This goes for the whole fecking world, tbf
(us interfering in other countries affairs, i mean)
North Korea
- Thread starter Raoul
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(us interfering in other countries affairs, i mean)
Damn NK have mastered hologram.
Damn who would have thought that people can have surgeries and need time to recover from them?
How is that exactly the point?
You're the one who brought up it being ok people wanting communism (which I agree with) and also said the relationship between the 2 Koreas would be a lot better without the US.
I am generally incredibly disdainful of the USA and its foreign policy but have major problems blaming everything on the 'West' (whatever that means in this context) , especially in cases like this where there wouldn't even a South Korea without the US.
Such strange whataboutism. Saudi Arabia are also complete scum, what that has to do with NK and its programme I don't know. You make it seem like both Japan and SK would be ecstatic with NK and the Kim dynasty if it wasn't for the pesky Americans.
I find arguments that West= bad and therefore anyone opposing must be good just as tiring and lacking nuance as people who genuinely believe everything 'the West' does is great and altruistic and those on the opposite side are evil.
I imagine Japan may be a bit more complex but I'm not aware of an obligation for SK to have Americans stationed there. In a relatively flourishing democracy, which sees a former leader in jail, I'm sure people could vote in more people pushing for the removal of American forces.
I don't think the USA really cares if Korea reunifies either so again, not sure what the point is there.
I have been to South Korea many times. The main reason why US is in South Korea has got nothing to do with North Korea any more. The South can handle themselves against the North all by themselves if there is no nuclear war. The Chinese will not let the North attack the south and kill the Chinese business.
I bring Saudi Arabia because it's a reprehensible regime. A much more reprehensible regime than the Chinese yet is being supported to the hilt by the Americans.
The Americans do care about not making the south and the north making peace. The South and North wanted a declaration to end the state of war between the two countries. USA refused to do that for many reasons and the biggest was their fear of South trying to dilute the US military presence in South Korea. The North is not any threat to the USA now and really at any stage.
Eventually it's going to happen just like it's happening in the Philippines. These countries will get their independence from big brother.
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Gutted tbh.
We live in an upside down world. Imagine any other president saying this
What a dotard
the world would be a better place if his administration had also improved relations in other adversarial countries
Thank you Freddy Foreshadowing.
Trump’s attempt to reach a detente with North Korea is not a bad thing and I don’t know why people pretend otherwise.
I agree with you. Peace is always good. To some people it's always a zero sum game. Why does one country try to have control over others. What does the US get in by subjugation of other countries? Let the Koreans make peace.
It would be if it were a legitimate attempt and not a photo-op that results in Kim gaining the international legitimacy of being seen with a US President (not to mention massive domestic propaganda fodder for himself), with no deals or anything else substantial to show for either side.
When your enemy made peace with your other enemy. You're kinda fecked.
Most countries are using proxy wars and destabilization to help secure their own stability.
A peaceful world is not an ideal world when you're making a profit from selling security services, guns, and maintaining your lifeline by virtue of being the strongest in the hood
Seems like shots fired on the border between north and south.
2020
2020
I've also been to SK quite a few times, as well as China and Japan but again, I don't see what that has to do with the topic.
Yes in a 1-1 war, South Korea would clearly win but the point is to avoid conflict in the first place. The presence of the US is an extra deterrent.
Meh, I mean they're both definitely reprehensible regimes, I don't really see the point in trying to compare. They both execute their own citizens, they're both a one party state with extreme surveillance of their people, they both influence other countries around them, both don't really allow religious freedom and they both don't allow much freedom of opinion. They both have day to day life to some extent misrepresented in western media. And they both actually have quite significant support within their own countries, despite what many people think.
And yeah the Americans are hypocritical, big whoop. Literally every country is. Look at the Chinese complaining about other countries banning flights from China at the beginning of this whole thing, only to turn around and ban most foreigners from their country once they've gotten it under control.
Yeah, I also don't think the Americans really care whether there's peace or not there. Are you referring to the 2018 negotiations there? Hardly a long time ago, in a conflict that has lasted over 70 years now.
