This doesn't sound like a particularly convincing argument as to why Giggs should manage United. At least managing a smaller club would prove that he has an aptitude for managing a football club, which would give him a bit of credibility and legitimacy towards being considered for the United job, as to the coronation is undergoing right now.
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The people who want Giggs to be the next manager don't seem to be able to put forward any argument other than 'It'd be romantic so we should do it'. Nah, not for me.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that Giggs is the right choice. I just don't think that managing a smaller club will necessarily be beneficial. Moyes was the prime example of this being a bad indicator. For United you either have it or you don't. SAF had it, Moyes didn't, LVG kind of has it.
If we're going to give him a go, we'd be better off doing what Barcelona did with Pep, trust that he knows the club and how it runs and can handle the expectations.
If you ever start your own business where you call all the shots and takes all the risk or fame you'll understand that there are things that can never be learnt or imparted. You have to go through it. Winning cups maybe out of the question, but actually dealing with players ( employee can be a cnut sometimes) , the board, the expectations, the feeling of being supreme where you take all the decisions, how to handle players ego, and many other things you wont learn without actually being in charge.
Keane failure wasnt because of sunderland standard is too low. But he fails to adapt and alter his method accordingly, you cant work at google and suddenly manages dixon and employ google system out of the book, alterations have tk be made along the way
I don't think that many real life jobs are comparable to managing MUFC but to reflect what you said; I manage a team of 20 people and was promoted internally after being with the company 9 years. I know the job, I know the people and understand how it all works. It was a learning curve for sure but I don't think I would have benefitted from managing a lesser company's team; I had a good existing knowledge of how this should work from being in the atmosphere every day for 9 years. I know my company's goals and they are unique compared to our competitors.
true story.
I like the fact that some people pooh pooh the validity of the experience you get from managing a smaller club, but are perfectly willing to accept that a few years as an assistant manager is worthwhile. Neither are a perfect simulation for the experience of managing a big club, but at least as a manager of a smaller club you are actually ultimately responsible for something.
I agree someone with experience managing a small club wouldnt be ideal. So I would be looking for someone who has experience of managing a big club. Which just puts it that little bit further out of reach of someone who hasnt actually managed anything at all.
I agree someone with experience managing a small club wouldnt be ideal. So I would be looking for someone who has experience of managing a big club. Which just puts it that little bit further out of reach of someone who hasnt actually managed anything at all.
Were you a colleague of @Walrus in his Vodafone shop?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Giggs' stint as an assistant manager would set him up to manage at Bayern or Real. I just think the inside line he has had on United from a player and assistant manager point of view could be an easier transition than someone coming from the outside. It could turn out for us as well as Barca putting their faith in Pep. Or it could blow up in our faces. My point is managing a smaller team will tell us nada!
I would much prefer Pep as our next manager by the way. And no I don't work for Vodafone.
This is the main problem I think we'll find. The key attributes to become a United manager should include thing like coaching ability, man management and motivation, ability to identify and attract players rather than "is available". Just like in most walks of life the people who are job hunting are often not the people you want.
Whilst I firmly believe Giggs shouldn't be given the job after Van Gaal, I agree completely with what you say here. I don't understand why people think him managing a Sunderland or whoever is somehow going to show him as good enough for us. Everything, right from the quality of the players, to what they are capable of, to the expectations, to the sheer magnitude of the clubs are as different as they could be.
Considering that 99% of managers start at smaller clubs, it will teach him (Giggs) as much as them. Considering that many managers that started at smaller clubs would be good enough for us (Klopp, Ancelotti, Simeone etc), then it maybe would make him ready too. Unless he fails, in which case it will tell us that he isn't good enough for us.
Ouch, thats arguably a tougher scenario to deal with than replacing SAFIt will be interesting and a massive conundrum regardless.
Say all top managers are taken (Klopp, Pep, Simeone etc.) and Mourinho is clearly & by far, the best option available at a certain point in time (say the Giggs experiment fails)....I wouldn't want to be on the Board at that time.
From a personal point of view - I'd never want him at United, but as a Director of United, who's got the interest of the shareholders (and sponsors!) as first priority....yikes!
and same. I really dont like him anymore. Seems a total dick. He does seem to be intentionally ruining his Chelsea time. Or lets say not doing himself any favours. Wonder how long he will last there. Replacing Van Gaal with Jose?.... eurgh
Remember when Ole was thought of as a potential United manager?
Don't wish to be disrespectful to a superb player and a loyal club servant but I really can't think why United would contemplate giving Giggs the job at this stage of his career.
I understand that Ferguson and others will mentor him if he wants it but seems to defy all logic to take the chance.
I understand that Ferguson and others will mentor him if he wants it but seems to defy all logic to take the chance.
You can be a first time manager, everyone gotta start somewhere. But starting at dixon isn't the same with starting being ceo of google on your first ceo job.
