, but it was all vague.

I guess another problem I have with the Kings is that they seem to have tons of players that all do the same thing, a ton of SG/SF slashers, big players to be sure, physical and athletic, but no point guard [now that Udrih is gone], no center and no one who can play in the post, which are traditionally the 3 most important positions [Jordan's Bulls and Dallas aside].

Looking at the stats I'm very impressed with Thornton averaging 21.3 points for Sacramento in 27 games last season, though it's a team that plays fast with lots of possessions which makes the offensive stats look a bit better than average.

 

[RDCR07]

Kobe is getting divorced.

Kobe Bryant’s wife files for divorce - Ball Don't Lie - NBA Blog - Yahoo! Sports

 

[jveezy]

fair enough, if you as a Kings fan don't know about Evans and Cousins having problems, they can't be that bad. The articles mentioned some problems getting along with the coach, but it was all vague.

I'm not saying problems didn't exist. Cousins wasn't exactly a saint, but most of those problems were disagreements with assistant coaches about technique or other basketball related matters. Similar to problems he had with Calipari in college but not selfish diva-type problems that could implode a team from the inside.

Tyreke on the other hand has actually been one of the most level-headed and mature rookies I've ever seen. The worst thing about his character is that he holds on to the ball a little too long, but I that has more to do with his in-game reactions and decision making rather than a desire to ball hog.

I'm not saying there's no problems, but every team and every player has problems here and there, and I think the media overblows ours because they don't spend all that much time covering our team.

I guess another problem I have with the Kings is that they seem to have tons of players that all do the same thing, a ton of SG/SF slashers, big players to be sure, physical and athletic, but no point guard [now that Udrih is gone], no center and no one who can play in the post, which are traditionally the 3 most important positions [Jordan's Bulls and Dallas aside].

Positions are a bit muddled on this team. We haven't had any pure traditional point guards for a while (and that includes Udrih who actually spent a lot of time as a midrange sharpshooter when playing with Tyreke). All the point guards are pretty much tweeners, but Udrih and Evans at least had complimentary skills that could play off each other. Unfortunately one happened to be a young, injured player who has problems keeping his head up when he's penetrating, and the other was a mediocre but serviceable passer who could hit a midrange jumper consistently but gets absolutely burned on defense on a regular basis. Jimmer's much the same as Udrih, but seems like a better shooter (but I'm afraid he might become a bit of a chucker if he isn't reined in).

Not having a full-time creator at guard isn't a huge deal in this offense, because it's a variant of the Princeton offense that relies a lot on the big men to create. This is much the same as the glory days of the Kings with Divac and Webber consistently racking up just as many assists as Doug Christie and Mike Bibby did. That team had guys that could hit shots though and slashers that could finish at the rim.

The current team athletically is capable of getting to the right positions and handling the timing of the offense well but is very good at screwing things up at the last second or just missing open shots. Basically they're really good at messing up the easy things. The focus and in-game handling of situations they've practiced isn't great, but that's to be expected when you're dealing with a young team. That's why I feel like this team is much better than people give it credit for, because they're very competitive when they cut out the mental mistakes, and the young players have made enough improvement from draft day to show that they're capable of making the required improvements to their game. We just have to be patient.

Looking at the stats I'm very impressed with Thornton averaging 21.3 points for Sacramento in 27 games last season, though it's a team that plays fast with lots of possessions which makes the offensive stats look a bit better than average.

Thornton's stats are fairly impressive from an efficiency perspective. 45% shooting when he was with the team, which would've been about 8th in the league (tied with Eric Gordon) for shooting guards had he put up those kinds of stats for the entire year (Udrih shot at 50% and Evans at 41% probably due to the number of wild layups he threw up). He doesn't take that many shots either, so that frees up the other players to do other things (or turn the ball over). And defensively when he's on the floor with Evans, the team is solid enough. It's when they have to put Udrih/Jimmer in when they have problems. That's why I'm pretty happy about Thornton being resigned.

Anyways, preseason game against the Warriors tomorrow night. If the defense has made some improvements, they might be able to hold them to 100.

