I think they create plenty against the also rans.
Worth noting that in two seasons Lacazette has scored 2 goals vs Top 6 teams, one in a 3-1 defeat to United, and the other a 1-1 draw against Liverpool (both at the Emerates).
Nicolas Pépé
- Thread starter LazyRed-Ninja
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Worth noting that in two seasons Lacazette has scored 2 goals vs Top 6 teams, one in a 3-1 defeat to United, and the other a 1-1 draw against Liverpool (both at the Emerates).
Where do you get your stats? Because they're very wrong. Just off the top of my head I remember Lacazette scoring against Chelsea in the 2-0 win last season and the 4-2 win over Spurs. So basically you're chatting shite
His control at high speed during a counter when he beat the defender for a one on one with the keeper was impressive.
Quite right, my mistake, also scored in the 4-2 home win against Spurs last season.
So 4 goals in 2 seasons. Not as bad. None away from home.
A quick check shows he scored away at City in 17/18. Wrong again.
The shot was horrific though. Amazing what we ignore from opposition players compared to our own.
Ah yes, a late consolation in a 3-1 defeat. I've made my point regarding Lacazette. Can't make himself a regular, can't get a game for France, cost a fortune. Decent player, but far from a resounding success.
This is meandering well off-topic. Let's just leave it like this; if Pepe performs like the last three attackers Arsenal got from France (Gervinho, Giroud and Lacazette) he'll be incredibly overpriced. So far, he's demonstrated nothing to suggest he's of a higher ilk. Horrific final pass to Aubamayang when in tons of space against Burnley, and a horrific finish when one on one against Liverpool. I suspect he'll do well enough not to be considered a flop, but not well enough to justify the price.
Even against the fodder i don't feel they create a great deal, they were outperforming XG a lot last season and it truly came home to roost in the final run in.
You made a shite point and now you want to change the topic because you've been proven wrong.
You said Laca scored twice in 2 seasons against the top 6 to try make some point that he's a flop and Pepe will go the same way as him. When actually Laca has 5 goals and 5 assists in 900 minutes against the top 6. Considering how shite our defence and midfield is now and how bad we've been against the top 6 that's a pretty good record.
I’m sorry mate but your analysis of Lacazattes record was comically bad, digging yourself a massive hole there. Made me chuckle though !
My point about the top 6 was shite, admittedly.
But my overall opinion hasn't changed at all. A bloke who cost a fortune can't make himself a regular, hasn't surpassed 14 league goals, and can't get a game for a country. He's not lived up to the fee. I've said he's a good player, but nothing more. The point I'm making is he hasn't lived up to the £55m pre-Neymar money, which for the millionth time, would be £80-90 in current market money.
Do you disagree?
Against the top 6 yes, it all went a bit tits up. Due to my own inability to follow a straight line down on Transfermarket analysing his stats
No shame in admitting you've got something wrong, although it doesn't alter my overall opinion of him. He's a lower second tier striker. Hasn't lived up to astronomical fee.
How was his fee astronomical?Against the top 6 yes, it all went a bit tits up. Due to my own inability to follow a straight line down on Transfermarket analysing his stats
No shame in admitting you've got something wrong, although it doesn't alter my overall opinion of him. He's a lower second tier striker. Hasn't lived up to astronomical fee.
Because it was £55m pre Neymar. This equates to around £80-90m post Neymar, when all transfer fees pretty much doubled. That's turned out to be majorly overpriced. When you spend that type of money on a striker, you expect him to be a regular, you expect him to get 20 odd league goals a season, and you expect him to be an international.
He's none of those things.
All transfer fees didn't double. Looks like you wanna stick to your point at all cost.
Lacazette is rubbish he only scored own-goals since arriving in England. Don't check i'm telling the truth.
I think he has qualities that in another team would mean he'd look a lot better. He was linked with Atletico before we signed him and I think if he had moved there he'd definitely be rated higher.
A lot of people don't realise just how dysfunctional the Arsenal team is. We have two good strikers but can't fit them in the same team together. Before Pepe we didn't have a single winger at the club. Both our creative 10s (Ozil, Mkhi) are well past their best. If you watch us play you'd see we don't really create all that many clear cut chances through good play so with that context I think Lacazette has done well.
I can't think of all that many strikers who I'm certain would have done better than he has in this team over the last couple of years.