Everyone would be happy and will give giggs the benefits of doubt if he manages lower or midtable team. Just not matchester United for hisnfirst job
Put it this way, we'd be having a field day if giggs managing city/chelsea/liverpool/arsenal
We be laughing our ass off if giggs got real Madrid / barcelona / bayern job.
The very same giggs, but when he manages united he suddenly becomes the next saf.
Saf wasnt a nobody when we hired him, he's a mercurial young manager just like mourinho.
We be laughing our ass off if giggs got real Madrid / barcelona / bayern job.
The very same giggs, but when he manages united he suddenly becomes the next saf.
Saf wasnt a nobody when we hired him, he's a mercurial young manager just like mourinho.
What managing a smaller team will do is give him experience in implementing and changing tactics, dealing with difficult situations, developing a play style, controlling players without just spouting "this is manchester united", earning respect as a manager so players know they can trust his methods, working the transfer market etc. etc.
All these are things I'd much rather he learn elsewhere than while trying to coach manchester united, during the most competitive era the league has seen.
All these are things I'd much rather he learn elsewhere than while trying to coach manchester united, during the most competitive era the league has seen.
Like when Barcelona gave Guardiola the job?
I must say I've been reading the Giggs/Guardiola thread and cant help but laugh at the whole irony of the situation. Half the cafe losing their shit over Giggs being given the job because they want Guardiola to get it (a man who started his career as a manager in a way which would be identical to Giggs starting his career as a manager at United, with the difference being Giggs is older and has been at United longer than Pep was when he got the Barca job)
It really is a mind feck for me, people acting as if Giggs would get the job and relegate us to the Championship. If anyone deserves a chance at managing United it's Giggs and I would sing and dance if he got the job over Guardiola. All this talk about risk this and risk that, is it not a risk to bring in a manager who has had arguably the two easiest jobs in world football up until this point? And I don't mean to downplay Pep's achievements, but I'd love someone to sit down with a serious face and tell me Guardiola would make world beaters out of our current squad.
Pep's had two jobs where at both times he's had 5/6 of the best players in the world at one time. I don't think theres a single current United player that would fall into the top 50 current players in the world.
But yeah, keep losing your shit people.
I don't get this view at all that Giggs managing a smaller team would not be valuable experience for managing united. Yes, expectations are different, but what about learning how to lead people, learning and perfecting tactics, learning how to build a squad, learning how to motivate in good times and bad, learning how to handle being the figure head, learning that that the buck stops with you... I could go on for ever... Don't managers learn these things at smaller teams? And are those lessons not transferable to United?
I wonder whether, because Moyes failed, a theory has been formed that managers at smaller clubs will not be able to perform as well at United? Given the number of current top level managers that started small, isn't the more likely explanation that Moyes failed simply because of him as an individual and his individual abilities, or lack thereof, rather than that it is a phenomenon that is true of most managers?
I wonder whether, because Moyes failed, a theory has been formed that managers at smaller clubs will not be able to perform as well at United? Given the number of current top level managers that started small, isn't the more likely explanation that Moyes failed simply because of him as an individual and his individual abilities, or lack thereof, rather than that it is a phenomenon that is true of most managers?
You could always go for Danny Blind.
It's OMGSTOPTHREATINGME4EVA !Pep's first managerial job was not the barca senior team though was it? He had/has great players available yes, but he still has to utilize them properly. Moyes took a championship winning team and finished 7th just a few years ago, Tito Martino at barca. It's not as easy a job as people make it out to be, it's not easy at all.
About Giggs. Nobody expects him to get us relegated, but there's a real possibility that we would miss out on champions league again. Especially with England tantalizingly close to losing the 4th place, we could be looking at a few years in isolation while he supposedly gets his act together. That is not something I think we can afford in this climate, we could find ourselves on the outskirts more often than not.
Nah I doubt it'll happen. So thankfully he'll probably go back to inter before trying his hand with the Por NT.
Says it all really. Pep inherited a fantastic side with possibly the greatest player ever and the core of the Spanish national team. Giggs wouldn't have any of that, which makes him a much riskier proposition than Pep at Barca.
He was B team manager for barely any time, it's certainly not comparable to managing the first team.
As I mentioned as well, I wasn't trying to take away from his accomplishments, but the fact people are losing the plot over the whole situation is what I find bizarre.
I disagree with all of your second bit, it's all rather speculative, and England won't lose 4th spot. Juventus won't be anywhere near this year after all the players they lost, Roma lost to Bate....
The point is Pep here at United not Pep at Barcelona. IMO Pep's a risk coming here, for the first time in his career he'd not be working with half a dozen world class players.
Fair enough, you may have a point. But that of course would make Giggs an even greater risk, since Pep, irrespective of what he inherited, still has the experience of having managed before at a high level.
Pep didn't have to compete with 4 or 5 teams as well, it was just madrid at the time. We may not lose the 4th cl spot, but we'd still have to fight to qualify.