 

[gooDevil]

I'm not saying problems didn't exist. Cousins wasn't exactly a saint, but most of those problems were disagreements with assistant coaches about technique or other basketball related matters. Similar to problems he had with Calipari in college but not selfish diva-type problems that could implode a team from the inside.

Tyreke on the other hand has actually been one of the most level-headed and mature rookies I've ever seen. The worst thing about his character is that he holds on to the ball a little too long, but I that has more to do with his in-game reactions and decision making rather than a desire to ball hog.

I'm not saying there's no problems, but every team and every player has problems here and there, and I think the media overblows ours because they don't spend all that much time covering our team.

Tyreke is special, my only question is will he be a point guard, but either way the only thing that could slow him down would be injury. Plantar fasciitis is nasty stuff, basically your foot becoming rotten from being in a sweaty shoe all day, they need to work out barefoot or something. Anyway, as I'm sure you know he's one of 4 rookies to average 20-5-5, points-rebounds-assists, with Oscar Robertson, Jordan and LeBron. That's some elite company.

Positions are a bit muddled on this team. We haven't had any pure traditional point guards for a while (and that includes Udrih who actually spent a lot of time as a midrange sharpshooter when playing with Tyreke). All the point guards are pretty much tweeners, but Udrih and Evans at least had complimentary skills that could play off each other. Unfortunately one happened to be a young, injured player who has problems keeping his head up when he's penetrating, and the other was a mediocre but serviceable passer who could hit a midrange jumper consistently but gets absolutely burned on defense on a regular basis. Jimmer's much the same as Udrih, but seems like a better shooter (but I'm afraid he might become a bit of a chucker if he isn't reined in).

Not having a full-time creator at guard isn't a huge deal in this offense, because it's a variant of the Princeton offense that relies a lot on the big men to create. This is much the same as the glory days of the Kings with Divac and Webber consistently racking up just as many assists as Doug Christie and Mike Bibby did. That team had guys that could hit shots though and slashers that could finish at the rim.

The current team athletically is capable of getting to the right positions and handling the timing of the offense well but is very good at screwing things up at the last second or just missing open shots. Basically they're really good at messing up the easy things. The focus and in-game handling of situations they've practiced isn't great, but that's to be expected when you're dealing with a young team. That's why I feel like this team is much better than people give it credit for, because they're very competitive when they cut out the mental mistakes, and the young players have made enough improvement from draft day to show that they're capable of making the required improvements to their game. We just have to be patient.

I can't help but think that Sacramento will have to add that veteran quality before they're really able to turn the corner and become a playoff team, the best thing would be to follow the Grizzlies and get someone like Zach Randolph, who can actually play in the post, an increasingly rare quality in basketball players. The Pistons as well didn't get payoff on their young core until they brought in Rasheed Wallace, Dallas needed to buy Jason Kidd even after all their previous maneuvering. But i can see Jason Thompson and Cousins becoming good enough that if they added someone like Gasol or Randolph, someone at least on the periphery of All Star status, I could see them competing in a fairly wide open league in a few years.

Not having many high percentage shooters hurts them, teams can collapse and they aren't punished from range, and they don't get many easy buckets from post play. But Evans stepping things up would change a lot of things and open things up for everyone else, he could be the best player in the league one day. But what they really need to do is share the ball, move it around, and make crisp runs, because basketball is about passing, and they do too much 1 on 1, isolation stuff for my taste.

 

[Nanderson]

Cousins is one of the best young post players in the game. I don't get how you're missing that. He has the potential to be better in the low post than Randolph, Gasol etc.. He needs a big defender next to him, not someone else who will clog up the lane.

 

[jveezy]

Tyreke is special, my only question is will he be a point guard, but either way the only thing that could slow him down would be injury. Plantar fasciitis is nasty stuff, basically your foot becoming rotten from being in a sweaty shoe all day, they need to work out barefoot or something.

IMO the debate about PG vs SG is a bit old and doesn't quite work for this team. There's a specific set of skills that the players on the court need to collectively have, and as long as they can collectively complement each other, I have no problem starting two tweener guards.