First it was 53m€ and no it doesn't equate to 80m£ post Neymar. Neymar transfer has nothing to do with any other transfer outside of Dembélé and Coutinho. These weird links need to stop, a player fee is mainly in a vaccum.
And it's ridiculous to label it as astronomical when Diego Costa, Morata and Lukaku went for more the same summer, Higuain went for 40 more millions the previous window.
All the French and Arsenal lot are out in force.
Like I said for those who can't/ refuse to read. GOOD player but CAN'T MAKE HIMSELF A REGULAR and CAN'T GET A GAME FOR HIS COUNTRY (and is even behind Giroud). For this reason I don't believe he lived up to his fee.
The case in point is that pre Neymar a Maguire-esque player would have cost around £50m. Post Neymar? £80-90m. Pretty simple.
Like I said for those who can't/ refuse to read. GOOD player but CAN'T MAKE HIMSELF A REGULAR and CAN'T GET A GAME FOR HIS COUNTRY (and is even behind Giroud). For this reason I don't believe he lived up to his fee.
Of course they did. World record went from £90m to £200m. Players like Dembele suddenly cost £120m and Coutinho £130m. They would have cost nowhere near this pre Neymar. Note how I said "pretty much" and said that "£55m became £80-90m." Not quite double is it? But well on it's way. Hence me saying "pretty much."
The case in point is that pre Neymar a Maguire-esque player would have cost around £50m. Post Neymar? £80-90m. Pretty simple.
No but seriously, have you seen the state of that list. Certified Ligue 1 flops expected to perform in the PL. Funnily enough, someone like Jordan Ayew was a bottom half player in France.
It was £46.5m rising to £52.6m.
Higuain had just scored more goals than games in his final season for Napoli in Serie A. In his time with Napoli scored 71 in 105 games in a better league than France and in a league notoriously difficult to score goals. In his peak, he was a MUCH better player than Lacazette, and a regular for his country.
Diego Costa was and is a much better player than Lacazette and only cost Atletico £5m more than Lacazette cost (having scored 52 in 80 Premier League games and winning the title).
Lukaku left United with a record of a goal every 178 minutes (as you like your stats like this, or as I prefer 28 league goals in 66 appearances) but considered a flop.
Morata was obviously a waste of money and has been a massive flop.
Tell me then, considering the inflation of transfer fees post Neymar, how much would Lacazette have cost in today's market? Would his record justify that fee? If you're seriously telling me that he'd have cost Arsenal the same money now than then, you're having a laugh. His record is not that of a man who cost such money, and his impact has not been that which was expected.
Ndombele this summer just cost £55m - £60m. Are you saying he would have cost the same the summer than Lacazette signed for Arsenal, and pre Neymar? Of course not. He's have been around £20m - £25m cheaper.
No, I'm saying that it has nothing to do with Neymar. Transfer fees depends on who is selling, who is buying and the contractual situation of the player, it has very little to do with a player that wasn't even an alternative for Arsenal. You just have to look at Aubameyang who joined Arsenal after the Neymar transfer and somehow didn't go for 80m-85m.
And the inflation is due to the new TV deals in Spain, France and England. Teams have a lesser need for transfer money and will logically ask for more money if someone wants a player that they value highly.
As for Lukaku, he was a top 10 all time transfer fee and in Premier League he contributed to less goals+assists than Lacazette did, so even if you just compare both players there is only one winner. And that's with Lacazette still having question marks over his head.
Of course it had a lot to do with Neymar. I can't believe you think otherwise. Clubs always use other players valuations to negotiate prices. Suddenly the world's top value soared from £90m to £200m. This massively increased what clubs started asking for their players, as suddenly the mentality was "well if he's worth £200m, he's not worth five times him" etc..
I really cant believe that you don't recognise this.
And you say that Lacazette has question marks over him. We agree then. What a waste of time.
I was agreeing with you. It was a bit funny
Well I won't recognize something that is wrong, Neymar bought his contract, the 200m aren't a market fee and have nothing to do with anyone else since it was a contractal agreement between Neymar and Barcelona. Similarly Bale isn't worth a billion on the market. They impacted Barcelona's dealings because clubs knew that they needed to replace him and had 200m in cash but that's about it.
Look, I won't waste more time on this, it's not worth it. If you want to believe that clubs value players based on multipliers without any sort of individual context then go ahead.
I think you missed the first word in my sentence "All".
Besides transfer fees are much more complicated than all of them becoming X2 after Neymar. You are making it sound like clubs are amateurs or something when setting these fees.