There are simply better options available to us.....so why take unnecessary risk, what's the benefit? We have no world beaters in our team that can bail us out in his settling in period, none at all.
There are simply better options available to us.....so why take unnecessary risk, what's the benefit? We have no world beaters in our team that can bail us out in his settling in period, none at all.
Pep when he was named Barcelona manager and Giggs potentially being the United manager aren't fully alike. Giggs still hasn't managed anywhere for a full season.
Pep managed the Barcelona B team after they were relegated to the 3rd division and he got them promoted to the 2nd division while showing the board his vision then of tiki taka.
This is not me suggesting Pep wasn't a risk, because he was. When Barelona got off to a poor start in 2008-2009(didn't win their first 2 league games) fans began to doubt his appointment.
The risk of appointing Giggs is greater than Barcelona's appointment of Pep then. We can't afford another season where we do not qualify for the CL. We need sustained success now.
Pep managed the Barcelona B team after they were relegated to the 3rd division and he got them promoted to the 2nd division while showing the board his vision then of tiki taka.
This is not me suggesting Pep wasn't a risk, because he was. When Barelona got off to a poor start in 2008-2009(didn't win their first 2 league games) fans began to doubt his appointment.
The risk of appointing Giggs is greater than Barcelona's appointment of Pep then. We can't afford another season where we do not qualify for the CL. We need sustained success now.
Another important thing in Pep's appointment is the fact that he won the job in after a recruitment process which involved the Barcelona directors doing a thorough analysis of several candidates including Mourinho, Valverde, Pellegrini and others.
For van Gaal to say that Giggs will be the next United manager implies that the decision has already been made and the availablility of other worthy candidates will not change that.
So either van Gaal and Ferguson are talking out of turn or United are taking the risk of appointing a man with little to no experience of the position.
Or am I missing something?
For van Gaal to say that Giggs will be the next United manager implies that the decision has already been made and the availablility of other worthy candidates will not change that.
So either van Gaal and Ferguson are talking out of turn or United are taking the risk of appointing a man with little to no experience of the position.
Or am I missing something?
That's exactly the point. It's not comparable and appointing Giggs now without managing any team before is just a huge risk we cannot take currently. Success is never a guarantee with any manager but we should diminish the risk. We already had a huge set back and cant afford another one.
I take your point, though I was assuming the other attributes were a given! Otherwise,y'know, my Dad's available. He briefly looked after the United B Team in the 70s and he tells me they were unbeaten (3 or 4 games!). He'd be cheap as well.
Pep had actually won something with Barca B team before he was appointed as first team manager , although it wasn't fully serious but still he won shit and he wasn't even their first choice, Laudrup was.
He's nothing like Giggs
He's nothing like Giggs
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Yup, one of the main reasons why Mourinho is bitter towards us and Pep.
Exactly. Giggs and Guardiola don't have much in common aside from both potentially going on to manage the clubs they were synonymous with during their respective playing careers. I believe you're correct regarding Laudrup as well.
I agree with you there; I also believe that Giggs needs to sharpen his fangs somewhere else before he is deemed ready to get thrown into the lion's den at Old Trafford. Furthermore, there are still too many players (Rooney, De Gea, Smalling, Jones, Carrick) around who are familiar with Ryan Giggs being the ex-teammate. That situation often results in a recipe for disaster anywhere.
While Guardiola was an exception at Barcelona and that I would go all out for him, managers from smaller clubs need only one characteristic to be called into a big job: ambition. Moyes, like just too many of his pals, never had the ambition (nor the balls) to do whatever it takes to push his clubs higher. That's the main difference between those who make the cut into top clubs and survive by winning, and those who don't.
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Great players don't make great managers automatically. He's got absolutely nothing to show that he's capable of being a winner as a manager. I said it before about Moyes and I'll say it again about Giggs, nobody should get the United job off the back of winning f*** all as a manager.
So, just to summarise what you are saying:
Moyes was moderately successful with a medium size club (Everton), but failed with the big club.
So some think it would be a fantastic idea to appoint a man who has absolutely no experience of management and put him in charge of the big club?
Are people serious?
That's like me running a courier company, so I hired a driver who could drive a small car, but when I gave him a big car he couldn't drive it.
So now, I decide that I will hire a driver who can't even drive a small car and hope he can drive a big car.
This thread is quite entertaining...
So, just to summarise what you are saying:
Moyes was moderately successful with a medium size club (Everton), but failed with the big club.
So some think it would be a fantastic idea to appoint a man who has absolutely no experience of management and put him in charge of the big club?
Are people serious?
That's like me running a courier company, so I hired a driver who could drive a small car, but when I gave him a big car he couldn't drive it.
So now, I decide that I will hire a driver who can't even drive a small car and hope he can drive a big car.
This thread is quite entertaining...
Indeed, funny shit. I'm astonished that people didn't take a look at the resumes of the best managers to count how many of them began with smaller clubs.
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