If I remember right from the time Peja Stojakovic had it, the only thing you can really do for it is rest. He's healthy now so he should be back to old form (though preferably improved from his rookie year).

I can't help but think that Sacramento will have to add that veteran quality before they're really able to turn the corner and become a playoff team, the best thing would be to follow the Grizzlies and get someone like Zach Randolph, who can actually play in the post, an increasingly rare quality in basketball players. The Pistons as well didn't get payoff on their young core until they brought in Rasheed Wallace, Dallas needed to buy Jason Kidd even after all their previous maneuvering. But i can see Jason Thompson and Cousins becoming good enough that if they added someone like Gasol or Randolph, someone at least on the periphery of All Star status, I could see them competing in a fairly wide open league in a few years.

You're talking about a few playoff-caliber teams that then made the jump to championship contender. We're far from that right now. I agree that we need more talent and leadership in general, though so that's not to discount anything you said. The only problem is that nobody wants to come to Sacramento. In order to attract anyone with talent, we pretty much have to offer a max deal or acquire them in a trade. Generally talented players don't get traded unless they're expiring contracts, so we'd be getting players for a year who would then bolt for the bigger cities.

The new CBA helps somewhat, since the large market teams won't be able to stockpile as much as before, but at the same time every free agent signing is still a huge risk for us because we'll still have to attract players with money. It's like being the rich, ugly kid that knows he's only going to ever be able to bang hookers for the rest of his life.

Not having many high percentage shooters hurts them, teams can collapse and they aren't punished from range, and they don't get many easy buckets from post play. But Evans stepping things up would change a lot of things and open things up for everyone else, he could be the best player in the league one day. But what they really need to do is share the ball, move it around, and make crisp runs, because basketball is about passing, and they do too much 1 on 1, isolation stuff for my taste.

Wholeheartedly agree. And the problems center around Evans on this, IMO. His best attribute is his ability to get to the rim at will one on one. His biggest flaw is his over-reliance on that skill when he's faced with multiple defenders. He was able to use it to great effect in his rookie season, and I suspect to even greater effect in college (though I didn't watch him then). It's close to pure isolation.

Theoretically that's supposed to open things up for the rest of the team. Penetrate, wait for the defense to collapse on you, kick the ball out for an open shot. The problem is that for a long time, nobody besides Udrih could hit those open shots (Casspi could when he was hot, but when he wasn't, the team had huge problems). This improved once we got Thornton and should hopefully improve more with Jimmer. While Salmons is an upgrade at SF, I'd prefer if he didn't chuck up shots like he did the last time he was here. When the ball gets kicked out to a slasher, it would also be nice if they didn't revert to instincts and slash towards the rim where all the defenders are lurking after they all collapsed on Evans. If the ball goes to a big man in the high post, they need to distribute the ball instead of taking a jumpshot.

Anyways, better shooters should help, but Evans also needs to look for them. After it became clear that the outside shooting wasn't great, he's tried to put the team on his back and do it all himself, especially when the team is trailing and that just gets us into even worse trouble and leads to more missed shots and fast breaks. If the team can just consistently execute penetrate-and-kick, it will open up a lot more easy shots at the rim for Evans.

That said, we threw away quite a few games on final possessions because Paul Westphal likes to just give the ball to Tyreke at the end of the game. Granted I don't mind the ball being in his hands, but everyone and their mothers know Tyreke is going to get that ball and drive to the hoop. We'd have maybe five extra wins if we weren't so inept.

 

[ha_rooney]

Kobe is getting divorced.

Kobe Bryant’s wife files for divorce - Ball Don't Lie - NBA*Blog - Yahoo! Sports

Silly Kobe, always get a prenup.

Nice little debate between jveezy, Nanderson & gooDevil - a bit tough to read but interesting thoughts.

 

[jveezy]

Nice little debate between jveezy, Nanderson & gooDevil - a bit tough to read but interesting thoughts.

We're arguing about the Kings. Do you see why I make the point that the national media wants no part of this team? Would any sportswriter want to subject their readers to this?