The point is there is no fecking way to be sure of how much a player would have exactly cost based on Neymar. That's madness.
If you make an argument based on false information, of course Arsenal fans were gonna response. What did you want them to do ?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2789226-one-year-on-how-neymars-transfer-has-changed-everything
You can find a million articles like this online with many quotes from agents and ther people in the game who are involved in transfers.
Neymar changed everything.
I have never said that I can be sure about what he would cost, hence me giving ballpark figures. But he would 100% be going for more money. He hasn't lived up to the initial fee considering the market he was signed in. He cost very similar to Diego Costa AFTER Costa had proven himself in England and Spain. He hasn't been half the player he was. This isn't anti Arsenal, I mean, people forget that Martial cost an absolute fortune for a player of his age and stature (or lack of it) in the market he was signed in. Has he yet to live up to this value? Nope. But people have forgotten just how expensive he was due to how fees have rocketed since. But you can only judge the success based on the market they were signed in. Things have changed very quickly and the market is quite distorted, so some players have had an easy ride.
The only mistake I've made regarding Lacazette is his record against the top 6.
Everything else is fact. 14 goals first season, 13 in second. Not a first team regular. Not an international. Not achieved what he was signed to achieve.
He's not been worth the money they paid. Still a decent player though, but not the kind that will get them back where they want to be.
I'd be more than happy if Pepe is of a similar ilk as he'd be overpriced and won't have dramatically improved them.
Somebody could check transfer market to see if average transfer fees have indeed gone up and by much...off the top of my head, the top 6 are paying roughly the same fees they were paying in 16/17, what changed is the mindset
It didn't the examples that they used are actually the proof of it. Van Dijk went for the amount of money that Southampton asked before the Neymar move, Laporte went for the value of his clause wich is standard with Athletic, Mbappé's deal was at +150m before Neymar's deal and he went for the amount of money that Monaco asked from the beginning.
And in that article they conveniently don't mention Aubameyang, Lenglet who was transfered through his clause like Laporte or Arthur who wasn't particularly expensive and there is many other players.
Eh?
Liverpool went from paying £30m for Mane and £40m for Salah (Both of whom arrived with more pedigree than Pepe) to paying £75m for a centre half from Southampton and more than £60m for a keeper.
Madrid have just paid €100m for a nearly 30 year old left winger with one year left on his contract.
Transfer fees have gone up with the new TV deals but it happened before Neymar's deal. If anything Mbappé transfer is the one that should be used as an example because it was the fruit of a bidding war between PSG and Real Madrid, on top of Monaco asking for +150m from the beginning.
Release clauses written pre Neymar. Now release clauses for such players have rocketed.
I get your general point. I accept that Neymar's transfer changed a few things but didn't necessarily impact every transfer. Transfer fees were on an increase already. I think each situation has to be looked at separately (the league the player is joining, the club the player is leaving, the number of years left on the contract etc etc...). For instance Aulas sells expensively and increasingly his most promising players that came through their ranks for high fees (Tolisso for 40-42 millions euros and Ndombele over 60millions euros). The difference in fee between the two is also affected by the talent difference between 2 (Ndombele getting already called up several times for France before his big move whereas it wasn't as many for Tolisso before moving to Bayern) among other criteria.
When you say stuff like that the now Spurs players would have cost twice as less if it happened pre Neymar, I just find it too simplistic. Neymar's deal didn't affect everything it so I wouldn't use as a point of reference
I didn't say that.
This part confused me then "Ndombele this summer just cost £55m - £60m. Are you saying he would have cost the same the summer than Lacazette signed for Arsenal, and pre Neymar? Of course not. He's have been around £20m - £25m cheaper." I thought you were talking about him towards the end
Not really, no. It's a player by player consideration, Real Madrid players have had ludicrous clauses way before the Neymar deal who had a fairly low one for a reason that can't really be explained. Madrid put a 1Bn clause on Benzema in 2016 It depends on how much leverage a player has when he negotiate his contract.
Saul Niguez signed a 9 years contract in July 2017 with a 150m euros release clause too, so before Neymar also
There are many examples and a lot more than anything linked to Neymar/Mbappé. It's clear that every transfers are mainly in their own bubble with the overall amount of money in football affecting the fees. I don't even understand why people try to put it on Neymar when clubs are signing bigger commercial deals and TV deals have significantly increased, why would you ignore the most obvious thing?