I just find it funny to say there would have been peace without the US. I guess there would have been, in the shape of a unified Korea under the Kim dynasty now. Seemingly that would be a better outcome for some though...
I don't think I've ever met a South Korean who feels they are in some way beholden to the USA, especially on a day to day basis. They live their life without really thinking about it.
What's the alternative? The only way this thing is going to get resolved (without catastrophic loss of civilian life, anyway) is through diplomacy. Trump on an ego-trip is still better than what any US president has done since Clinton's possible breakthrough - which unfortunately was not pushed through before Bush succeeded him and abandoned it - in regards to even attempting to secure a meaningful arrangement or cooling of tensions with Pyongyang.
The alternative to fruitless photo-ops for domestic consumption? Continued diplomacy by way of restarting the six party talks. The Chinese and Russians are interested in resuming negotiations, so that would seem to be the logical next step.
Yes the Chinese and the Russians are interested in bringing the war to a close. Some people may not understand that there is no declaration of a piece there. It's only a cessation of hostilities. Certainly both Koreas are interested in bringing it to a close. The only reason why it's not done so is because the North doesn't trust the USA. Certainly more so after what happened to Gazzafi.
Would they give up their nuclear weapons? I don't think so. Would they agree for international inspection? I think so given a good deal. But would anyone trust the Americans after what Trump did to the Iranian deal? I don't think so.
This is why the only way there could be peace is for the Americans to leave south Korea.
Would they give up their nuclear weapons? I don't think so. Would they agree for international inspection? I think so given a good deal. But would anyone trust the Americans after what Trump did to the Iranian deal? I don't think so.
This is why the only way there could be peace is for the Americans to leave south Korea.
Only it wasn't fruitless. NK halted its nuclear and ballistic missile testing and the US halted its ostentatious and provocative war-gaming. There was serious tension that was dissipated due to the results of the summit. The unfortunate thing is it seems like Trump allowed himself to be persuaded by the likes of Pompeo and Bolton after the meeting to back away from the steps towards the detente. It's worth quoting Bruce Cumings, one the most prominent Western historians and commentators on the situation on the Korean peninsula: 'I give [Trump] a lot of credit for breaking through at the Singapore summit...it is a major watershed in modern Korean history and US relations with Korea. It’s a real watershed. And I’m glad it’s happening.' And in March last year he also claimed 'so far his influence on the Korean peninsula has been good'. It's just disingenuous and ignorant of the history of US-NK relations to dismiss the summit as nothing more than a photo-op.
Yes, temporarily and without any long term agreements in place, which would put everything back to square one the moment Trump's replacement doesn't write love letters to Kim. Unfortunately, that's not a strategy. There has a to be a long term agreement in place that all the major powers are a party to creating, otherwise we will continue to be in this cycle of improvisation depending on who is leading which country at the time. A long term agreement for the most part, takes a large portion of the uncertainty off the table. Photo ops that result in nothing other than providing fodder for Kim and Trump's domestic propaganda aren't going to move the needle on this issue.
Did you miss the one where they didn’t utilize diplomacy ahead of time or include other powers, and the meeting collapsed in embarrassing fashion because no terms were agreed?
This smacks of giving Mussolini credit for the trains running on time.
So we can only credit Trump if he gets a long-term agreement? The point is has Trump taken positive steps towards a detente with North Korea that have eased tension in the short-term and can facilitate a meaningful agreement in the long-term, be that under his presidency or his successor? The answer is yes. Clinton had a deal in place that Bush abandoned as he had no interest in treating North Korea diplomatically, that doesn't mean we criticise Clinton's administration for its efforts to secure a breakthrough. You're back to dismissing it as nothing more than a 'photo-op' but I think I'll stick with the assessment of Cumings. I've followed his work for a long time and you won't find many people more clued up on US-NK relations than him.
I'll bring you back to my original point - 'Trump on an ego-trip is still better than what any US president has done since Clinton's possible breakthrough - which unfortunately was not pushed through before Bush succeeded him and abandoned it - in regards to even attempting to secure a meaningful arrangement or cooling of tensions with Pyongyang.' Would you like to challenge what I have said there? If not, I fail to see your point. I don't believe I claimed that Trump is a hero who will end all tension on the Korean peninsula. I said he's doing better than his predecessors, which is a very low yardstick by which to judge him but nevertheless an appropriate one, and to criticise him for holding a summit with Kim Jong-un just seems like criticism for the sake of it because it's Trump.