 

[gooDevil]

Jeff Green is out for the season for the Celtics, he needs heart surgery, but is supposed to fully recover. I hope for Boston's sake that this means he's failed his physical for the 9 million dollar 1 year contract they were offering. He was a terrible pick up anyway.

 

[RDCR07]

I still can't wrap my head around the Perkins-Green trade last season.

 

[gooDevil]

The Celtics weren't going to sign Perkins, so they figured they might as well...what, trade for a guy who makes them worse they could have signed this off-season anyway?

You're right, it makes no sense.

And they said they couldn't afford him...let's see, Perkins signs 4 year deal for 34 mil with Thunder, that's 8.5 mil a season...Green signed a 9 million dollar contract this offseason...

Apparently the Celtics were over the cap and could only offer Perkins 21 million, so says some article, and I recall that was the gist. But if they can give out a 9 million dollar deal today I don't see why they couldn't have given it to Perkins instead.

 

[Danny1982]

I still can't wrap my head around the Perkins-Green trade last season.

Nobody can. Don't really know what they were thinking.. Awful trade.

 

[MrMarcello]

Season predictions?

Mavs repeat?
Heat reign?
Clippers overtake Lakers?
Bulls rise?
Knicks play defense? ok, getting carried away a bit

 

[RDCR07]

Clippers overtake the Lakers unless the later sign someone big.

 

[ha_rooney]

Heat win over Mavs in finals.
Lakers fail unless we sign Howard.
Durant wins MVP.
Garnett makes Rondo cry on the court.

 

[MrMarcello]

I get the feeling the Clippers will the most over-hyped, overrated team this season. But they'll have plenty of highlight reels on ESPN!

 

[gooDevil]

You're talking about a few playoff-caliber teams that then made the jump to championship contender. We're far from that right now. I agree that we need more talent and leadership in general, though so that's not to discount anything you said. The only problem is that nobody wants to come to Sacramento. In order to attract anyone with talent, we pretty much have to offer a max deal or acquire them in a trade. Generally talented players don't get traded unless they're expiring contracts, so we'd be getting players for a year who would then bolt for the bigger cities.

I guess I feel like any teams needs some sort of veteran presence, to add a level of professionalism, to give younger players an idea of what it takes to separate yourself from so many other incredibly talented athletes. So even if Sacramento, if we follow the Grizzlies model, aren't ready to add their Zach Randolph [a player anyone could have gotten at the time btw] and become a title challenger, adding him early helps the young team get better faster, and helps them learn more about playing together. I suppose if you were more interested in saving the money you might wait, but I don't think it's good to just throw a pile of young players together, they don't tend to appreciate team ball. Let's face it, most of these guys are getting one year of college ball, and in HS and before they probably ran the entire game through them
because they were so much better than anyone around them. Team ball is still very new to a lot of these guys.

I don't mean to imply it's easy to put together the right group of veterans either, but I can't help but think of teams like the Nets that have had tons of draft picks and young players over the years, and how that's not worked for them. Out of the 30 NBA teams, each and every one picks up rookies each year, and there are lots of players in the NBA that went in the 2nd could have been picked up by anyone, and were passed over for a player that's not in the league anymore. You might have 4-5 teams that are able to put together a young group of players that is able to separate itself as a championship contender. I would say now we have the Thunder, the Spurs, the Hawks [who had so many lottery picks it would be embarrassing otherwise], Chicago are the ones right now. Still, Chicago bought Boozer, the Hawks Joe Johnson, the Thunder Kendrick Perkins and the Spurs of course are run by super intelligent apes from space and always draft great players and seemingly never buy. But they're the great exception, and they got lucky getting the #1 pick they used on Duncan when they were one of the best teams in the league already.

Wholeheartedly agree. And the problems center around Evans on this, IMO. His best attribute is his ability to get to the rim at will one on one. His biggest flaw is his over-reliance on that skill when he's faced with multiple defenders. He was able to use it to great effect in his rookie season, and I suspect to even greater effect in college (though I didn't watch him then). It's close to pure isolation.

Theoretically that's supposed to open things up for the rest of the team. Penetrate, wait for the defense to collapse on you, kick the ball out for an open shot. The problem is that for a long time, nobody besides Udrih could hit those open shots (Casspi could when he was hot, but when he wasn't, the team had huge problems). This improved once we got Thornton and should hopefully improve more with Jimmer. While Salmons is an upgrade at SF, I'd prefer if he didn't chuck up shots like he did the last time he was here. When the ball gets kicked out to a slasher, it would also be nice if they didn't revert to instincts and slash towards the rim where all the defenders are lurking after they all collapsed on Evans. If the ball goes to a big man in the high post, they need to distribute the ball instead of taking a jumpshot.

It's a double edged sword with Evans, because how can you argue with so many assists with his points? He creating for others as well, but as you said it clogs up any chance of running a proper offense, and as good as he is, if he wants to win he'll have to change somewhat, I think.

But I think he'll figure it out. I have to admit I shelved him in my mind after his injury, but recalling his talent levels, it's hard not to see him taking a team deep in the finals at some point. I guess my problem is, if the Kings don't commit financially when he thinks he's ready, off he goes. We've seen it so many times with talented young stars, they have little patience, and the player like Durant that takes less to keep a team together, virtually unheard of.

 

[gooDevil]

Nanderson, I hope I haven't offended you, you seem quite upset. I'm not saying that every team doesn't need to bring up their own talent. I'm just arguing that, and I'm not even sure if this was the original point and I'm not going back and reading all these pages to find out, that teams in the NBA don't just win by keeping all their draft picks and them eventually becoming good enough to make a top team.

I'm sure I agree with many of your points about young players, I was just taking the other side, especially as a Lakers fan, and someone who likes to watch the Knicks sideshow basketball disaster, who knows you can build a winning team primarily through trades and free agents.

I think of teams like the Nets that have had endless high draft picks in my lifetime and have almost never done anything with it, it wasn't till they somehow ended up with Jason Kidd in a trade that they got anywhere, and that's was such a 1 man team. I don't want to see a team like the Kings just sit back and be content to train players that will just leave if they end up any good.

Right, it was about the Hornets, and whether they would be 'better off' with Gordon, Aminu and Draft Pick X, or Scola, Martin and Odom. Of course the Hornets already have other young players to build around, they've been drafting them for years, so it's not like they would be precluded from developing complementary young talent to do with those 3 veterans.

I don't know, the Hornets won't be anywhere near a championship for a long time. But, considering they aren't LA, Miami, Chicago or NY, and probably won't be buying a title through high profile purchases, I'll happily admit that the other teams that have won titles in the last 20 years have done so with a core of their own draft choices, but except for the Spurs with key veteran free agents and trades as well.

Jordan, he was with the Bulls for what, 8 years before he won a title? Can you seriously ask any team to follow an 8 year plan? You have to get lucky and get that star pick, for every team that does there are 10 trying that fail, and that seems just as hard as managing to get a top player like Zach Randolph through trade and free agency. At least with a veteran you're getting the player in their peak, instead of developing them for someone else to benefit from, with no sort of compensation like in football.

Players are trading teams so much more frequently than they used to, which also makes it seem to me that you'd be hard pressed to fight that trend and keep your players together. And the NBA is a league that tends to be won by players in their 30's much more than most other sports, knowledge of how to play the game seems more valuable than being younger and faster, so I feel there's an over-reliance on youth. I guess I feel that just because you're not going to win the title doesn't mean you should pick all young players over veterans, effectively making yourself worse in the short run, in the hopes you'll be better in the long run. It seems more risky to me, you might not get back to the level you were at for a long time.

Please excuse me if this is all rambling somewhat, I'm not editing, this isn't even a basketball forum!

 

[Rooney1987]

ESPN com: Sources say Baron Davis has committed to sign with Knicks

If this happens excited about this! With a healthy and motivated Davis, I think this team can contend for a championship.

Chandler
Stoudemire
Melo
Shumpert
Davis

 

[ha_rooney]

Genuine question: is Davis a bit overweight to be playing PG?

 

[gooDevil]

Hmm, they just signed Bibby, I wonder if Davis isn't set to play shooting guard.