The point is if his ego-trip meeting had no long term plan and didn’t include the necessary regional powers, then it was pointless. It was a desperate attempt at a signature win on the international stage, and possibly set back progress several years in backdoor diplomacy we’re not privy to.
Hence, a photo-op in the end... and counterproductive.
Spot on. This has all the hallmarks of a temporary, amateur-hour reprieve that will quickly unravel once Trump leaves office or Kim gets bored with Trump's antics.
I think the problem is exactly what Trump said before his election. Trump is an idiot in many ways but in this instance he should have pushed his gut feeling which was to bring peace. He is right in that there is a deep state and when President of the USA don't follow them it gets very difficult for them. Clinton had no issues with Russia joining NATO but the government pushed back. Eisenhower was spot on about his warnings on the military industries influence. This is the main reason why there is no peace on earth.
Ah right, so meaningless conjecture then versus the tangible result of an informal moratorium on NK's testing of atomic bombs and ICBMs and the US halting provocative war-gaming displays, and the assessment of an expert in Cumings. Nope, not persuaded I'm afraid.
I see we're back to the photo-op discussion. The US policy towards NK since its establishment has been one of isolation and refusing to engage constructively - now that's a policy that has been truly and demonstrably counterproductive, achieving nothing but acrimony and a heightened threat of war. To dismiss the summit as a photo-op and counterproductive in that context just displays ignorance of that history. But apparently because that one meeting didn't magically solve decades of deep-rooted hostility we must condemn it because Trump bad.
So, I think it's fair to say that we have all heard stories of what life is like in North Korea (NK).
I used to think that these stories/myths were over exaggerated and that things could not be that bad.
Here's a video which I stumbled on and found it riveting. It interviews 2 people who have "escaped" NK and they give some examples of what it's like to live there.
Some highlights:
famine is a serious problem - famine is usually a problem in war torn countries, but I did not expect this to be the case in NK.
electricity, for some homes, is almost non-existent - especially bizarre when you think that their neighbours - South Korea - are one of the most advanced countries on the planet.
I used to think that these stories/myths were over exaggerated and that things could not be that bad.
Here's a video which I stumbled on and found it riveting. It interviews 2 people who have "escaped" NK and they give some examples of what it's like to live there.
Some highlights:
famine is a serious problem - famine is usually a problem in war torn countries, but I did not expect this to be the case in NK.
electricity, for some homes, is almost non-existent - especially bizarre when you think that their neighbours - South Korea - are one of the most advanced countries on the planet.
The account is consistent with other accounts.
I highly recommend the Arirang News interviews with Thae Yong-Ho, former DPRK Deputy Amb. to the UK. He defected a couple of years ago. Thae confirms much of what Andrei Lankov wrote in his book, The Real North Korea: Life in the Failed Stalinist Uptopia. Episode 1 below:
I highly recommend the Arirang News interviews with Thae Yong-Ho, former DPRK Deputy Amb. to the UK. He defected a couple of years ago. Thae confirms much of what Andrei Lankov wrote in his book, The Real North Korea: Life in the Failed Stalinist Uptopia. Episode 1 below:
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Could this thread be added to the North Korea thread in Current Events? @Raoul
Thanks!
I once read almost all government revenue is devoted to the military.
That will be nonsense. They’ll almost certainly be one of the biggest spenders, if not the biggest, on military as a percentage of GDP though. Still won’t be anywhere near to almost all though. Maybe a fifth at most? Probably fluctuates quite a bit too. Don’t forget they still provide things like free healthcare + education including university
Art of the deal.
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Oh ffs can this fat little twat go one week without being a fat little twat?!
Are there any recent confirmed sightings at all? Like independent or obvious ones?
It does seem to be his sister who's getting all the headlines... perhaps she has taken power and is staging a public transition?
All seems rather odd - if I had to bet she is in charge now for one reason or another.