Oh, and the Lakers signed Troy Murphy, so...yeah. Unless we get Howard or some other trade I don't see us winning after giving Odom away.

 

[sidsutton]

ESPN com: Sources say Baron Davis has committed to sign with Knicks

If this happens excited about this! With a healthy and motivated Davis, I think this team can contend for a championship.

Chandler
Stoudemire
Melo
Shumpert
Davis

 

[gooDevil]

Genuine question: is Davis a bit overweight to be playing PG?

Yeah, he's a little out of shape and limited by injury. He may well come off the bench for them.

 

[MrMarcello]

Surprised Baron chose the Knicks over the Lakers. Will be interesting to see how the Knicks play this season.

 

[gooDevil]

Miami crushed Orlando in pre-season yesterday, Heat rookie Norris Cole had 8 assists and 8 points in 20 minutes off the bench, another rookie Terrel Harris had 14 points on 4-5 shooting from deep. Just unfair if they should get a good rookie or two on top of their riches.

Howard was obviouslt aware I picked him in the red cafe fantasy league, because he came out with a 2-9 performance, with 4 fouls and was blocked twice, 5 points in 29 minutes. Screams 'I don't want to be here' to me. I just hope LA don't have to wait till mid season to get the trade done.

Sharp shooter Ryan Anderson, that someone needs to give a starting job to, had 22 for the Magic on 7-15 and 4-9 from 3, matched by JJ Redick's 22 on 6-11 and 3-5 from 3, both off the bench.

 

[gooDevil]

Surprised Baron chose the Knicks over the Lakers. Will be interesting to see how the Knicks play this season.

I hope that's because the Lakers were too smart to take him on.

 

[gooDevil]

Oh, the Lakers, smashed by the Clips, this could be a long season. My Bucks look like they're going to finish last this year. I guess I'll have to go to watching the Pacers again.

 

[ha_rooney]

Wow that was a big defeat! Kobe may have injured his wrist which would kill our season if he's out for any games. As expected Artest did feck all from the bench - 3 pts in 24 mins and all of them FTs. If he's not starting and offering good D there really is no point of keeping him as he hasn't been able to shoot since Game 7 of 2010 finals.

 

[RDCR07]

Brook Lopez out for two months. That sucks for fantasy owners.

 

[gbgary]

looks like the Mavs just might suck this year. :/

maaaybee not. more excited for next year though with all the cap space and flexabillity.

 

[RDCR07]

looks like the Mavs just might suck this year. :/

A bit premature maybe? You guys have added valuable options in Odom and Carter.

 

[gooDevil]

The Mavs should be excellent still, but the Heat will have moved a bit closer, perhaps.

Haywood
Nowitzki
Marion
Stevenson
Kidd

Bench:
Beaubois
Odom
Terry

The Mavs have been waiting to promote Beaubois, they're very high on him, and Odom and Terry will make theirs probably the best bench in the league. The main difference will be the lost of Caron Butler who wasn't even there for the playoff run and if Haywood can come close to replacing Chandler.

The Heat meanwhile *should* get better, another year for their young stars, Haslem is back, but they keep changing the line-up and personnel so much that they may not be any better as a team.

 

[Nanderson]

Hasn't Stevenson signed for the Nets?




BTW gooDevil, I'm not angry, there's no hard feelings

 

[gooDevil]

Hasn't Stevenson signed for the Nets?




BTW gooDevil, I'm not angry, there's no hard feelings

Crap, is that right? He was their best defender, I couldn't say who would take that starting 2 spot then, they started 2nd year man Dominique Jones in their only preseason game, and he played 26 minutes, so maybe that's the plan. No idea about him.

After ruining my earlier argument you did get me thinking about how important your own draft choices are, and while players are moving around at increasingly rapid rates, the best players in the league are 1 or 2 team players. Especially for teams that aren't LA, NY, Chicago or Miami.

The volume of wasteful contract has given free agency a bad name among fans, though I still think an intelligent use of available veteran talent could make a mediocre team into a good one faster than waiting for rookies to develop.

But for every Zach Randolph there's a Kwame Brown, a John Salmons, a Gilbert Arenas, a Vince Carter...